Comair union amenable to taking Delta pilots

[Varmint]

First of all like posted earlier only 12 got hired at ASA and only 6 remain at ASA. Second, we all feel management does some piss poor decisions, just like anywhere else. INCLUDING DELTA. So why blame the pilot group. Last of all were where you during Comair's strike. Comair's pilots got more money from American than they did you to support them.

1. Source for the exact numbers of furloughs hired, please? In addition, tell the full story. An unspecified number of furloughs were hired prior to the hiring freeze (which lasted for two years while CMR expanded massively in ATL and elsewhere). More have been hired since the doors were re-opened for hiring as the tables turn and ASA begins expanding again.

2. MGMT does make piss poor decisions...agreed. The pilot group is not to blame for MGMT's decision not to hire furloughs. The pilot group IS to blame for not pushing their MEC to pass a supportive resolution regarding preferential hiring. My take (it isn't much) is that JC found out the DAL MEC may relax scope during concessions talks (mid summer). The resolution was passed to hire furloughs so CMR could partake in the aircraft handouts because of the required "furlough hire" clause.

Question for you: Since the "Furlough Hiring Resolution" passed your MEC, has CMR mgmt agreed to hire any furloughed guys? If so, this could have been done two or three years ago on good faith instead of when the golden carrot (airplanes) was seen dangling in the distance.

3. Not the strike thing again...it's old. Everyone was assesed a strike benefit and I am sure most paid it. So you went on strike....Big F-in deal. If going on strike for 90-days for some contract improvements makes me act like a pompus and anal retentive militant a-hole who hasn't taken a crap in two weeks, then I don't want it. Nobody owes you anything for going on strike, you got your ALPA strike assesment payments when you were walking, right? At the end of the strike you got your "industry leading" regional contract, right? What does it matter about who gave what. Maybe there are more ex-CMR guys at American who felt compelled to contribute more, who knows.

 

[Caveman]

Just to refresh a few memories, the conversation regarding DAL furloughees at CMR went something like this:

Malone: How about supporting our guys getting hired?

Lawson: Good idea. While you are here let's talk about a few other things.

Malone: No way! This is the only thing we want to talk about. Agree to take our guys or we'll tell the world you wouldn't help.

Lawson: It's not our policy it's managements policy.

Malone: Nothing else is on the table. I demand that you formally and in writing support our furloughees.

Lawson: We do support them. Management is stopping them, not us.

Malone: Yeah, but I'm gonna telll the world it was you guys.

Lawson: Sorry, we don't do blackmail.

Malone: Fine, conversations over.

 

[General Lee]

Caveman,


Again, Lawson wanted to "get something for helping our boys out." Bob Arnold from ASA didn't ask for anything, only Lawson. Lawson saw an opportunity to gain something when other people were hurting or distressed. Then every Comair guy here stated it was a "company policy that has been around since Moses. Can't change it, heck NO!" Then, out of nowhere, Lawson now says he supports changing the rule that could not be broken---the 11th Commandment "Thou Shalt Not help a Delta Furlough even though you are hiring 300 hour Wonders from Camp Comair." Truth hurts....don't it!


P38,

You really can't see that we have many pilots that really did need your help, or help from someone. A lot of these furloughs just gave up their military stints, or Capt jobs at even Comair, and in the end were pi$$ed that Comair couldn't even help out, when ASA could. That is the key here. Now, your boy Lawson wants to help out, and it is sooo transparent it is ridiculous. Well, since ASA helped out from the start, they will be treated well I am sure. Even Chataqua helped too. And, if Jetblue helped out, they will have a shot if they so chose. (Why?) The ones that will be high lighted will be the ones that DID NOT HELP. That just makes sense, doesn't it? If you want to make light of this situation and pretend that a bunch of our guys don't feel this way, then continue to.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Caveman,


1. Malone wasn't the DMEC at the time.

2. The CMR MEC is on record as supporting managements policy to exclude furloughed Delta pilots unless they resign their seniority number.

Them the facts.

 

[737 Pylt]

Hey Mikey boy, f*ck you right back. You need to find your happy place.

