Comair Vote Results ???

[JustaNumber]

The only way to make it work is to have a single ALPA bargaining agent that negotiates with the "brand" management (ie Delta, United, Northwest, etc.).
Having 4, 5, or 6 separate MECs compete within the brand is a losing proposition from the start.

That sounds like an interesting idea. But how would you go about setting it up? Especially since you're dealing with a multitude of airlines within a brand, some having the Teamsters, some having no union, all having contracts that expire on different dates. Would everyone have to agree to bring ALPA on their property? Would ALPA have to change its representational structure, in order to create one single "Super MEC"? How would the Super MEC handle a situation where a single pilot group still insisted on flying for less than its brothers? (You think the fights are bad on this msg board, wait til the individual airlines start fighting with each other over the next 79 seater at the local MEC meetings). And could the major airline then do an end run around this Super MEC by contracting with someone new who wasn't represented, or creating another holding company ala G-o-j-e-t-s? Could this actually work?

Tell me more. I like the idea so far.

 

[davessn763]

Dave, are you happy with your "NO" vote now? Looking back...did it make sense?



Everyone wants a sacrificial lamb...as long as it isn't them. Ultimately that will be up to XJT management and the XJT pilots.

-Neal

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do, there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion, mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this. I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest. Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.
With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do,

Everyone clearly had to make a personal choice. Nothing wrong with your vote or your choice.

there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion,

There are less of those variables today than under C'97 and every contract has those variables unfortunately.

mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this.

Yes, we could have brought all FO's to 60% and in doing that, your CA rate today would be less than it is. Squeeze one end of the balloon and the other gets smaller. We had to make difficult choices in how to balance out the money. FO's all (with the exception of first year FO's) got a bigger percentage increase than Captains. Remember we had a difficult starting point with our FO percentage of CA on the rate.

I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest.

I believe there were one or two years where the rate was less. But did you compare 401k plans? Scheduling sections? Vacation sections? Scope sections? etc.

Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.

Of course there are those times...though we laid out the risks to doing that and it appears those risks held true.

With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

Time will tell. We definitely have the bullseye on our head now that CMR has had their contract gutted. I am definitely glad, however, that we didn't vote no out of principle to hold out for the illusory "release by the NMB" or some "bigger pay package by the company." One must balance the risk versus the reward and I am glad we ratified our contract when we did because the alternative surely wouldn't have been better in my personal view.

-Neal

 

[mrnolmts]

Management keeps us fighting amongst ourselves with the INTENT of preventing us from forming a common defense. They have divided and are in the process of conquering. Do you think maybe they discussed this with each other and it might even be a PLAN???

"Alright Fred, nice job with Comair. Next it'll be Bryan's turn to hold the Comair concessions up to the Republic pilots and after that...let's see..oh, yeah, it'll be Johnny's turn again. And by the way, Johnny, that Freedom thing was brilliant. Look how well it's working for Hulas. OK, meeting adjorned. Next week same time? "

I believe this answers that question:
http://www.regionalhub.com/?a=1&id=3848

 

[172driver]

definition: Flying Baffoons; Comair pilots that woted yes to concessions, most of which were not there in 01' other wise they would of voted NO!

This is probably bait but what the heck.

I have no proof but I would guess that at least 75% of the yes voters, probably more, were here in '01. They have a lot more to lose than the junior folks who can easily replace their CMR wages by working at Sears, Home Depot, etc.

 

[D'Angelo]

This is probably bait but what the heck.

I have no proof but I would guess that at least 75% of the yes voters, probably more, were here in '01. They have a lot more to lose than the junior folks who can easily replace their CMR wages by working at Sears, Home Depot, etc.

Finally someone who gets the BIG PICTURE. I am still waiting for my thank you note from 49% of the group. We are still middle of the pack with the new wages. Better than bein on the street

 

[D'Angelo]

and another thing all these people screaming about holding the bar.. How many were just waiting to pounce on the flying that would have opened up? I guarantee you mesa, chq, hell even asa would have been all over that like $hit on a fly. Everyone is so mad because they werent able to swoop in and get some mo growth.

 

[Sucka]

I am ashamed

As a CMR pilot I am ashamed and saddened by our pilot group... The Comair name on my wings just lost all of its luster... We do not have the right to poke fun at and complain about the "bottom feeders" any more... CMR pilots voted to lower the profession.

 

[172driver]

Finally someone who gets the BIG PICTURE. I am still waiting for my thank you note from 49% of the group. We are still middle of the pack with the new wages. Better than bein on the street

I think you might be reading me wrong, as I certainly don't see the 'big picture' the same way you do. I am a first officer and, like I said, my new wage is easily replaced with almost any job out there. I believe what we do is slightly more skilled, requires a great deal more training, and carries a lot more responsibility than most $30K jobs. I was definitely a no voter because I had nothing to lose. I should be making $41, $1.75 PD, retirement. I am now making $31, $1.50 PD, no retirement.

