Comair union amenable to taking Delta pilots

[Ameriagle]

This is a serious question, hopefully I will get a serious answer. When has or did the Delta pilot group ever extend their arm in a gesture of goodwill to any DCI carrier with anything but motivation for thier own best interest? And please don't tell me about the assessment you were OBLIGATED to pay as a member of ALPA during the strike. I had to pay it as well...before coming to Comair!!

My question is in response to several posts that imply Comair is a bad group of pilots for not extending a helping hand in the Delta pilots time of need. Again tell me what it is about your actions and attitude towards me, as a Comair pilot, that would motivate me to lobby on your behalf (site this web board) for any number of reasons! I personally have never cared one way or the other if a Delta pilot joins our ranks, its just unlikely I'm going to take much time out of my day to MAKE it happen.

I was not at Comair during the strike but I bet my assessment would be pretty close to fact. Ask any Delta pilot to pledge support for the Comair group during the strike I'm sure 10 out of 10 WOULD say they did! Ask the same Delta pilot group how many supported the strike financially (beyond the OBLIGATION as a union member to pay an assessment) or with their time..i.e. walking the line......maybe 2 in 10 pilots? The remaining 8 pilots while supporting the action where probably not motivated to spend any of their hard earned cash or time on Comair's strike. Thats just the way it is and I don't really blame them for that. I think there is a close parallel to the Comair pilots group motivation to get Delta pilots hired at Comair. While most support it, many are not motivated to make it happen. Thats just the way it is.

 

[79%N1]

General......


ASA and Comair make money and ARE PROFITABLE! Period, end of story! Quit with the spin. It is a fact! Go talk to anybody on Virginia Ave. and they will tell you this. I know it helps you sleep better at night when you think Delta props up our books, but anyway you slice it ---- we are making money, ie profit!

 

[GogglesPisano]

I know I'm an outsider here, but I have to throw this in. When Delta and UAL started furloughing, ACA's MEC issued a resolution supporting the hiring of furloughed UAL and DAL pilots. I know it didn't do much good (the few that were hired are now furloughed from 2 airlines.) Still, it demonstrates a solidarity and an admission that our pilot group knows where the bread came from for many years.

Why didn't the CMR MEC make this gesture?

 

[MetroSheriff]

General......


ASA and Comair make money and ARE PROFITABLE! Period, end of story! Quit with the spin. It is a fact! Go talk to anybody on Virginia Ave. and they will tell you this. I know it helps you sleep better at night when you think Delta props up our books, but anyway you slice it ---- we are making money, ie profit!

Given the corporate structure, does it make any difference? The net is deep in the red and getting worse every day.

I would be curious to know how it is that it can be determined what is profitable and what is not.

I.E.:

A passenger chooses to fly Delta from AUS to SEA. They purchase a ticket from Delta. The board an RJ in AUS, connect to a MD-90 in DFW and continue on to SEA.

Who was profitable and who was not???

ASA?

Mainline?

The "DFW Hub"?

The fact is that some SFB marketing analyst at Fort Widget decided on a fare that was not enough to cover the cost of the trip.

THE WHOLE TRIP!!!! Not a segment, the WHOLE TRIP!!!! If it cost $312.00 to provide a seat from AUS to SEA and you only charge $259.00 then you lose $53.00.

It does not matter which ledger you chouse to drop the $53.00 on.

Delta Air Lines lost 53 bucks on that seat.

If Delta is not profitable, than ASA is not profitable. It really does not matter how they stir the books. To say otherwise is to say that we exist in a vacuum separate from Delta. The reality is, as goes Delta, so goes ASA and Comair.

 

[737 Pylt]

The fact is that some SFB marketing analyst at Fort Widget decided on a fare that was not enough to cover the cost of the trip.

THE WHOLE TRIP!!!! Not a segment, the WHOLE TRIP!!!! If it cost $312.00 to provide a seat from AUS to SEA and you only charge $259.00 then you lose $53.00.

It does not matter which ledger you chouse to drop the $53.00 on.

Delta Air Lines lost 53 bucks on that seat.