Hugs and kisses,

Current Position: Comair FO
PositiveRate

And this, ladies and gentlemen is why Comair/Delta pilots will never get along!
737

 

[Caveman]

Keep spinning General, keep spinning. If you say it enough times maybe somebody will actually buy into your load of crap.

BTW, hows that extra flying coming? You guys still working OT while you got guys on the street? Truth hurts don't it?

 

[Caveman]

FDJ2,

Sue me. I got the guys name wrong. It doesn't change the content of the conversation between your MEC and my MEC.

 

[737 Pylt]

Keep spinning General, keep spinning. If you say it enough times maybe somebody will actually buy into your load of crap.

BTW, hows that extra flying coming? You guys still working OT while you got guys on the street. Truth hurts don't it?

You know what hurts, is when a POS like you takes a cheap shot at others' misfortune! Keep laughing a-hole. Cuts are just a matter of time in your future.
737

 

[Caveman]

737,

Nobody's laughing at anything. GL, et al, are spreading their usual BS about what actually happened on the hiring deal. I'm calling him, and you, and anybody else on it. It's crap and you know it.

I've never said anything even remotely negative about your furloughees. I SUPPORT them being hired at CMR, but I'm not gonna let him or you or anybody else get on here and rant about the evil CMR pilots when you know it's a crock.

"You know what hurts, is when a POS like you takes a cheap shot at others' misfortune! Keep laughing a-hole. Cuts are just a matter of time in your future.
737"

"And this, ladies and gentlemen is why Comair/Delta pilots will never get along!
737"

Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[Caveman]

deleted

 

[737 Pylt]

737,

Nobody's laughing at anything. GL, et al, are spreading their usual BS about what actually happened on the hiring deal. I'm calling him, and you, and anybody else on it. It's crap and you know it.

Caveman: You wrote:

BTW, hows that extra flying coming? You guys still working OT while you got guys on the street? Truth hurts don't it?

If that's not flame bait, I don't know what is! Your eluding of the comment only proves your guilt by flaming the situation of our furloughees and the impending pay hits this TA will have on all of us mainline pilots.
737

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,

Sue me. I got the guys name wrong. It doesn't change the content of the conversation between your MEC and my MEC.

No, it just highlights the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[FDJ2]

737,

Nobody's laughing at anything. GL, et al, are spreading their usual BS about what actually happened on the hiring deal. I'm calling him, and you, and anybody else on it. It's crap and you know it.

Simple question for an obviously simple man. Caveman, did the CMR MEC support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in 2003?

 

[General Lee]

Caveman,

What? I think FDJ2 is right, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. What overtime? I cannot, only senior Captains in categories that are undermanned---and that is because many line check airman have retired on the large aircraft, so they are having a hard time training people to become line check guys. That is what is happening right now at Delta. That is the truth, we still have the same 75 hour cap for most of our planes, and especially FO lines. We are hurting in the senior Captain area, not FO area. Would you rather we just parked all of the large aircraft? I guess you would. Bill O'Reily would love you---you are in the ALL SPIN ZONE. I speak the truth, and everyone over here believes me, because they know it is true. Comair never helped any of our guys, and the only way they would consider it is if they got something in return. Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him. I am not wrong, YOU ARE. As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Caveman]

My comment about OT is just as inaccurate as GL's inflamatory crap about CMR rejecting DAL furloughees. They are both cheap shots and both are basically not true. That was my intention. Bullseye. I got the response that I get when you guys spread lies about the hiring of furloughees. It's easy to say we aren't hiring furloughees or that you guys are flying OT. Both statements are essentially true, but the real circumstances about what's going on paint a different picture.

"Simple question for an obviously simple man. Caveman, did the CMR MEC support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in 2003?"

Simple answer, yes. Period. Further more I challenge you to produce one document, one quote, ANYTHING to the contrary. It doesn't exist and that's what has me pissed off about this. The CMR MEC has done nothing to stop, deter, interfere, prevent or lessen in any way the hiring of DAL furloughees. The only thing that happened is your MEC demanded that we try to change management policy and if we didn't he would paint us as the bad guys. Seems to me he's following through on his threat and you three are his errand boys..

