Comair Pilots - WARNING, WARNING!

[~~~^~~~]

We do know that the application was considered in accordance with the ALPA Administrative Manual and C&BLs and after listening to all concerned parties the application was denied.

We also know that DAL was under no obligation to integrate lists regardless of the outcome of the PID and that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Jeesh, No, you are incorrect. Out of respect I will avoid the "L" word, since it seems like you at least try to get this stuff straight.

(1) The Delta MEC, specifically Chuck Giambusso, provided false and misleading information to the ALPA BOD regarding employment rights issues negotiated between ALPA and the Delta MEC. ALPA acknowledged this false information, although they knew better, and used the recently revised C&BL language with the term "operational integration" undefined to deny a proper PID application.

The existence of the secret side letter of agreement covering bid restricted second officers is not the smoking gun, but it proves what a complete sham the Delta MEC made of the 2000 BOD meeting. For the purposes of our discussion, it was the Delta MEC that killed the PID, directly resulting in the furlough of Delta pilots and further diversification of the portfolio being used to whipsaw ALPA groups against each other.

(2) We do not know the outcome of the denied PID because it never happened. Under US labor law, Delta would have been hard pressed to stop a single carrier petition if it had ALPA's weight behind it. This is a matter of law, not a matter of corportate whim. Employees have the right to band together for the purposes of collective bargaining and Companies are forced to recognize them.

In my opinion it is a lousy excuse for the Delta MEC, or anyone else, to explain away their malfeasance by saying - " sure, we lied, we started a civil war in ALPA, an we brought down the profession, but it does not matter because it was going to happen anyway. "

We also know ...that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Of course it isn't. Because your MEC killed the PID, your pilots were furloughed while I upgraded. Your pilots are the guys who were damaged. Now these same guys will have the opportunity to fly E170's at Republic for $10 an hour less than I earn.

 

[FDJ2]

Originally Posted by FDJ2
We do know that the application was considered in accordance with the ALPA Administrative Manual and C&BLs and after listening to all concerned parties the application was denied.

We also know that DAL was under no obligation to integrate lists regardless of the outcome of the PID and that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Jeesh, No, you are incorrect. Out of respect I will avoid the "L" word, since it seems like you at least try to get this stuff straight.

What did I say that was incorrect?

(1) The Delta MEC, specifically Chuck Giambusso, provided false and misleading information to the ALPA BOD regarding employment rights issues negotiated between ALPA and the Delta MEC. ALPA acknowledged this false information, although they knew better, and used the recently revised C&BL language with the term "operational integration" undefined to deny a proper PID application.

Is this part of your claim/lawsuit? Could you be more specific as to what the false information was? Wasn't ALPA obliged to use the most current C&BLs when considering the PID? Your statement of fact seems more of a stringing together of your opinion as to what was said/interpretted and then pasting it to the denial of the PID.
The existence of the secret side letter of agreement covering bid restricted second officers is not the smoking gun, but it proves what a complete sham the Delta MEC made of the 2000 BOD meeting.

Can you back that up and post the secret letter and are we talking about the BOD or the PID?

For the purposes of our discussion, it was the Delta MEC that killed the PID, directly resulting in the furlough of Delta pilots and further diversification of the portfolio being used to whipsaw ALPA groups against each other.

Directly resulting in the furlough? That's a bit of a stretch. The furloughs were a direct result of 9-11 a FM event. Stretching your case doesn't add credibility to it.

(2) We do not know the outcome of the denied PID because it never happened.

We also know as a fact that the PID is not binding on Delta.

Under US labor law, Delta would have been hard pressed to stop a single carrier petition if it had ALPA's weight behind it.

An assumption based on no facts. You don't need a PID to file for single carrier status and you certainly don't need ALPA's blessing.

This is a matter of law, not a matter of corportate whim. Employees have the right to band together for the purposes of collective bargaining and Companies are forced to recognize them.

But then again you are not a Delta employee and that is recognized by law, so your point is moot.

In my opinion it is a lousy excuse for the Delta MEC, or anyone else, to explain away their malfeasance by saying - " sure, we lied, we started a civil war in ALPA, an we brought down the profession, but it does not matter because it was going to happen anyway. "

That of course is your spin on it. Could you please post what the specific lie was? Evidently this "lie" seems to be the cornerstone of why you believe the PID was denied and it appears that you believe that ALPA itself recognizes this very important lie, so why not push for another PID with the truth? Unless of course this is more spin then substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDJ2
We also know ...that the denial of the PID is not part of any claim against ALPA.

