Comair stopped Hiring?Asking for Leaves

[General Lee]

The fact is that there are 1060 furloughs out there, and Comair will not hire them without giving up their senority numbers---even though Delta owns Comair and ASA is doing it with Delta's consent. Where am I wrong here? The Delta MEC went to ASA and Comair asking for help, and only the Comair MEC had "issues" that needed to be resolved first(even though we had people out of work) that were completely taking advantage of the situation. "Hey look, we've got them---let's see if we can get them to throw away the scope, and then we'll put their guys at the bottom of our list, flying the crappy trips. Good idea." Am I wrong here? Nope. Not one of your guys would have lost one ounce of senority, and you are hiring 40 or so a month. Am I wrong here? ASA went along until they couldn't hire anymore, and eventually they will benefit somehow---atleast more than the Comair pilots. I have nothing personal against individual Comair pilots---I just don't like the fact that our furloughed pilots were treated like pawns. The scope issues etc. will always be a soft spot between us---but the ASA guys were there to offer something. We won't forget that. (And don't get me started on how we gave you money and support during your strike----I could go on for days...you know that)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

I could go on for days...you know that)

Yes, we know that. I can do the same, but it won't change much of anything.

"Hey look, we've got them---let's see if we can get them to throw away the scope, and then we'll put their guys at the bottom of our list, flying the crappy trips. Good idea." Am I wrong here?

In a word, YES.

Here's how it went. Act 1 Scene 1.

Delta MEC -- "So, you don't want the Eagle flow-thorugh to the bottom of our list so that we can use you as furlough protection? Who the h*ll do you think you are? Fine, have it your way. Just so you'll know, were taking ALL your seventy seaters and on top of that, we're going to restrict your 50-seaters enough to where you'll be laying off pilots. Your growth is over and if you're lucky you'll have another upgrade in about 5 years. We're gonna Scope your a$$ right off the map."

Act 1 Scene 2

You tried to take all the 70-seaters, but you failed. The Company said no. However, they did give you a cap at 57 -- spread among ALL the DCI carriers. (We alone had 90 on order/option before that). You did succeed in capping our 50-seat flying and placing all types of restrictions on it. All designed to prevent our growth. We were just lucky that you didn't get what you wanted, but you sure tried. What's more, you're planning to try again.

Act 2 Scene 1

Your Company bought our Company. We asked for the implementation of ALPA's merger policy. Your MEC hired a lawyer to block it. You called us names, told us we were unqualified to work on your list, had skeletons in our closets, no education, DUI's and everything else derogatory you could think of. You corralled your "buddies" in the national union against us. You told us, over and over again, that you wanted no part of the likes of us on your list, period. You won.

Act 2 Scene 2.

Your EVP on the Executive Council actively took action to limit our funding, deny us access to the OCF and leave us without enough money to run even a skeleton MEC .... in the middle of our negotiations. You're powerful and you forced it through the Executive Council and through the Executive Board by a weighted vote majority. You told us "Sometimes you have to eat a sh!t sandwich."

We countered by assessing ourselves an additional 1.5% of gross in dues to our MEC, paying our own way. We continued to pay the assessment (except during the strike) until after our new contract was signed. Your direct action cost our pilots an additional million dollars, directly. But you didn't win. It pis*ed you off more. You called us more names.

The union helped you by delaying our contract to ensure that you could sign your contract first. Your MEC declined to support a joint effort that would coordinate with us to pressure the Company as a whole.

Act 3 Scene 1.

You signed an "industry leading contract" that included most of the items designed to stop us from growing. We were just lucky that circumstances beyond both our control prevent it from happening.

When we struck, you paid the assessment --- just like every other ALPA pilot did. Unlike every other ALPA pilot, you have constantly reminded us that you met your obligation to the union. NO other pilot group has reminded us every day!

Some of you gave to our family fund. Considering there are 9000 of you, you in fact gave little. Truth is the pilots of American Airlines, by themselves, gave almost as much as ALL ALPA PILOTS COMBINED! Still, you remind us on an almost daily basis that you gave and we should be beholding to you.