If Delta is not profitable, than ASA is not profitable. It really does not matter how they stir the books. To say otherwise is to say that we exist in a vacuum separate from Delta. The reality is, as goes Delta, so goes ASA and Comair.

Metro:
you are dead on! Pricing/internet are killing the legacy carriers. The problem that none of them seems to realize though is that you just can't shrink to profitability ala US Airways. It always seems to be the fault of labor. Their years of mismanagement are whats causing all the legacy carriers to deeper in to debt.
737

 

[Tim47SIP]

Curious?

If the TA passes, what is the effective date of the work rules. 1st of the month? The 11th? When will the other groups be told about their additional cuts? I remember reading 1 bil from pilots and 1 bil from other working groups. Anyone know? Thanks.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

What complete garbage! Look you can't have it both ways.

I guess you don't read very well. I never asked for anything both ways. You are the one's that want it to be both ways. You spend years trying to shaft us when you don't need anything, an then when you do want something you expect us to bend over and get excited over your wants. Life doesn't work that way my friend.

Truth is the only thing I want buddy, is for you to stay on your property and stop messing with ours. You don't control us and we aren't going to let you. So stop trying already. Then we'll all be happy campers.

I thought the reason you guys had the RJ's was because it was beneath a mainline pilot to fly. That is what everyone has been saying on this forum.

We got the RJs because our own company decided to buy them with its own money. I promise you that no one gave a second thought to how you felt about it. The fleet change was managements' business decision and I'm certain they did not spend 5-minutes thinking about whatever you thought it was beneath you or othersise. We didn't need your permission to do it and we didn't ask your permission. I don't think you've been there long enough to even know that you had no Scope to prevent it. You didn't "permit" a dam_n thing. All of your so-called "Scope" was introduced after we had been operating the aircraft for three years. I would guess that before WE introduced RJs to the North American market YOU didn't even know what they were. The Ostrich often misses a lot while its head is proudly buried in the sand.

That is your problem not ours. Maybe you don't know it, but the first time you ever attempted to impose a limit was in your 1996 Agreement. Leading up to that you attempted to prevent us from operating any 70-seaters. You failed, and wound up with a new Scope clause that provided for an unlimited number of 70-seaters and imposed no other restrictions or limits. We did not attempt to move that artificial line.

Since then, you have consistently attempted to further restrict our operations at every opportunity. You tried to transfer the 70-seat flying to yourselves. You failed but you did try. You did succeed in imposing a change from unlimited to 57 total at DCI and a slew of other rediculous restrictions on our flying. The only reason you didn't do more is because the Company said no.

I don't give a hoot why you tried to take from us. The point is you did and you had no right to do so. It was and is a violation of the union's responsibility to represent our interests and to protect our jobs from folks like you.

We have not changed any tunes. It is you that have been consistently trying to change the rules to benefit yourselves at our expense. The only thiing we've done is defend what is ours against your predatory attacks, which have been aided and abetted by OUR union, in violation of the law. We will continue to do that, whether or not it ruffles your pin feathers.

You state that in this concessionary TA that we were actually trying to take your 70 seaters away! Give me a break. You are not on the negotating committee or even a Delta pilot so how did you come up with this little gem?

What I said was that during your concessionary bargaining you attempted to get the 70-seaters (above 57) for yourselves. When that was not successful, you proposed a J4J program that would put your pilots in the cockpits of our airplanes ahead of our pilots. So, you get no breaks. That's what I said, that's what I meant, and that's what you did. You failed because the Company would not even listen to it and you decided you had bigger fish to fry, so you dropped it. Ask your MEC Chairman. Maybe this one will tell you the truth instead of lying to you all like his predecessors have.

The apparent provisions of your new TA are more favorable to us than those of C2K. But, don't make out that it's that way because you did us some type of "favor". It came out the way it did for one reason and one reason only, i.e., that's the way the Company wanted it and you, under the circumstances, did not have the leverage necessary to prevent it; period. In other words, you had to cave on that issue because the other issues were more important. What you got in the TA is NOT what you tried to get and it is not what you wanted. You were simply forced by the Company to take what they were willing to give you in this respect. Now maybe that deflates your egos, but it is nevertheless a fact. I don't need to be on your negotiating committee or a Delta pilot to know that. Your "secrets" are not as secret as you seem to think. Don't forget, your management and our management are one and the same.

