Comair Pilots - WARNING, WARNING!

[Caveman]

FWIW, I just got notification that Butrell HAS agreed to meet with our MEC on Tuesday. So much for the end run, union busting conspiracy.

 

[buttercup]

FWIW, I just got notification that Butrell HAS agreed to meet with our MEC on Tuesday. So much for the end run, union busting conspiracy.

God Bless the Comair pilots!!! They are tough.. They have the biggest set of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing balls in this whore industry. If this **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing post doesnt get me in the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing penalty box I dont know what the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** will..

 

[~~~^~~~]

We don't know that it's a lie, but we do know that ASA/CMR MECs had written up a DOH integration between themselves, do we know what they had in mind for DAL?

We know that they applied under ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy, a policy implemented by ALPA which avoids a windfall to any pilot group. Historically it has been by paycheck, or equipment - in this case that would be a staple. We also know that they did not proffer any seniority integration scheme with the Delta pilots, none, nothing, zippo, didn't do it....

The same MEC that has insisted on integrating the CMR pilots into the Delta seniority list according to date of hire?

That statement is still a lie.

 

[CMRoutlaw]

9rj, if you're so in love with the growth of CHQ, then apply. It sounds to me you're more worried about getting off reserve and a quick upgrade than anything else.

The pilot group at Comair set an example with the strike that the rest of us should applaud. They made the airline a place that a pilot could spend his career if he chose to do so. Something very important in this day.

The days of spending a few years in the regionals and then moving on to a high paying career at the majors are over. You need to realize this, and strive to improve the wages and working conditions at your carrier, rather than cave in to management in the hopes that they will buy you a few more shiny new jets.

Please! You sound like one of the many Captains I fly with who preach this crap after they convienantly PFTed their way to the quick upgrade themselves. Now that they are in a good spot they're suddenly on some holier than thou soapbox about protecting the profession. Are you one of these guys? Are you sure this isn't about protecting your own little wallet? If you and all these other folks care so much about us FOs, I'm sure you'd be glad to help us out who didn't have the same upgrade oppurtunity you had by giving us a chunk of your paycheck. Yeah...I didn't think so. I don't need to realize anything...you sir need to realize that as long as the other regional pilot groups don't play along with us (which up to this point NO ONE has), then DCI has us by the balls. If we don't come down closer to their level this company will not exist in ten years. When you don't own your flying, tell me what good will stone walling do? Most CMR pilots live in a fantasy world that we're wildly profitable despite having no evidence whatsoever except DOT stats that no one believes. I hear stuff like " I know we made tons of money in 1999 so we must STILL be doing well"...never mind the $50 barrels of of oils and the highest labor cost in the industry. I don't want to talk paycuts for growth, I want to talk pay cuts for a future.

 

[CarjCapt]

It's not "hear say" when he's the one who heard it himself. That's evidence. If on the other hand I were to relate that someone told me that he over heard it, that's "hear say".

Thank you, I stand corrected. However, that doesn't provide proof.

 

[FDJ2]

We know that they applied under ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy, a policy implemented by ALPA which avoids a windfall to any pilot group. Historically it has been by paycheck, or equipment - in this case that would be a staple. We also know that they did not proffer any seniority integration scheme with the Delta pilots, none, nothing, zippo, didn't do it....That statement is still a lie.

I didn't say that the ASA/CMR MECs proffered a DOH integration with DAL pilots. Moving on, we do know that the application was considered in accordance with the ALPA Administrative Manual and C&BLs and after listening to all concerned parties the application was denied.

We also know that DAL was under no obligation to integrate lists regardless of the outcome of the PID and that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

 

[Treme]

Outlaw

Comair Outlaw,

Good post. Comair does not exist in a vacuum. There are economic realities that exist in a maturing industry. You can't close your eyes and pretend that they don't exist. It is awfully easy to sit in the left seat with a nice paycheck and preach "defending the profession". You can do it, but you better make darned sure that during contract time you make F/O pay and work-rules something that people can live with for the better part of a decade.

"...after they convienantly PFTed their way to the quick upgrade themselves. Now that they are in a good spot they're suddenly on some holier than thou soapbox... "

Funny stuff! Remember the Academy mantra: "Jets R Neat! How much should I make that check out for?"