You didn't fly struck work. You keep reminding us of that too. Guess what; no one else flew struck work either and NONE of them reminds us every day like you do. The truth is you didn't fly struck work because you didn't want to be called Scabs ... so you can stop pretending it was to "help" us .... it wasn't.

A handful of you walked the line with us ... the majority of you walked through the line ... without a nod. That's OK, we didn't expect you to stick your necks out for us... and you didn't.

In short buddy, a few, a handful of you, gave support during our strike (thanks very much). The majority of you, by a wide margin, did what you have always done in a strike .... nothing more than you HAD to.

It wasn't much different during the Eastern strike. In that one, nearly a thousand of you refused to pay the assessment, and you were making relatively big bucks then too. Guess what? Almost ALL of us paid, even though the strike benefit was larger that what we ourselves were being paid to work. We paid because it was right. You paid because you HAD to. In fact, the number of you that didn't pay, was greater than our entire seniority list, at the time.

Act 3 Scene 2

Now you're in trouble. We're sorry and we wish you were not. We don't like to see any pilot furloughed, not even you. You want assistance, but you don't really just pick up the phone and ask.

Instead your MEC writes a threatening letter, orchestrates a publicity stunt in advance, makes an "offer" that it knows it can't deliver and, when it gets the answer it knew it had to get, uses it to incite the rank and file against the Comair MEC and Comair pilots.

You're still trying to incite, trying to force a wedge between us and our brothers at ASA, trying to divide us from our own MEC, bad mouthing our MEC Chairman and in general, behaving like the spoiled brats that you are.

It's time you got the message. You can work with Comair pilots, you can work with the Comair MEC. We will help you whenever you choose to make a legitimate request. What you cannot do and what your MEC cannot do is threaten or intimidate Comair pilots. That will NOT work, no matter how often you stomp your feet and roll on the floor.

As long as you are trying to coerce and intimidate and take from us for yourselves, you will get nothing. As long as your MEC continues to attempt to take from us and to threaten and intimidate us, there is no reason whatever why we should want even one of you on our list. In other words, we don't need you on our list any more than you need us on your list. You have made it abundantly clear that you want no part of us repeatedly. Why on earth do you expect us to want you?

As for the ASA guys "giving" you something, yes you are wrong. Remember, the ASA guys are our friends and brothers. We KNOW what their MEC did and what it didn't do.

The truth is ASA Management made a unilateral decision to hire furloughed Delta pilots. They did NOT do it because the ASA MEC asked them to. There is also NO AGREEMENT between the ASA MEC and the Delta MEC about preferential hiring. That just isn't true and you keep saying that it is. You're trying to make political hay. Own up to it. Your MEC made a bogus "offer" and you're spreading bogus propaganda.

The ASA MEC did not object to what the Company did, no more no less. The CMR MEC doesn't object to what our Company did either. It just happens to be different.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble General, but you aren't shooting straight. I'm not afraid to tell you so as you can see. I've been around long enough to tell everyone that there is no Pony in the horse manure you're putting out.

If you want us to join hands with you and help, then stop dealing from a marked deck. I'm just as tired of you guys as you are tired of us. We won't get anywhere by keeping this up. Your own pilots are the victims of your MEC's politics. Wnat to help them? Stop it!

Hope you have a good day and everyone gets recalled soon.

 

[NYRANGERS]

If you want us to join hands with you and help, then stop dealing from a marked deck. I'm just as tired of you guys as you are tired of us. We won't get anywhere by keeping this up. Your own pilots are the victims of your MEC's politics. Wnat to help them? Stop it!

Hope you have a good day and everyone gets recalled soon.

This may be an appropriate link for you........



http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/nerds.html

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Man alive! That really was a good post. I liked how you put it into acts and scenes. The tone of the whole thing was "Delta pilots and their MEC bad, Comair pilots good." Come on, I flew at the regionals too---I know that everyone has aspirations to thrive. Now I wasn't exactly there when the Comair MEC and the Delta MEC talked. Were you? Were there notes taken---with the threats documented, or is this hearsay? Do we really know that the Delta MEC---who I have met and thought at the time was a nice guy----offered those threats? Come on, we all know that ALPA is political---with a caste system with different levels. Some guys probably feel like they have more say because they represent the bigger airline. That is the way it is. I have a very hard time believing that our MEC would do or say anything that would further hurt our furloughs, especially if notes were taken. So, if you have those notes or proof that our MEC said those things I would like to see them. Please post them.

