Coming up on 94 hours of Standby for the Month.

[CA1900]

Someone told me it is very discouraged, is that true?

No, not at all!

We have a 12-hour rule, so on short overnights, there's no opportunity. But on anything longer than 12, sure, have at it. I'd say the majority of the guys I fly with are up for a couple drinks after work.

 

[imacdog]

They own us for 7 days is total BULLSH!T. Doesn't anybody else see a problem with that kind of attitude?

This is the on-demand world, sis. We're getting paid to be available. If you're hungry, get food. If you're too tired to fly, fatigue. Beyond that, this is what we signed up for.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Why don't I leave? Cause i am not stupid, I wouldn't leave unless I found a better job

You've been bitching about NJA since you got here. Why don't you do us a favor and STFU until you move on to your dream job at JetBlue?

 

[kman]

You've been bitching about NJA since you got here. Why don't you do us a favor and STFU until you move on to your dream job at JetBlue?

Grump please remove that stick from ur arse, and MAKE ME STFU! Jetblue? What the he!! are you talking about? (Also I let another 2 guys use my account, so they don't have to pay the 10 bucks)

I know this is FI.com, but namecalling and telling me the STFU is so childish and does nothing but show me what true proffesionals you guys truly are. I bet ur a true pleasure to fly with.

When the NJ MAFIA puts a hit out on me, for speaking the truth. Remember me guys, remember me.

 

[NJACrewservicer]

And its that tone right there is what gives the people upstairs a bad name. You didn't give us his preceding days duty just made a blanket comment hoping to get a rise and say look at these whiney bitchy pilots.

Lets take what I've been doing for the last couple of days. Sure its been stby but our on times have been setting us up for night flights. Then this morning its a 9am show, but for the last 5 days I've been shut off at midnight so now I have to reprogram my body and say you're not sleeping in now you're getting up.

I toss, I turn I look at the clock and say to myself if I go to bed right now I can still pull off 5hrs of sleep. Toss turn, adjust the thermostat, 4 hrs I can get 4 hrs if I go to bed right now. Oh please let me go to sleep.

So yeah our sleep gets messed up and this is a domestic trip. But I wouldn't condemn the crew until you've walked a mile in their shoes, stayed at the hotel and specifically talked to them.

We're type A personalities. We want to get the job done. Unfortunately my body sometimes isn't in sync with my mind.

The crewmembers stereotype 'management' and 'scheduling' as much as we stereotype crew members. It's a two-way street bro.

But I wouldn't condemn the crew until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

Touche'

 

[RNObased]

Exactly...and it's not just "back in the day". It still happens.

Also, you may see 3 or 4 hot spares in TEB. But, remember, we have different owners who require different aircraft. We are not un-neccesarily going to upgrade an Ultra owner to a Falcon because we didn't want more than 1 crew sitting on standby. The same goes for the Flacon owner who refuses to fly on an Ultra.


When you start seeing 3 or 4 XL's with nothing to do, than bring it to their attention.

So we bring it someone's attention and what happens.....nothing. Why because the "number" haven't been made for the day.

Or it is 1 am in the morning at KVNY and you ask them what you are backing up, and the response is some BS about a west coast depture. So you fire up the lap top and go to Flightaware and check the WEST COAST. Guess what nothing, shocking. You haven't put in you time yet, it is all about the numbers, not the people.

 

[fischman]

Just had a guy fatigue that was given 16 hours of rest...2 hours at the hotel on duty...show at the fbo 1 hour prior to flight...did a .9 rev leg...then fatigued.

:crying:

There are a 1000 things that could cause a crew member to do this.

Wedding or other function at the hotel?

Softball tournaments have been going on all over the country lately.

A couple on their honeymoon next door?

etc...

 

[NJACrewservicer]

So we bring it someone's attention and what happens.....nothing. Why because the "number" haven't been made for the day.

Or it is 1 am in the morning at KVNY and you ask them what you are backing up, and the response is some BS about a west coast depture. So you fire up the lap top and go to Flightaware and check the WEST COAST. Guess what nothing, shocking. You haven't put in you time yet, it is all about the numbers, not the people.

I'll tell you like I told Diesel on page 3....

"Or, it could be that I'm just talking out of my a$$ because I don't work in that department. It's all speculation on my part. Who know's....maybe you're correct with the availability matrix that your claiming."