 

[chperplt]

As long as we continue to have lower overall costs (the figure that actually matters) than any other DCI carrier, I'll gladly sit RSV awaiting any growth that may or may not arrive.

If we can't get growth with the LOWEST cost structure, then we still won't get growth with a lower cost structure.

 

[bvt1151]

I don't know who I trust less the Comair MEC or Management.

I really wish I disagreed with you.

 

[RJFlyer]

you sir need to realize that as long as the other regional pilot groups don't play along with us (which up to this point NO ONE has)

ASA pilots have. Get your facts straight.

 

[spinproof]

Here you go Surplus1

From: CMRMEC-PilotGroup Reviewer
Date: 01/22/05 18:16:48
To: [email protected]
Subject: Comair management replies to MEC's invitation


*_Update:_* Late on Friday evening our vice-president of Flight Operations contacted MEC Chairman J.C. Lawson to work out a meeting with our newly appointed president, Fred Buttrell. They agreed to meet on the evening of Tuesday the 24th.

Your MEC will communicate with you on the issues discussed in this meeting shortly there after.(end)

My only question is why did it take all day Saturday for us to get this information? Wouldn't you think something so Important as this would be sent out Immediatly?....or as an afterthought! For those of you that think this MEC has your best interest in mind,and not their own, consider the above!

 

[jarhead]

The 24th is a Monday. So which is it.....Monday the 24th or Tuesday, which is the 25th?

 

[michael707767]

Mike,

How can I take things less literally when you put it in such a way?

We need to work together to right the ship..

Hey, sorry. Really, I don't mean to piss you off. For me I just try not to take anything I read on this forum too seriously. I know sometimes people say things they don't really mean, or say things kinda tongue in cheek. It's tough on a forum for it to come accross that way when you mean it too.

I realize that we need to work together, but just like you guys, I get tired of all the blame for no cooperative effort being aimed at the Delta guys. Frankly, both side have done things that kill any effort at cooperation.
Michael

 

[doh]

CMRoutlaw,

I agree that we don't live in a vacuum. When they last approached us about cuts, we asked how much growth for our investment. I got that straight from an MEC officer. They said, err growth, ya know. Well, one airplane = growth. How much sooner will you upgrade with that much growth? Remember, negotioations also do not exist in a vacuum. If we get something of value in return, we will give something of value to get it. Keep the faith. I think eventually you will see a narrowing of the pay diferencial between the 50 and the 70. I say that because it seems every one else is doing it and we are still a pretty junior airline. Look at the captain list. 7 or 8 years gets you into the top half of the list. If we trade the pay diference there it will not please the senior crowd but I don't think they have the votes to stop it. And again, other carriers have already done it. I am not in favor of this, I just look at the trend and the seniority and predict. Remember too, I said USAirways wasthrough, so what do I know!

 

[CF34-3B1]

Just curious...how many furloughed pilots went to ASA..do you know?

Last time I looked, it was in the mid 20s

Most furloughed guys just can't afford to work here.

If we had been able to get furloughed guys longevity for pay purposes, I think the number would be much much higher.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We do know that the application was considered in accordance with the ALPA Administrative Manual and C&BLs and after listening to all concerned parties the application was denied.

We also know that DAL was under no obligation to integrate lists regardless of the outcome of the PID and that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Jeesh, No, you are incorrect. Out of respect I will avoid the "L" word, since it seems like you at least try to get this stuff straight.

(1) The Delta MEC, specifically Chuck Giambusso, provided false and misleading information to the ALPA BOD regarding employment rights issues negotiated between ALPA and the Delta MEC. ALPA acknowledged this false information, although they knew better, and used the recently revised C&BL language with the term "operational integration" undefined to deny a proper PID application.

The existence of the secret side letter of agreement covering bid restricted second officers is not the smoking gun, but it proves what a complete sham the Delta MEC made of the 2000 BOD meeting. For the purposes of our discussion, it was the Delta MEC that killed the PID, directly resulting in the furlough of Delta pilots and further diversification of the portfolio being used to whipsaw ALPA groups against each other.

(2) We do not know the outcome of the denied PID because it never happened. Under US labor law, Delta would have been hard pressed to stop a single carrier petition if it had ALPA's weight behind it. This is a matter of law, not a matter of corportate whim. Employees have the right to band together for the purposes of collective bargaining and Companies are forced to recognize them.