Of course it isn't. Because your MEC killed the PID, your pilots were furloughed while I upgraded. Your pilots are the guys who were damaged. Now these same guys will have the opportunity to fly E170's at Republic for $10 an hour less than I earn.

Just curious, but are you interested in what was best for the profession or just your narrow agenda? If the PID was good for all in 1999 it must also be good for all in 2005.

 

[CRJ Driver]

I actually spoke to a senior Comair Captian who told me thatverbatim (he expected to be merged into the DAL list according todate-of-hire)about 5-6 years ago (pre 9-11). No joke - he wasvery serious. You can slam Six all you want but I haveactually heard it myself.

Dont listen to heavy set, he's not a pilot, he probably pumps gas at a FBO.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

He IS a pilot and I also have heard those same words from some senior capts here...yes a few years ago but still the same.

 

[Heavy Set]

Dont listen to heavy set, he's not a pilot, he probably pumps gas at a FBO.

Oh you got me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would you like a windshield wipe with your gas?

 

[FR8mastr]

I dont know the dynamics of the CMR MEC but regardless of your personal politics dont let management get there hooks into some of the pilot group. Look at what has happened to ALG/PDT for an example of what can happen. If you dont like your MEC than elect a new one. For cripes sakes dont believe mgmt. They know where their paychecks come from and its not from you!

 

[surplus1]

I dont know the dynamics of the CMR MEC but regardless of your personal politics dont let management get there hooks into some of the pilot group. Look at what has happened to ALG/PDT for an example of what can happen. If you dont like your MEC than elect a new one. For cripes sakes dont believe mgmt. They know where their paychecks come from and its not from you!

Thank you very much! Your words are those of a wise man, and I do know the dynamics.

Regardless of what differences we may have with members or officers of our MEC, it is ours and ours alone. We can make whatever changes we wish, whenever we please. Until we do make such changes, our MEC is the only voice we have and we should NOT allow it to be circumvented. After we've made changes, the new MEC will also be ours, and we must all stand behind it. Either way it's the only way to succeed.

Good, bad or indifferent, if we fail to speak with one voice to our management, which can only be done by our MEC, we will have lost the game before it even begins. Political infighting, especially in public, is the road to certain defeat. Solidarity is the only hope for success. It is not logical that we should make ourselves our own worst enemy.

We are not yet at the bargaining table. If and when we get there it had better be the MEC that speaks for us for if it is not, I can guarantee that no one else will. The 40 pilots that fell into the trap won't be at "the table". "A house divided against itself cannot stand." As Pogo said, "we have found the enemy and he is us."

Until management is certain that the elected representatives of the pilots have the full support of the pilots we will get nowhere, period. If new leaders are the will of the pilots, then chose them and do so quickly for time is of the essence. The hatchet man isn't coming, he's already here. Getting involved in special "management meetings" with small groups of pilots sends only ONE message .... we are divided and weak; easy game. The predator always singles out the weakeast member of the herd for his kill.

New leadership may very well be in the best interests of Comair pilots. But, a divided pilot group most certainly is not. Someone very wise once said, "A fool and his money soon part." Someone else said: "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer."

I strongly recommend that we should not become our own "lawyers" or we will certainly be proven fools.

 

[surplus1]

FWIW, I just got notification that Butrell HAS agreed to meet with our MEC on Tuesday. So much for the end run, union busting conspiracy.

Caveman,

You're a smart guy; give this thing some more thought. Is there any possibility that this rather new and sudden response to the MEC's request for a meeting comes as a direct response to the unexpected (by him) reaction of the MEC to Mr. Butrell's attempt to bypass the MEC and meet directly with "40 pilots that volunteer through the CP?"

Think about the sequence of events. Butrell makes a move in the wrong direction. The MEC calls him on it, quickly and publicly. Butrell responds by making a move in the right direction, overnight.

He tested the water and found it to be cold, so he decided to warm it a little with a palatable response of let's call it "good will". Maybe he sat down with the VP of Ops who gave him a little advice or maybe he called it on his own. It doesn't really matter. It's a smart move and a welcome one.