Ok, here is my rebuttal to your alligations.

1. "We keep reminding you that we gave so much during your strike." Well, what you refuse to understand is that we did actually support you, which is better than not. We were approached by management to fly your routes, but we did not because we are not scabs. We did have people walking your lines, and ALL of us wanted you to win. I flew for a regional, and I knew how poorly you guys were treated. Why would I not want you to get better wages or lifestyle improvements? To think that we are all just a bunch of money grubbing a$$holes that only care about ourselves is rediculous. President Bush stated that summer that NO Major airline was going to be allowed to strike, and the AA sickout cost the APA lots of $$. Saying that most of our pilots wouldn't even "nod" to you on the line is wrong too. A friend of mine said a top 10 Delta senority Capt helped walk your line more than once---and that proved that he didn't just care about his $$$. We were there for you with the ALPA contibution and in other ways, and the reason I keep bringing this up is because you are NOT THERE for any of our 1060 pilots on the street. We might have given "the minimum " in your view, but you have given them NOTHING. There is a difference. We had our hands tied by the Bush administration to do anything "radical"----and we thought you would win, we did. Leo had other ideas. He outlasted you, and we did not--we gave money (like everyone else.....) and helped in other ways. What have you done for our unfortunate furloughs? Name one thing!!! NOTHING. Have you given anything to the furlough fund? I have. I am paying (like everyone else at Dalpa) for their Cobra payments, I have given to the Christmas fund, and I sponsor a furlough---we go out to lunch and talk etc often.
I give money to the furlough emergency fund for medical emergencies for family members. I actually care, just like I cared about whether or not you won. We aren't total a$$holes over here. Sure, some ex-military guys never flew at the regionals, and might act like jerks. But, the recent hiring at Delta was made up of mostly ex-regional pilots, and those are the ones that understand your plight, and now they are furloughed and you won't help them.

2. "Now we're in trouble.." Well, we did contribute something ($$$) during your time of need, and you won't help us in ours. It really is that simple. Stop, take a deep breath, ask yourself this question: "Did they help us at all when we needed it? Ok, can we help them at all now?" Those guys that were furloughed were not making the "big bucks." We are currently supporting them by not giving in to excessive paycuts and fighting to get them back on the property as soon as possible. Wouldn't you do that for your guys? Sure you would. We will try to get them back into the cockpit---but what new planes are coming to Delta in the near future? We are parking the old 727's, and parking the MD-11's. What else do we have? RJ's? Ummm, yes. Oh, maybe we shouldn't because the Comair guys might get mad. Let's leave our 1060 pilots out for 3 more years. Starbucks will hire them..
You are the one who is selfish if you beleive they should stay out and you should grow. And Comair has made a stand that it will not hire our pilots----so what should we do?????? And as far as the wedge between you and your ASA pilot brothers---I know one very well and he said it is unfair that you guys are expanding in DFW, LGA, and more in SLC while they fight it out with their contract. I have seen some of them on our jumpseats and they all approved that they hired some furloughs---which they think was the right thing to do.

3. We "behave like spoiled brats." What? You guys are the ones who are crying like babies that we might "take some of your RJ's" and spoil your tremendous growth. Hey, those aren't your RJ's.
Delta BOUGHT YOU. They own the right to them---not you. We have 1060 pilots out of work. You won't let them on to the BOTTOM of your List. IF Delta wants relief on the 57 70 seater clause, they might have to let some of our furloughed guys fly them. They wouldn't be taking away any of your planes---they would use some of the options and convert them. You would still get your 57 of them, just during a longer time span. So it takes you 6 more months to go from 50 seat Capt to 70 seat Capt----we have 1060 pilots who get unemployment checks. You Grow up!