BTW, with the lost yr of seniority from the Feb LOA, we are far below "middle of the pack." We are actually just above Mesa, trolling the bottom of the muck. I am embarrassed to wear my uniform and can no longer look other pilots in the eye. I understand why people voted yes, especially the captains, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group of pilots.

I have also lost respect for the group who struck in '01, most of who, I believe, voted yes for this proposal. I now understand that they never truly felt that their jobs were on the line in '01, but were simply using their leverage. When their jobs were actually threatened in '06, they folded like a house of cards.

 

[flyinglow]

The vote was pretty darn close. Is anyone investigating probably fraud?

 

[surplus1]

I was definitely a no voter because I had nothing to lose.

That one sentence is the key to everything else you have said. YOU had nothing to lose, therefore it just didn't matter to you what any of your fellow pilots had to lose did it? Congratulations! You've just told me more than I ever wanted to know.

Because you believe that YOU could replace your job at Home Depot or MacDonalds it just doesn't matter to you that people who have put in 15, 20 or more years of their lives can't replace their jobs, not at Home Depot or anywhere else. It doesn't matter to YOU what happens to anyone else at Comair as long as YOU can satisfy YOUR personal wants of a few more dollars per hour. I don't know if that's what you meant but it IS what you've said. What a shallow perspective.

Tell me; what sacrifice did you make to get the dollars your were receiving? What did YOU contibute to earning any of the contractual benefits that you have been enjoying? The answer is NOTHING, and you know it! You my friend are a free-loader, which is why you have "nothing to lose".

Tell me please; if you DID have "something to lose" does that mean you would have voted YES? It sure sounds like it. All you've done is convince me that you really have no understanding whatever of what it means to have a real spine. You're just clueless and have a lot of growing up to do.

By what you said you have lead me to believe that the one and only consideration that affected your decision was YOU ... and to he!! with everybody else. I ask you: should that make me feel that you're my "brother"? Somehow it doesn't.

Well, I'm one of the people that voted YES. I didn't do it because of what I had to lose and certainly not because of what I had to gain. I did it because, right or wrong, I firmly believed that all 6,000 of Comair's people would "lose" if I didn't and our airline would cease to exist. I felt that the lives and jobs of ALL the good people that I work with were at stake and a lot more important than just my own needs.

Contrary to your belief I know a lot of captains who voted NO due to their principles. None of them has told me that they voted that way because they had "nothing to lose" for they all have much to lose. I respect their decision because it is honest. I do not respect your decsion for you have made it totally clear that it is selfish, and nothing more.

Maybe I am wrong about the potential results of a NO majority; we'll never know. But, I'm not wrong about why I made the decision. Your decision may have been correct and my fears may never have come to pass. However, voting NO simply because YOU had "nothing to lose" is not only the wrong reason, it is disgusting.

I have also lost respect for the group who struck in '01, most of who, I believe, voted yes for this proposal. I now understand that they never truly felt that their jobs were on the line in '01, but were simply using their leverage. When their jobs were actually threatened in '06, they folded like a house of cards.

"Out of the mouths of babes".

If that is your honest opinion then it is my opinion that you never had any "respect" for anything or any one of your fellow pilots; you were just pretending because you believed that was to your personal benefit. You're just a run-of-the-mill opportunist who is willing to sacrifice anyone, as long as YOU have "nothing to lose".

I am embarrassed to wear my uniform and can no longer look other pilots in the eye. I understand why people voted yes, especially the captains, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group of pilots.

No my friend, you don't understand and with that attitude it is clear that you never have or will. That you have proved beyond all doubt. If you did understand you could not have written what you did.

I don't care whether you voted YES or NO because I assumed that your vote and all the other NO and YES votes were based on what you and others honestly believed was best for this airline and ALL of its pilots, and the rest of its people. I now realize that was not the case. You voted NO ... because YOU "had nothing to lose".

Now you tell me that you are "embarrased" to wear your uniform and you no longer wish to be associated with this pilot group. Very well. Now I must tell YOU that I am embarassed to think that you are still wearing that uniform for it is now clear to me that you are not a Comair pilot and you never have been. You've just been masquerading as one while it was to your benefit.

I encourage you to take the steps to end your "association" with our group at your earliest opportunity. Go please, as quickly as you can and don't let the door kick you in the a$$. Take the uniform off as quickly as you can. If you can't do that then turn in the wings and the hat brass and borrow some from the airline of your choice. I wouldn't want anyone to mistake you for a Comair pilot.