"Now, your boy Lawson claims responsibilty for reversing the 11th Commandment, and we all can see right through him."

He did no such thing. Some news hack embellishes a quote and you start reading between the lines. Where did he 'claim responsibility" for anything?

"As far as the future TA we are voting on, Dalpa has stated that the recalls should continue due to the expansion of flying early next year, and the large retirement numbers. That should keep people coming back."

Good, but I'm not sure what this has to do with this conversation. Especially since I didn't comment one way or the other about your TA. That's was 737's leap to a conclusion about something I never said anything about.

 

[DAL737FO]

Caveman,

Let's have a little truth here. You know very well that unless you have a court reporter taking down word for word what is said that you can deny it later. I remember very vividly calling a friend of mine that was going through training at CMR in December of 02. This was right after JC's infamous statement of hiring Delta pilots without giving up their Delta seniority would cause CRM problems and my guys would burn the house down. Notice I didn't put that in quotes because I wasn't there. Now you Comair guys pride yourself of being a little on the radical side. (Thump chest here) We stood up to the oppressive management for 89 days. Good for you. I've been on furlough for over 2 1/2 years and for 15 months I was a charter guy in Atlanta. It's amazing how loose tongues get when pilots think they are just talking to a charter puke or freight dawg. I've heard it all first hand. The hopes of scope going out the window and we'll be flying 737's/90 seaters/unlimited 70 seaters (I guess some dreams come true). I guess what we are trying to say is too little too late with hiring furloughee's now.

B-727 frieght dawg

 

[spinproof]

You know what hurts, is when a POS like you takes a cheap shot at others' misfortune! Keep laughing a-hole. Cuts are just a matter of time in your future.
737

No its a POS like you that divides Pilot Groups. It's JC Lawson, Cory Tennen and Bill Baker that you should channel your anger not the COMAIR pilots! That goes for the rest of you whinners! Nobodys laughing at anyones misfortune but with retoric like this coming from an ungrateful source, tempers flare!

The same can be said from the other side in reference to combining seniority status.Which I might add would have solved the furlough status for Delta mainliners and this arguement would not be occurring.

 

[Ameriagle]

The general feeling I get from reading this thread is that no Delta pilot will ever be caught dead in the cockpit of a Comair CRJ. The question I have is....does the TA, should it pass, have specific language in it preventing any potential growth aircraft coming to Comair? If not, it seems to me that furloughed mainline pilots, should they want to continue to fly in the DCI network, may not have a choice.

I cannot speak intelligently about the recent motivation of the CMR MEC to support a policy to hire mainline pilots without resigning their senority number as I am not them. I will say that, from many of the pilots I have flown with and spoke to (at Comair) including myself, with exception most have been OK with the hiring of Delta pilots....from day 1! If I said it was anyone's number 1 priority I would be obviously lying. There is a big difference between being in support of it and trying to make it happen!

In my time at Comair I rarely have come into contact with a mainline pilot without hearing some sort of criticism about being a part of the Comair pilot group. It seems the first priority of a mainline pilot....whether on this board or in your jumpseat...is to establish your place in the pecking order. The rare exception would be when one of you are on MY jumpseat! The attitude I have generally encountered has hardly been a motivating factor to lobby anybody in your favor whether it be my MEC or otherwise. IMO, if I in any way represent our group of pilots, I could say I could care less one way or the other if we hire a mainline pilot. If we do thats fine...if not oh well. We do not all have to have a passionate point of view on this subject as so many do on this board!

 

[surplus1]

To waivering CMR pilots

Face it Comair guys, the exchage is not going to change the mindset of the Delta pilots writing in this forum or those that don't write in this forum. It does not matter who says what, their minds are made up and they were made up long before Buergey's (their then MEC Chairman's) little visit with the Comair MEC.

There are several reasons for the Delta pilots hatred (like it or not that's what it is) of the Comair pilot group and none of them have anything to do with furloughees.