4. ASA has nothing in writing about preferential hiring. Well, I don't know exactly what was written, but I will tell you this---I personally,(along with 1060 other pilots) will be knocking on Plato Rhyne's door (or whoever is doing it then) and make sure he or she knows our feelings. No threats here, just opinions. No, I think we are all allowed to have our own opinions. We can voice them whenever. This "Bogus" offer you are talking about will come to fruition I can assure you.

This all come down to this: I am dissapointed that I supported you during your strike, and now you cannot do the same for all of my friends on furlough. I have to hear about their hardships and what not---and I know that they would have accepted an RJ job easily. I see that ASA accepted them, and Comair did not. It is that simple. If you said that the ASA MEC didn't approve it, well he didn't disapprove it or actively terminate it, like Lawson. The one thing that is left is the 1060 furloughs, and that is what I am really concerned about. You and I can agree to disagree--but remember: everyone of those "jerk" Delta pilots gave something to you---whether or not they HAD to do it---they gave. How many of your pilots have given to this cause? Any? Probably not many. It's like a slap in the face---not to me--but to 1060 that are out there stuck, while you hire from every other airline. Do they have to resign their senority--probably yes. But, we are owned by the same company--that is the difference. But Lawson says there would be a CRM problem. With that attitude, there might just be one--because of your bad attitude--not a furloughed pilot's. He/she would be happy to have a job----just ask the 13 over at ASA---they are happy---I know one of them.

So there you have it--another "book sized" answer. Scope is your big issue with us, but look in your own backyard with Chit-talk. Someday you will understand---you have to protect yourself and your routes. Otherwise, the lowest bidder wins, and Leo wins BIG.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[skiddriver]

As I start off here, for the record, when I had an opportunity to discuss this issue with Capt Lawson (when I was on airport reserve on Christmas day and he came in to say "Hi" to the troops) I expressed my opinion that in light of the current situation, that I thought it would be a good idea to ask management to waive the requirement to resign a seniority number to hire on at Comair. I didn't do that to try and get preferential hiring at Delta. I didn't do that to be a nice guy. I suggested it because I personally felt a sense of obligation to the furloughed pilots, from ALL the airlines with pilots on the street right now and to their families, that we try and help them if we could. I know that the requirement to resign a seniority number is a roadblock to most folks who have a hope of being recalled by their airline.

Capt Lawson presented some compelling reasons why it was not in the best interests of the Comair pilot group to make that arrangement without some compensation. We agreed to disagree, and I have to say that since it is his duty to look after the welfare of the Comair pilot group, I can understand his and the rest of the Comair representative's decision. It is easy for me to recommend a soft position on this issue. It is another thing to implement it as a policy and be responsible for the future of 1500 pilots.

What I have a harder time understanding is this sense of moral outrage I get from General Lee, et al. Let me get this straight. Time after time I've seen from the Delta pilot group, "We're different companies, no linkage, no connection. We own your flying, we'll take it away when we want." Demand and threaten, demand and threaten. And when your MEC walks in, and attempts to bargain for hiring rights for your furloughees, with a group of pilots who have dedicated years to make Comair a destination airline - they attempt to bargain with the carrot, "We'll give you preferential hiring at Delta." Excuse me? What part of us trying to make our airline a place to retire from did you not understand?

And now, you expect threats about not hiring Comair pilots to change the union's position? I never harbored any aspirations to work for Delta. Neither have a significant number of the other pilots here. If I wanted to be a Delta pilot, I would have never stayed in my MOS (Cobras) and I wouldn't have spent 22 years in the Marine Corps.

If your MEC had said, "I know we've had our problems, but from a standpoint of human decency, and from a concern for our furloughed pilots and their families, we're asking that you consider helping us get DCI management to waive the requirement to resign a Delta seniority number to work at Comair" I might be able to agree with this moral grandstanding. But it was a simple trade and threat proposal. We give you Comair guys preferential hiring at Delta mainline, and if you won't do as we say, we dirt you publicly and refuse to hire your youngest most junior pilots, who didn't have any say in this disagreement to begin with.