 

[NJACrewservicer]

There are a 1000 things that could cause a crew member to do this.

Wedding or other function at the hotel?

Softball tournaments have been going on all over the country lately.

A couple on their honeymoon next door?

etc...

Don't take what I said out of context. I am in no way, shape or form questioning the validity of the fatigue call....the company and union have made great strides to retrain our thought process when it comes to questioning fatigue calls. My point to that was that even when we give hotel shows...people still fatigue. Wouldn't it make more sense FROM A COMPANY STAND POINT to give them a FBO show....when we don't know they are going to fatigue?

 

[Willy21]

They own us for 7 days is total BULLSH!T. Doesn't anybody else see a problem with that kind of attitude?

You get paid a salary. If they say sit at the FBO you sit at the FBO. If they say fly TUS-VNY you fly TUS-VNY. Like somebody else said, this is an on-demand business. They are paying you to be ready to fly ASAP. They are buying your time so therefore they own your time. I choose to look at it this way because it keeps me from going crazy wondering what they will do to me next. All I know is when I leave the house every other Saturday I will be returned by midnight the following Friday or the company pays me 2 extended days. The time in between the company tells me where to be and when to be there. Again they own my time. As long as they play by the contract I am fine with that. I might not like it but there is nothing I can do.

A waste management report, tell me how the company is going to see it as a waste of their resources by having you sit reserve at a FBO on a flight asset duty assignment?

In the future when we negotiate a new contract and the Wilson Center calls to survey you, tell them what you are willing to give up to not sit at a FBO. If enough people see eye to eye with you and are willing to give away something to get that perk then we will stop sitting at FBOs. Until then schedueling will sit us.

 

[realityman]

Willy,

thanks for articulating my thoughts better than I could have.

the only exception is that i don't like the phrase 'they own us for 7 days'. They don't own me. They pay me to do a job. It may seem like a small thing, or semantics, but it's not.

But the whole concept of 'they pay me to do a job' is where the disagreement on this thread lies. As it's currently in the contract, sitting standby as a flight asset in an FBO is part of the job. KMAN doesn't like it. Probably most of us aren't thrilled with it. But it's part of the job.

And whether you voted 'yes' or 'no' on the '05 contract or IBB in '07, it's what we all live by now.

OF COURSE there's room for improvement. If they paid us $1 million/year and we only worked 5 days a month for it, we could still find room for improvement. We're pilots, right?
What got me involved was the use of the word 'abuse' at the start of this thread. I simply pointed out that a typical FBO standby, the way most FBO's are outfitted, hardly qualifies as abuse. Our duties include flying AND availability to fly while on the road, for a predetermined time period each day. If they choose to fly us or make us standby for a flight, it's not abuse. Are we abusing the system if we order four crew meals for a six hour duty day? I'd argue that you're abusing your body, but the contract allows it, so it's not abusing the crew food system, the caterers, the company, the FM's, or anyone else in the process.

I never said NJA was perfect. I never said some FBO's aren't so nice for sitting around. I never said people shouldn't complain, or bring things to the attention of people in power. I'm just saying that the company exercising their contractual rights that puts us in a situation where at most places its pretty comfortable hardly qualifies as abuse. Especially when we can, without penalty, call fatigued if the sitting around tires us out too much.

KMAN wants to be on duty, but be able to do whatever he wants if he's not flying. I still say it sounds like he was hoping this job would be an all-expenses paid vacation every other week.

 

[Diesel]

No problem crewservicer i was just a little exhausted from staring at the alarm clock.

It is interesting that the two companies have a totally different view on FBO stby.

 

[kman]

No, i don't expect a vacation, like we have the time really to do anything anyways. Where do you guys get off on telling me I expect a vacation.

With out the crew rot standby, our week is a vacation? You guys must be robots. Wow your vacations really must suck.

Again, how is not wanting to be sitting standby when there are 5 crew sitting, expecting a vacation? You guys call me names and tell me to leave, but you can't even answer a simple question.

All I want is not to be sitting around just to make some numbers look better. Kept on with the STFU, whiner, Leave, cr@p, you guys are true professionals.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Shhh, Diesel. Let's just keep that on the down-low. Wouldn't want some whiners to muck THAT up too.

 

[Willy21]

the only exception is that i don't like the phrase 'they own us for 7 days'. They don't own me. They pay me to do a job. It may seem like a small thing, or semantics, but it's not.