The bottom line remains unchanged. You are still trying to use our futures, our flying and our job security as bargaining chips in your negotiations, and you're proud of yourselves for doing it because you believe that you "own" the flying that we do. Well, I hate to burst your ego bubble but you do not own any of the flying. It all belongs to the Company. What part of it you get and what part you don't get is whatever the Company chooses to give you. The same applies to us. The one difference is that we have never tried to use your careers as a bargaining chip in our negotiations. We simply defend our side of the fence, whereas you are continuously trying to relocate the fence at our expense and to your benefit. As long as you continue to do that the conflict of interest will continue.

While your politicians are attempting to harm us at the bargaining table, they're smooth talking our MEC and pretending to be on our side. That is exactly what the APA did to Eagle, It is what ALPA has done to every regional it represents. Those that want to accept that crap are free to do so. Hopefully, Comair pilots will continue to be smart enough to see you for what you are (predators) and protect their own interests before worrying about yours.

We expect you to protect your own interests before worrying about ours. That is normal. What you need to do is expect the same from us. In that respect we are just like you, i.e., the protection of our interests comes before the consideration of yours. As long as we remain separate, that is how it will be. It is also how YOU wanted it. You got what you wanted, now learn to live with it.

Spare me the stories about your liberal Scope. The purpose of Scope is to protect your job at Delta Air Lines. In case you didn't notice, ASA & CMR are not Delta; you have made that quite clear. Therefore, attempts to control my job at Comair is beyond your scope. We have no problem staying out of your territory. You have no right to infringe on ours. When you figure that out we'll get along just fine.

Another thing you should note. The Delta pilot group does not have even one (1) RJ deployed anywhere. The parent Company has a fleet of RJs deployed everywhere. That is no thanks to the Delta pilot group. In fact it is inspite of the best efforts of the Delta pilot group to prevent it. So, don't preach to us about your alleged "liberalism". Save that for people that don't understand the real world in which we live. The Delta pilots have done Comair pilots NO FAVORS and should not expect or demand any favors from us. We treat you just like you treat us. Nothing about that should "amaze" you in any way.

Continued

 

[surplus1]

1. 150 70 seat RJ's then 1 additional 70 seater for every 10,000 mainline hours.

Close, but not quite accurate. Go back and take another look.

2. 25% of connection flying has to be flown by ASA and CMR (yeah that's right we provided you the scope that you never negotiated)

Nice touch, but hollow. Now, how does that 25% relate to what Comair and ASA already do? Is it an increase or a decrease? Do you actually know or are you just guessing? The way I read it, that means that ASA and CMR each get 12.5% or DCI flying, and Chatauqua and SKYW each get 37.5% of DCI flying. I guess you think we should be dancing in the streets because YOU generously gave ASA & CMR 25% and with equal generousity gave CHQ and SKYW 75%? Sorry, but the fact is you didn't "give" us anything; that's just the way the Company decided to allocate its regional flying. It guarantees that 75% of the work will go to the subcontractors and 25% to the subsidiaries; and you want praise for that? Time for you to give me a break, don't you think. We may live in KY but we do not use it as a lubricant for your pleasure.

The only thing that proviso shoud do is open the eyes of CMR & ASA pilots to just how meaningless ALPA's "brand scope" really is.

3. Preferential interviews for regional airlines that take a 70 seat jet above the previous 57 limit once Delta starts interviewing again.

Well, now Whoop-t-doo! We get preferential interviews at some time in the future and (you left this out) you get preferential hiring right away. Is that another one of your favors to us? Personally, I don't really care one way or the other, but why are you making out that preferential hiring is the same as preferential interviews? Am I missing something?

Additionally 49% of all flying can be done by RJ's.

Are you implying that this is something else that you gave us out of the goodness of your hearts or are you just telling us what the Company required you to do?

Obviously you're irked by what I say so let me tell you what irks me. It irks me to hear people like you tell us that you're doing all of these nice things for us, when in fact we know what you've really been trying to do and just haven't been successful at doing. Why don't you just tell it like it is and spare all the pretense of largess on your part?