Think a little more ...... what is this man's experience in dealing with an organized labor group? Does he have such experience in his dossier? Check out his resume and find out just how much airline experience he has and in what capacity. He went to school at the AF Academy. I don't think they even offer a course in labor relations. He's also a fighter pilot. Think about the personality traits of a fighter pilot, then convert them to a manager. What does a fighter pilot do if he "breaks" left and discovers it was the wrong move?

The rapidity with which his proffer of a meeting followed the MEC's public reaction to his original manuever is unlikely to be a coincidence. If you want to, I'm sure you can figure this out without any help from me.

Yes, some executives can be trusted. However, it is seldom wise to give that trust until you can see the white of his eyes. As a marine I'm sure you know when to place your trust in a soldier from a different country.

 

[CMRoutlaw]

My MEC speaks for me?????

CMRoutlaw,

I agree that we don't live in a vacuum. When they last approached us about cuts, we asked how much growth for our investment. I got that straight from an MEC officer. They said, err growth, ya know. Well, one airplane = growth. How much sooner will you upgrade with that much growth? Remember, negotioations also do not exist in a vacuum. If we get something of value in return, we will give something of value to get it. Keep the faith. I think eventually you will see a narrowing of the pay diferencial between the 50 and the 70. I say that because it seems every one else is doing it and we are still a pretty junior airline. Look at the captain list. 7 or 8 years gets you into the top half of the list. If we trade the pay diference there it will not please the senior crowd but I don't think they have the votes to stop it. And again, other carriers have already done it. I am not in favor of this, I just look at the trend and the seniority and predict. Remember too, I said USAirways wasthrough, so what do I know!

One thing that bugs me about our ALPA group is their failure to communicate with us. Did you know that during the talk of the RFP in late 2003, the pay cuts that mgt was proposing were contingent upon the aircraft arriving on property? I ask because most of our pilots do not know that. The story communicated through ALPA was that mgt wanted pay cuts for the possibility of growth. Thats kind of a key difference, don't you think? It flat out wasn't accurate but to this day most of our pilots don't know the full story and I blame our ALPA reps for the lack of communication. Now say we had looked at the proposal and, as you are saying, mgt said growth equals one aircraft. Fine, then we shoot the idea down. But say the growth is defined as 50 seventy seaters, say E-170s which would bring us into the next generation of aircraft, then I'd say we at least have something worth debating. But we never had that oppurtunity because our MEC decided, for whatever reason whether it be personal gain or we were too stupid, that we couldn't think for ourselves. And now they are FREAKING OUT because our president simply wants to meet and talk with a few employees...a move which most employees in any company in America would say shows strong leadership. I don't know if I can trust Fred yet but, I hate to say, I'm even more skeptical of our MEC. I don't know if my MEC speaks for me because I don't know that the H@ll they are thinking and if I ask (which I have), I feel I'm never getting the full story.

I think we need to give Fred a fair shake as we don't have much to lose. Sure, standing strong and stone walling will maintain the status quo in the short term but in the long run we will go nowhere and Comair will wither away as in 10 years people will look at the CRJ the way that we look at 1900's today. Why not do what it takes to position ourselves for the future? I'm not saying we give cuts for nothing...we should only discuss anything if it is contingent upon a large number of next generation aircraft. That would be an investment in our future. Our seventy seat pay rates need to come down. Even if Fred is trying to bring our cost down to make us more appealing to investers so we can be spun off...don't you think that's a good thing? I mean the number one complaint from Comair pilots is that Delta has ruined us through mismanagement so why not help Fred to put us in a position to be independent again? When I bring up this point with Captains I fly with, the usual response is that "yeah but then we would lose those sweet pass benefits". So you want to be independent of Delta but keep the bennies? Kind of like having your cake and eating it to, right? Wake up Comair pilots...give Fred a fair shake and look at investing in your future!!

 

[Freebrd]

CMRoutlaw: Wake up Comair pilots...give Fred a fair shake and look at investing in your future!!

Me thinks this dude is management or just plain ignorant!

 

[ifly4food]

Several observations:

Surplus1: Management here at ASA has been trying this tired divide and conquer tactic for quite some time through "Lunch with Skip" and "Chief Pilot Forums". The only pilots who go are the usual Kool Aid drinkers, and everyone knows who they are... the same guys who whine on the ALPA boards.