1) Their MEC tried to prevent Comair from flying jets. The Comair MEC did not roll over and do their bidding. They got angry and have been stomping their feet ever since. They even resorted to calling us "scabs" on the radio when our jets first came on line, and no, it was not one or two of them, it was hundreds of them. They were accustomed to getting their way and having everybody bow before them in ALPA. The Comair MEC didn't bow and they haven't gotten over it. They have disliked us intensly ever since.

2). They tried to promote an Eagle-type flow-through agreement and they were told we were "not interested". They then threatened to stop us from flying the 70-seater alltogether and we told them it would mean war. They tried anyway and failed, winding up with "unlimited" 70-seaters in their scope clause (1996). That pissed them off even more.

3) They used their power within ALPA to take funding away from the Comair MEC in the effort to coerce the CMR MEC into doing what they wanted. They were successful in the Executive Council. The Comair pilots countered by assessing themselves, keeping the assessment money outside of ALPA control and blocking effectively the Delta MEC's effort to coerce the CMR MEC with money. That pissed them off again, even more.

4) The Comair MEC filed a PID request after the purchase of our airline. It was an attempt at unity. The Delta MEC called it a "seniority grab" and launched a progaganda campaign among Delta pilots to promote that idea. The Delta pilots fell for it hook, line and sinker. The Delta MEC fought the PID, with lawyers and every other available means at their disposal. They were successful, but they deeply resented the idea that some "scumbags" from Comair would suggest a merger with almighty Delta. They hated us for making the attempt and they still do.

5) In C2K negotiations they tried again to take away the 70-seaters. They were only partially successful and blocked them at 57. They also restricted the 50-seaters and intentionally created a provision that would force the 70-seaters to be spread over all of DCI, effectively blocking the large orders/options placed by CMR before it was purchased by Delta. They felt good about "squashing" CMR pilots' aspirations (within Comair) and made no secret of it.

6) During the strike they did what they had to do to keep themselves from being called scabs, i.e., they did not fly struck work. They did not do that in support of Comair pilots, they did it for themselves. Some of them walked the picket line with CMR pilots, right up until they got their own C2K settled. As soon as that happened, they never walked again. They did not walk to help CMR, they walked to help their own negotiations. While they were preaching "support" in public, their MEC was quietly fighting every approval of funding from the SOC. They paid the assement because they had to, and some of them gave some dollars to the family fund. Most of them gave nothing, but they have been crowing about it ever since. They are the ONLY pilot group, in or out of ALPA, that has ever demanded a pay-back for their alleged generosity.

7) A group of Comair pilots sued ALPA for failing to represent our interests properly by helping the Delta pilots effort to take our 70-seaters and scope us out of existence. They resented that deeply and used it as a political weapon against all Comair pilots. They are still doing that today.

8) When their pilots were furloughed, their own MEC did NOTHING to help them other than paying their insurance (COBRA). Their MEC refused to use its own negotiating capital with Delta management to obtain preferential hiring for the furloughed pilots anywhere. Instead, they seized an opportunity to approach the CMR MEC with a political manuever structured in a way that they knew would have to be rejected. When it was, they launched a campaign of villification and slander against our MEC and our Chairman. It was no accident, it was a deliberate effort to turn the Delta pilots against Comair pilots and it worked, just like the first propaganda effort and the lies about "seniority grabs". Their MEC Chairman, who made the move, was a long time opponent of Comair jets, before he became MEC Chairman. He was a part of the original effort to take the 70-seaters. A hypocrite and an enemy of the Comair pilots. The furloughed Delta pilots were gullible enough to believe him and with the active propaganda of the Delta MEC joined in the campaign to blame the CMR MEC for the failures of their own MEC.

9) In their most recent concessionary bargaining, while their MEC is publicly pretending to have a "new accomodation" with the CMR and ASA MEC's, they were actively trying at the bargaining table to take the 70-seaters again. They failed. Then they tried to negotiate a J4J program that would put Delta pilots into the Captain seats of Comair airplanes, just like USAir. It had the support of ALPA, but that support was neutered in part due to the RJDC litigation. It failed because the Company would not agree to it. They agreed to modify their scope because the company forced them to do it, period. They were not doing us any favors so don't be duped into believing that.