So how is it that we are always portrayed as the evil mainline pilot looking to take the Regional pilots job.

Could it be because that's what you've been trying to do? You know what, I don't see you as being "evil" at all. You're just doing what you think is in your best interests. What I don't get is why you can't understand that we are not "evil" either. We are just doing what is in OUR best interest. It is just unfortunate that there happens to be a conflict and our interests are not the same.

Once you understand that reality perhaps we can start trying to identify our mutual interests and work together to achieve them, rather than squabbling over who has the biggest dong.

Will eventually be back at Delta and will try my best to keep Comair pilots off property

I won't try my best to keep Delta pilots off our property, but I won't break my neck to get them on our property either. I'm almost like you, but not quite.

Try hard and you'll come to realize that you really aren't better than anyone and our "rights" in this mess are really the same. You just have to learn to cope with the idea that what's yours is yours; what's mine is NOT yours. Jump that hurdle and you'll be on the home stretch.

Best regards.

 

[surplus1]

Still, it demonstrates a solidarity and an admission that our pilot group knows where the bread came from for many years.

Why didn't the CMR MEC make this gesture?

That's an easy question. First, the bread didn't come from the Delta pilot group so there is no need for any "admission". Second, their is no solidarity with people that have been trying to shaft us for more than 10 years and there is no reason there should be. Third, there are no entitlement programs on either side of the equation. Hope that answers your question.

Now here's three for you.

1) Is there some reason you believe there should be more solidarity between a CMR pilot and a DAL pilot than there is between a CMR pilot and an Indy pilot? If so, what is that reason?

2) How come your pilot group isn't threatening to blackball Comair pilots because we did not try to force our Company to change the rules and hire your furloughed pilots (many of who did come here) without a resignation of seniority?

3) We have hired many furloughed pilots from many different airlines since the business took a dive. Our MEC did not seek any special waivers for any of them. Why is the Delta pilot group the ONLY one complaining and making threats?

 

[dtfl]

I have a simple question that no one has addressed - why in the hell would a furloughee want to go to work at a regional and be hired and stuck at the bottom of the seniority list? This is an honest question..not a flame.
You can make more working at Circuit City or McDonalds, sorry to say. I would take a pay cut if I did this "J4J". I dont think you will see this happen - so arguing it is a moot point IMO.

 

[atrdriver]

Keep spinning General, keep spinning. If you say it enough times maybe somebody will actually buy into your load of crap.

BTW, hows that extra flying coming? You guys still working OT while you got guys on the street? Truth hurts don't it?

I sure wish I could dig up some of the posts about this from about 1.5 years ago on the ALPA board...CMR guys repeating that issuing a resolution would do nothing because it was a management policy...Truth hurts, huh?

 

[atrdriver]

The CMR MEC has done nothing to stop, deter, interfere, prevent or lessen in any way the hiring of DAL furloughees. The only thing that happened is your MEC demanded that we try to change management policy and if we didn't he would paint us as the bad guys. Seems to me he's following through on his threat and you three are his errand boys..

Didn't do anything to change it either. That's what the DAL guys are pi$$ed off about, all it would have taken was a simple piece of paper saying that the CMR MEC supported the hiring of DAL furloughees w/o seniority number resignation...THAT'S ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN, but you couldn't find the compassion, or whatever to issue a simple statement.

 

[atrdriver]

we're talking about going directly to the bottom of the FO list - how would that hurt anyone?????

Again, I wish I could dig up some of the older ALPA board posts...the answer to that one was if we hired a bunch of furloughed guys, and then DAL called them all back, we would suddenly have a problem staffing our planes, and it would hurt us...REMEMBER THAT GUYS???? I could give you the initials of the guy that posted it too...I won't, but I could...

 

[surplus1]

atrdriver

And your point is?

 

[737 Pylt]

Not quite

Surplus:
Welcome back. Haven't seen any of your posts for quite a while. The last long one you put on there, I had to take a pee break it was so long. Anyhow, you wrote:

We got the RJs because our own company decided to buy them with its own money.