Point taken. That is the way that gets me through the week. I guess it works for this lowly SIC. Maybe someday when I make the pic money I can say they "pay me to do a job." Until then I will pull gear and fetch coffee. How do you like yours?

 

[realityman]

KMAN,

Show me where I called you any names.

I said if you aren't happy, you might consider employment elsewhere.

I didn't tell you anything like STFU. I said that every time you open your mouth on this message board it's negative.

But it was YOU that said you could be running, swimming, sleeping in a bed, eating meals that you want when you want to, and other such things a number of posts ago.
Naturally, you can do any or all of those things in your rest time, if you so choose. But you're complaining that you can't do them when you're on duty. And you referred to the fact that you can't do those things as 'abuse'.

Maybe what scheduling does sometimes is wasteful. Maybe it could be described as useless. Or unnecessarily redundant. But abuse? Hardly.

If you fly trips, or sit standby at the FBO, or sit standby at the hotel, it's what we're paid for. If you really don't think it's a vacation, then what difference does it make where the standby takes place? Yeah, FBO's, especially crappy ones, can be fatiguing. So call fatigued when you're too tired to fly. That's part of the job too.

I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that we are NOT paid to go running, swimming, lounge in luxury, sun ourselves at the hotel pool, or any other number of leisure activities you may want to do. If you can do them during your time off, great. Otherwise, what's the big deal?

Personally, I like the numbers matrix. Make it look like we're doing something. I'd hate for them to say, "Gee, we have x number of pilots sitting in hotels doing nothing every day. Maybe we can operate more efficiently with less pilots." Hope you're not too close to the bottom of the seniority list when that happens.

 

[realityman]

Point taken. That is the way that gets me through the week. I guess it works for this lowly SIC. Maybe someday when I make the pic money I can say they "pay me to do a job." Until then I will pull gear and fetch coffee. How do you like yours?

Hate coffee. How about fetching me some Gatorade? It'll help after my on-duty running.

 

[Willy21]

"The water sucks, it really really sucks"

 

[kman]

a·buse a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse

The abuse I was talking about is the massive crew rot mission they have put us on for the last several months. When I use the word abuse, im am talking about the misuse of crews for standby for punishment and for the sake of just so the numbers look good.

Prime example, TEB 3 weeks ago, at least 5 good airplane on standby. We fly in and get 3 hours of standby fine what ever. Another crew(same ac type) shows up an hour after gets assigned 4 hours of standby. About two hours into it, they release the later crew for a 17 hours overnight to standby the following night, we know this because most of the crews where hanging out in the lounge. We get extended two hours into a 10 hour turn. WTF? The second crew even started 2 hours afters us( about 9am ). Would you think maybe this would be the misuse of a crew? Abuse.

 

[fischman]

Looks like we have a volunteer for the negotiating committee.

 

[kman]

gladly

 

[realityman]

a·buse a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse

The abuse I was talking about is the massive crew rot mission they have put us on for the last several months. When I use the word abuse, im am talking about the misuse of crews for standby for punishment and for the sake of just so the numbers look good.

Prime example, TEB 3 weeks ago, at least 5 good airplane on standby. We fly in and get 3 hours of standby fine what ever. Another crew(same ac type) shows up an hour after gets assigned 4 hours of standby. About two hours into it, they release the later crew for a 17 hours overnight to standby the following night, we know this because most of the crews where hanging out in the lounge. We get extended two hours into a 10 hour turn. WTF? The second crew even started 2 hours afters us( about 9am ). Would you think maybe this would be the misuse of a crew? Abuse.

Well now, this appears to be a little different from what we were talking about. I thought we were just discussing standby in general.

Under the circumstances you described above, I suppose I'd be pretty angry too, and would want some follow-up into what that was about. Did you have the scheduling committee look into it? Did they get back to you about it? If so, what did they say was going on?

Not asking those questions in any sarcastic way whatsoever. I'm honestly curious if you got some answers about it, because I actually agree (Gasp!!) with you that the situation you described is wrong.

But as for standby in general, I did a lot of it this week. I'll sit wherever they tell me to until I'm tired or we reach the end of my tour. That's what my salary gets them.

 

[Freight Dog]

There's nothing wrong with trying to improve on what you already have, but it never ceases to amaze me how good some people have it and will continue to piss and moan about "abuse" and how they are not being treated right.