I still think that all of my furloughed friends and mil bubbas at Delta...and AA and United and USAir and Continental, should be able to come to Comair and hold their seniority number at their parent airline. I even feel that way knowing that when that large chunk of pilots are recalled at one time, it will without question cause the Comair pilot group serious problems. But I don't see any particular connection to the Delta mainline pilot group, particularly if Gen Lee is any representation of that group. You've been saying for years that we are separate companies. We're both owned by Delta Inc., but Comair isn't owned by the Delta mainline pilot group. We aren't your pawn to be ordered about at will.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ok guys, some one with first hand knowledge of the ASA MEC needs to weigh in here. Yes, the ASA MEC did request the hiring of Delta furloughed pilots at ASA, the company agreed to waive the resignation of the Delta seniority number. The ASA MEC even went as far as to request the hiring on a preferential basis and one of the HR folks (my sim partner in upgrade) advised that the MEC had worked out specific numbers of openings for Delta pilots. This number changed from month to month and at times conflicted with obligations with the Flight Safety program.

So yes, the ASA MEC did put forward considerable effort. As important is why the ASA MEC did this. As Surplus explained, ALPA National (Delta MEC) maintains some control over the ASA MEC by effectively running the MEC in bankruptcy. Any funds for our negotiations come from "Contingency Funds" that are over and above the meager, inadequate, budget the MEC has. If our MEC dares to make the Delta MEC angry, our money dries up.

J.C. Lawson was correct to ask the Delta MEC to cooperate in addressing brand scope. The ASA MEC should have stood with our Comair brothers, (asking for Brand Scope) but pragmatically we must obey the commands of the Delta MEC. We are in contract negotiations.

I don't expect that ASA pilots, or our MEC, will get any benefit from this deal with the Delta MEC.

 

[208starcheck]

Comair called me on Weds for an interview. I'm not understanding why they would do that if they are asking for people to leave. Has anyone from the Comair seen anything in writing.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

Why don't you think the Delta MEC will follow a preferential hiring of ASA pilots? Do you know why he will? Because guys like me and people in the 1060 will tell him to stick to it. I cannot be sure that all the hiring will be ASA exclusive, but there will be a good ratio. I keep saying that I was one of 6 civilians in my class of thirty, and I am sure the ratio will be better for ASA pilots. We won't forget when this is over---and you can bank on it. I personally helped people get interviews, and now they are furloughed. I haven't forgotten about them, and I won't forget about the assistance from ASA. Even if I am the only one over there giving my opinion, I will be loud for sure.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

I agree, and when I come back I will be sure to voice my opinion that ASA guys should be given a much easier route to Delta.(and act on that to try to make it happen)

I was one of 15 civilians out of 30 in my Delta class.

Thank you ASA.

NYR

(Rangers suck, but I still love em)

 

[Heavy Set]

Cut General Lee some slack...

I don't know why people disagree so much with General Lee. Yes he is passionate and vehement about his position. He seems to understand the current contract better than ANYONE I have ever heard. A contract is a contract - right? And he supports his fellow pilots who have been furloughed... If Comair furloughed 500 pilots and none of them were granted "open" seats at Chit-Talk, wouldn't Comair pilots be upset? Sure, Chit-Talk is not owned by Delta, but the point is made.

For the Comair guys - let's say that you are a furloughed Delta pilot instead - would you appreciate General Lee's efforts and opinions on your behalf? Would you? YES YOU WOULD - he is loyal to his fellow Delta pilots and you should appreciate that.

Yeah, General Lee can be real CRASS and a bit cocky at times, but he is focused on returning the furloughees to the line - that is what you would expect from a team member who supports you. His point is that ASA extended a helping hand to the furloughees and Comair did not - despite receiving aide during the failed strike. That is his point - he is upset at the hypocritical nature of the situation - one side helps the other and does not get reciprocity... That's the point - very simple.

Cut General Lee some slack - if you were a furloughed Delta pilot you would really appreciate his efforts on your behalf - he is a good person to have on your team - despite his CRASSNESS...