That's right and wrong. You got the rj's because DALPA didn't want to fly them. You may have bought them, but at the time, the MEC deemed that it wanted all "small plane" flying to be done by DCI.

That is your problem not ours. Maybe you don't know it, but the first time you ever attempted to impose a limit was in your 1996 Agreement.

No argument there. In my humble opinion, DALPA dropped the ball big time with regards to the small jet operation, setting the tone for all commuters to fly them. Let's face it, had DALPA decided it wanted the crj on the property, we would not be having this conversation. We made our bed, we will lie in it.
On another note, a lot of DCI pilots have a hard time understanding that all DAL flying is controlled under the DALPA contract. But as you can see, its becoming not worth the paper its written on, so lets just hope its nice and soft and flushes well.
regards,
737
hope you fared well in FL with all the hurricanes

 

[spinproof]

Didn't do anything to change it either. That's what the DAL guys are pi$$ed off about, all it would have taken was a simple piece of paper saying that the CMR MEC supported the hiring of DAL furloughees w/o seniority number resignation...THAT'S ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN, but you couldn't find the compassion, or whatever to issue a simple statement.

The same thing could be said about DALPA members when in 1999-2000 ASA and COMAIR were purchased. A simple staple would not have hurt anyone. It would have prevented furloughs at mainline. Instead the mainline pilot group voiced opposition overwhelmingly. I fail to see why that is lost in all of this.

 

[CarjCapt]

That's right and wrong. You got the rj's because DALPA didn't want to fly them. You may have bought them, but at the time, the MEC deemed that it wanted all "small plane" flying to be done by DCI.

Let me understand you. We (CMR) got rj's because you (DALPA) didn't want to fly them, correct?

You may have not wanted to fly them but if you did you couldn't prevent CMR from do so. In 1991-92 CMR decided to buy (with our own money) and operate rj's not only under the code share with DAL but also within our own sphere of business. At that time we could operate as many 19-500 seat aircraft we wanted to without your permission.

 

[michael707767]

At that time we could operate as many 19-500 seat aircraft we wanted to without your permission.

You know, its your own fault you did not have contractual language saying if you were bought, you had to be merged in.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus:

That's right and wrong. You got the rj's because DALPA didn't want to fly them. You may have bought them, but at the time, the MEC deemed that it wanted all "small plane" flying to be done by DCI.

You're begging the question. There was no "DCI" when CMR bought those airplanes. There was also no Scope of any kind that applied to what we did. If you feel better by saying that was because your MEC deemed that it wanted all small plane flying to be done by someone else, be my guest. The truth is that your MEC and all the other mainline MEC's had their heads so buried in their own egos that they failed to see it coming and left themselves unprotected.

No different than the current situation at Comair. We went through two rounds of bargaining and did not think that job security was important enough to go for. Like you, we took the money and now we're paying the price. Like you, we made that bed and we are lieing in it.

On another note, a lot of DCI pilots have a hard time understanding that all DAL flying is controlled under the DALPA contract.

Not so fast Festus. I think it is Delta pilots that can't come to grips with the fact that all DAL flying is controlled by Delta Air Lines and not by DALPA. Your contract merely controls what the Company chooses to give you from time-to-time. In your latest TA that is self evident. The Company gave you 51% and gave DCI 49% of their flying. They kept control of the seat ranges they wanted and the number of airframes they wanted, as well as the percentage they would allocate to the subsidiaries (25%) and to the subcontractors (75%).

If you really believe that is indicative of your "controlling" anything, be my guest. As you point out, accurately, it's not worth the paper it's written on. The Company is in full control of what it wants to control. The rest is window dressing to give you the illusion that you're calling the shots.

hope you fared well in FL with all the hurricanes

Lost all my trees, but otherwise we did OK, thanks.

All the best.
S1

 

[DDpaysoff]

[QUOTE

B-727 Freight Dawg
Will eventually be back at Delta and will try my best to keep Comair pilots off property[/QUOTE]
Cool. There are plenty of other borderline chapter 11, cash bleeding, paycut taking, market share losing, non hiring airline pilot jobs out there to apply for. Fuk you very much, though.