I'm not angry because you voted NO and I am not angry with anyone who did because of honest conviction. But I am angry because of what you've said in this post and I am also ashamed. I would not have been ashamed of a NO majority and I am not ashamed of the YES majority. I'm just ashamed of you. I'm glad that I don't know who you are for if I did I would not wish to sit next to you knowing how you feel.

Go, and God speed. You're not one of US and we don't deserve your kind.

 

[Berry McCockner]

Surplus1,,,,You are a sellout.. Everybody has something to lose. Its called a job, pride, selfworth.. Let me ask you something. Do you really think that the 17 million that the pilots just gave will save your airline?? Do you think that you guys will start getting the Q400's or more 70 seaters?? Do you not think that your fate has already been sealed?? What you've done has just made it easier for Delta to sell you off. 17 million is a drop in the bucket on the balance sheet of delta. You and 50.xx% of your budies there are SELLOUTS. Enjoy your new contract and paycheck...

 

[D'Angelo]

Hey at least 51% were smart enough to save our job. Would it really have been any better to have voted no; then let mesa swoop in and take whats left of the flying? I think not. Either way the proverbial bar finds a way to be lowered. The only difference is all comair pilots hit the street and not one person gives a dammn about the sacrifice. Sure they scream here about how the vote hurt the industry. The problem his the industry has been hurt for the last 4-5 years. Every new regional contract that was signed after Sept 11, 2001 has "lowered the bar". Everyone was forced to come down to that level or simply hit the street and take a much more massive paycut. In the end logic won. Maybe someday there will be leverage for pilots again. This wont be any day soon though. There will always be more pilots than jobs available. The problem is there is a surplus of flying out there. Until the supply equals the demand again we will have no leverage. For now you have to do what it takes to survive then hope for the best later.. Oh and BTW how long can that home depot job supplement what you make as an FO even at $34/hr. You pick up an extra trip here and there, work a lot less than you would at a desk job and still make between $35-40,000/yr. You get a lot more days off than you would at home depot. You only get 8 days off, hmmm sounds just like mesa too me.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,,,,You are a sellout..

First of all Berry, unless you work for Comair you have nothing to say that matters. Second, if you do work for Comair you're dead wrong. My guess is you don't work here.

Everybody has something to lose. Its called a job, pride, selfworth..

If you read what I wrote or if you understood any of it then you would know that I agree that everyone at Comair does have something to lose and that's worth a lot more to me than the opinon of those who declare that they voted NO because they have "nothing to lose". Pay attention and you'll get the message.

Let me ask you something. Do you really think that the 17 million that the pilots just gave will save your airline??

I'm not certain if it will or not. I do believe that if we did not lower our costs to match yours we would cease to exist and the likes of you would happily do our work. Perhaps now you won't get that change and we will have the chance to recover. I'm not certain, I just hope so.

Do you think that you guys will start getting the Q400's or more 70 seaters??

No, I don't think that. We wont get anything until we emerge from bankruptcy. After we do it may still take a while and we still may not get anything. This agreement doesn't come with any guarantees, it merely avoids one for an unknown period of time. Will you be upset if it works? It sure seems that way.

Do you not think that your fate has already been sealed??

No, I don't think that our fate has been sealed. I think the outcome of this vote prevents our fate from being sealed, at least for a time.

What you've done has just made it easier for Delta to sell you off.

Boy you really don't get it do you. What makes you think I would be unhappy if Delta sells us off? In case you've missed it, I was unhappy when Delta bought us, I've been unhappy every day they have owned us, and I'll be celebrating if they can sell us off.

The only thing that being owned by Delta over the last 5 years has done for my airline is destroy it. Why would I care if Delta sells us? I'm praying that they find somebody to buy us.

17 million is a drop in the bucket on the balance sheet of delta. You and 50.xx% of your budies there are SELLOUTS. Enjoy your new contract and paycheck...

In case you forgot, the pilots are not the only ones affected by this. It may be 17 millions for us but it is 70 millions for the whole airline. I case you didn't notice it takes more than just pilots to operate an airline. This pilot thinks that the other people who work here are no less important than the pilots.

I won't enjoy my new contract or my new pay check, but both are better than no contract and no paycheck. Without this one I might be forced to work in the same place that you work. Why don't you tell me where that is so I can get the picture of just how great your contract is?

Now, if you have nothing better to do, why don't you go over to the major board and tell the U pilots, UAL pilots, Delta pilots, NW pilots, HAL pilots, ALO pilots and ATA pilots that they are sellouts. Maybe that will make you feel more important.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Many of us have had to make sacrifices both in quality of life/W-2 as well as our own career expectations.-Neal

Only if you work for a commuter or a 121 legacy carrier.