In my opinion it is a lousy excuse for the Delta MEC, or anyone else, to explain away their malfeasance by saying - " sure, we lied, we started a civil war in ALPA, an we brought down the profession, but it does not matter because it was going to happen anyway. "

We also know ...that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Of course it isn't. Because your MEC killed the PID, your pilots were furloughed while I upgraded. Your pilots are the guys who were damaged. Now these same guys will have the opportunity to fly E170's at Republic for $10 an hour less than I earn.

 

[FDJ2]

Originally Posted by FDJ2
We do know that the application was considered in accordance with the ALPA Administrative Manual and C&BLs and after listening to all concerned parties the application was denied.

We also know that DAL was under no obligation to integrate lists regardless of the outcome of the PID and that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Jeesh, No, you are incorrect. Out of respect I will avoid the "L" word, since it seems like you at least try to get this stuff straight.

What did I say that was incorrect?

(1) The Delta MEC, specifically Chuck Giambusso, provided false and misleading information to the ALPA BOD regarding employment rights issues negotiated between ALPA and the Delta MEC. ALPA acknowledged this false information, although they knew better, and used the recently revised C&BL language with the term "operational integration" undefined to deny a proper PID application.

Is this part of your claim/lawsuit? Could you be more specific as to what the false information was? Wasn't ALPA obliged to use the most current C&BLs when considering the PID? Your statement of fact seems more of a stringing together of your opinion as to what was said/interpretted and then pasting it to the denial of the PID.
The existence of the secret side letter of agreement covering bid restricted second officers is not the smoking gun, but it proves what a complete sham the Delta MEC made of the 2000 BOD meeting.

Can you back that up and post the secret letter and are we talking about the BOD or the PID?

For the purposes of our discussion, it was the Delta MEC that killed the PID, directly resulting in the furlough of Delta pilots and further diversification of the portfolio being used to whipsaw ALPA groups against each other.

Directly resulting in the furlough? That's a bit of a stretch. The furloughs were a direct result of 9-11 a FM event. Stretching your case doesn't add credibility to it.

(2) We do not know the outcome of the denied PID because it never happened.

We also know as a fact that the PID is not binding on Delta.

Under US labor law, Delta would have been hard pressed to stop a single carrier petition if it had ALPA's weight behind it.

An assumption based on no facts. You don't need a PID to file for single carrier status and you certainly don't need ALPA's blessing.

This is a matter of law, not a matter of corportate whim. Employees have the right to band together for the purposes of collective bargaining and Companies are forced to recognize them.

But then again you are not a Delta employee and that is recognized by law, so your point is moot.

In my opinion it is a lousy excuse for the Delta MEC, or anyone else, to explain away their malfeasance by saying - " sure, we lied, we started a civil war in ALPA, an we brought down the profession, but it does not matter because it was going to happen anyway. "

That of course is your spin on it. Could you please post what the specific lie was? Evidently this "lie" seems to be the cornerstone of why you believe the PID was denied and it appears that you believe that ALPA itself recognizes this very important lie, so why not push for another PID with the truth? Unless of course this is more spin then substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDJ2
We also know ...that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Of course it isn't. Because your MEC killed the PID, your pilots were furloughed while I upgraded. Your pilots are the guys who were damaged. Now these same guys will have the opportunity to fly E170's at Republic for $10 an hour less than I earn.

Just curious, but are you interested in what was best for the profession or just your narrow agenda? If the PID was good for all in 1999 it must also be good for all in 2005.

 

[CRJ Driver]

I actually spoke to a senior Comair Captian who told me thatverbatim (he expected to be merged into the DAL list according todate-of-hire)about 5-6 years ago (pre 9-11). No joke - he wasvery serious. You can slam Six all you want but I haveactually heard it myself.

Dont listen to heavy set, he's not a pilot, he probably pumps gas at a FBO.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

He IS a pilot and I also have heard those same words from some senior capts here...yes a few years ago but still the same.

 

[Heavy Set]

Dont listen to heavy set, he's not a pilot, he probably pumps gas at a FBO.

Oh you got me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would you like a windshield wipe with your gas?