There are many of us who would give a left nut to even get a shot at an interview at NJA... hell, I've been applying since the summer of 2006, updated, and then had to send another app in 6 months ago... updated that one a month ago... and not a snowball chance in hell to even get a shot at an interview.

Now, here you are... bitching about sitting at Signature or Atlantic or whatever FBO where you get fed a good meal, where you have Lazy Boys to chill out in, internet access, plasma TV and movies, you name it!

Bring your own laptop and you can run your own business during down time while NJA is paying you to sit at an FBO. It's all about how you manage your time and you can make the best of it without coming off like a spoiled rotten whiny beyatch.

Kman, hate to say it bro, but if you don't like it... take a leave of absence and try 121 for a nice reality check. For an even better reality check, try 121 supplemental... now you're really having fun! Watch how fast you'll run back to NJA and stop your whining.

You are getting a good salary, phenomenal benefits, great equipment, outstanding backing, outstanding training, great accommodations, ability to even stutter "fatigue" and you get a no-questions-asked break. Appreciate what you have bro... many of us can only hope to "get abused" the way you do.

Like I said, nothing wrong with trying to further improve what you have, but don't come across like a whiner.

 

[Captain Morgan]

103 for Aug

I don't know if it was posted before and I'm not going to go through the whole damn post (waste of time), but it really amazes me how many people are jumping to the fractionals and believe it's the holy grail. They then find out what corporate aviation is really like. You sit around a lot! That's corporate aviation in a nutshell. You are taken care of and fed well, but you sit. I hope people that are NJA, Avantair, Flexjet, etc. hopefuls know what they are getting into. I'm not saying it's a bad job, just that, that's the way the job is, and some people don't mind it and some people do. Kman, you should've flown 121 if you'd rather fly more, but then you'd be feasting on Ramen noodles at starving wages.

 

[Captain Morgan]

BTW, when I was at a 121 airline before I went to a corporate flight department I weighed 185 lbs. I am coming back to 121 from the corporate lifestyle and I weigh about 225 lbs. Life on the road was good, what can I say.

 

[kman]

Did the 121 thing for almost 9 years, Whatever on the whiner and beotch comment. Just shows what true pros you are.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'd say pro enough to know when someone's needlessly whining, especially in today's environment.

I'd say count your blessings as thousands of pilots would just love to have your problems.

 

[Mephisto]

Kman, I hate to break it to you, but the MAJOR flaw in your argument is that there is some metric that exists someplace that shows scheduling is doing a better job by having you sit ready at the FBO instead of the hotel.

Please post evidence of the existence of such a metric, and not anecdotal "somebody said they saw it once" evidence.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Grump please remove that stick from ur arse, and MAKE ME STFU! Jetblue? What the he!! are you talking about? (Also I let another 2 guys use my account, so they don't have to pay the 10 bucks)

I know this is FI.com, but namecalling and telling me the STFU is so childish and does nothing but show me what true proffesionals you guys truly are. I bet ur a true pleasure to fly with.

When the NJ MAFIA puts a hit out on me, for speaking the truth. Remember me guys, remember me.

Okay tough guy, here you go:

Think I am one of the few that are going back to the airlines, Its a great job, but its not for me good luck.

At most of the majors A senior captain or Fo 10-20 years of seniority should be able to day trips or only working 11-12 days a month not factoring in vacation. Yes i know I would have to live in base for the greatest QOL. But with commutter clauses, day trips, 4-5 days of less work a month, and the fact that I have 38 years to give, Right now is the time for me to leave.

DOES ANYONE KNOW AROUND WHEN THE NEXT JETBLUE OPEN HOUSE WILL BE? I would appreciate the info.

I never said it was a terrible job, I think this is a pretty dang good job, and will get better down the road, but if i get the chance and the timing is right I will take my shot.

Does anyone on here from JetBlue know the specific details of when, where, and what time the fair is? Also where you go to get the bus or how that all works? I last heard it was going to be April 12th, but I dont know what time it is, and exactly where you need to go in Orlando to attend.

You need to tell your "friends" to stop being so cheap and fork out the ten bucks. They're making you look like an idiot.

Otherwise, STFU and move on, whiner.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Dana White and the UFC should be calling shortly to stage the cage match......

This is getting GOOD!