Since 1994 (long before many of you that want to kiss and make up came to CMR) The Delta MEC, has engaged in a concerted effort to control the flying of Comair pilots; to limit the number of jets we operate; to restrict the size of those jets to 50-seats; and literally to screw us in every way they could think of. Many of you CMR pilots that want a love-in would not be here if they had prevailed. The CMR MEC was mostly, though not completely, successful in stopping them and they resent that.

Now they want to pretend that they are "injured" because the CMR MEC would not go to war with our management for their benefit. We would not do with our management what their own DMEC refused to do with their own Delta management. So now they have the "right" to threaten and attempt to blackball CMR pilots that might want to fly at Delta in the future. They condemn us because we did not do for them what they refused to do for themselves; for their own furloughed pilots.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Comair pilots. They hate our guts and they have hated us from the day Comair ordered its first jet in 1992. Since that time their MEC has consistently worked against the interests of Comair pilots in every way that it could get away with. They despise the CMR MEC because it had the courage to refuse to bow down to their efforts of intimidation and it fought actively for the rights of Comair pilots. The Comair MEC is the ONLY regional MEC in ALPA that has ever had the cojones to stand up to a mainline MEC. The Delta group resents us for doing that and they aren't going to stop unless we give in and allow them to control us and to dictate our futures.

This divide is not about furloughees and it never has been. It's about power. The Delta pilots are the self-appointed Kings of ALPA and anyone who doesn't bow before them is branded an SOB. Especially some regional scumbags like Comair. That is who they are, it is what they believe in the majority, and it is what they represent. It's their "culture" of dominance and they are not about to give it up. They will do or say whatever the can to promote that.

Comair pilots need to understand that. They are not our friends and they never have been. No amount of rhetoric or reasoning is going to change that. Give in and they will squash you like the bug they regard you to be. Thinking that they are going to "love" you because Comair hires a few of their pilots is wishful thinking and It ain't going to happen. They do not want unity, what they want is control and a Trojan Horse is one more tool.

I do not despise any of the Delta line pilots and I feel sorry for those that are furloughed. I want the Company to do well and I want them to do well at Delta. However, not one of them should ever sit in an airplane operated by Comair ahead of any Comair pilot. They have no right to the left seat at Comair and we should not give them that right come hell or high water. I do despise many of their former leaders who have been out to "get" Comair pilots for more than a decade. I'm happy that, so far, they have been less than successful. But, I am not unaware about how much and how hard they have tried.

We should not be listening to BS from the General or any other one of them. Instead, learn and face the truth. We are "separate", they want us to stay separate, and that is how it is going to stay. As long as they do not seek to do us harm, we should get along with them. Meanwhile, lock your doors and guard your house, for they will take from you anything they can whenever they can if you fail to protect it. Leopards don't change their spots. They are not on our side, they never have been and they aren't going to be unless it is in their interest.

The best thing we Comair pilots can do is start worrying about our own survival before we waste time worrying about make-believe unity with people whose agenda is to do us in.

 

[General Lee]

Wait a second, I guess our MEC wants us to like the ASA pilots and not the Comair pilots, right? Why would they want us to think that? Talk about conspiracy theories. It all comes down to helping out those in need, not about airline politics. When it came down to it, the ASA pilots did not block our guys from coming over and losing seniority rights. I don't care if 6 people total did it, it was a nice gesture. The Comair pilots in general did NOT advocate out loud the helping of the unfortunate furloughs. Now your guy Lawson states (in the paper) that last Summer he and the Comair MEC floated an idea over to Comair management to change the 11th Commandment. Well, wasn't that 2 1/2 years too late? If your guys were so altruistic, wouldn't they have done that sooner? You guys are awesome.


As far as your scope examples, I think it would be natural for any group to want to protect it's flying. You guys sure did not, and look where it got you. Look around at all of the other DCI carriers out there, thanks to you and your LACK of scope. I bet you wish you had used some of your might at the bargaining table to add some scope protections? Oh wait, you really didn't have much "might", did you? Well, neither do we right now.



Bye Bye--General Lee