Fins: You said that the PID came from "The RJDC, The CMR MEC, and the ASA MEC". That is not true. The RJDC wasn't even formed back then, and if they were, they wouldn't have had a seat at that table, just as they don't now. It's inflammatory statements like that that sour some of us on the RJDC. Don't take credit for what you didn't do.

All dissenting Comair pilots: You had better get your house in order quickly. Management is reading this and wringing their hands in glee. Public forums are not a good place to criticize your MEC, that's what union meetings are for. Publicly degrading your MEC here is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do if you want management to take them seriously! Wake up!

Additionally, it appears that the MEC detractors are as usual, a very small but very vocal minority. If you don't like your MEC, start a recall. Oh wait, you did that last spring and lost. Looks like your only choice left is to criticize them here anonymously. Real classy.

 

[InclusiveScope]

asshole huh? Ok, if you say so. Not the enemy? Guess that's why you were so helpful with getting our furloughed guys jobs. You could not even keep your mouths shut about hiring furloughed Delta pilots. I'm not saying you should have been fighting for it, or given our guys pref hiring, but your MEC could not even just stay silent about it. The ASA pilots have been terrific during this whole thing, and the furloughed guys I have talked too that ended up at ASA say they have been very well received.

Michael,
Time for a little history lesson. While you blame the CMR pilots for not fighting for the hiring of DAL pilots, you seem to forget the history before this issue came about. Did you protest when YOUR MEC did the following:

1. Filed a grievance regarding ASA flying BAE 146s.
2. Filed a grievance regarding CMR flying Delta Shuttle routes.
3. Filed a grievance regarding ASA/CMR having DOH pass privledges on Delta.
4. Limited the ASA and CMR pilot's to 57 70 seaters.

Payback is a bitch! I'm sick and tired of the Delta pilots expecting ASA and CMR pilots to take care of furloughed Delta pilots. Maybe your MEC should take care of them!

 

[InclusiveScope]

I know one of the DAL furloughees who went to ASA - he is very gratefulto have a job. I am not sure about the total number offurloughees flying for ASA now. At least ASA provided theopportunity when he needed it.

I just spent two weeks flying with a furloughed Delta pilot here at ASA. Great guy and we got a long great. We also talked about ALPA and the RJDC. He brought it up, not me. While he doesn't support RJDC, HE DOES UNDERSTAND the position of the RJDC. He believes that in this situation, the ASA and CMR pilots have a point. He also said that if he had the choice, he would stop paying ALPA dues today. He believes the furloughed Delta pilots have been used as bargaining chips by ALPA.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Several observations:

Surplus1: Management here at ASA has been trying this tired divide and conquer tactic for quite some time through "Lunch with Skip" and "Chief Pilot Forums". The only pilots who go are the usual Kool Aid drinkers, and everyone knows who they are... the same guys who whine on the ALPA boards.

Fins: You said that the PID came from "The RJDC, The CMR MEC, and the ASA MEC". That is not true. The RJDC wasn't even formed back then, and if they were, they wouldn't have had a seat at that table, just as they don't now. It's inflammatory statements like that that sour some of us on the RJDC. Don't take credit for what you didn't do.

All dissenting Comair pilots: You had better get your house in order quickly. Management is reading this and wringing their hands in glee. Public forums are not a good place to criticize your MEC, that's what union meetings are for. Publicly degrading your MEC here is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do if you want management to take them seriously! Wake up!

Additionally, it appears that the MEC detractors are as usual, a very small but very vocal minority. If you don't like your MEC, start a recall. Oh wait, you did that last spring and lost. Looks like your only choice left is to criticize them here anonymously. Real classy.

Ifly4food,
The PID proposal was written by 2 of the RJDC leadership. True, there was no RJDC at the time, but it was put together by people who then started RJDC.

Regarding your lecturing of the CMR pilots about getting their house in order, you better be careful about those in glass houses throwing stones. We have some serious issues here at ASA. We have an MEC Chairman who puts personal vendettas ahead of winning grievances.

We also have an MEC that like the CMR MEC, refuses to recognize the serious issue that ALPA is in regarding collective bargaining. One or two groups CANNOT hold up the bar. If ALPA does not solve the issue of "bidding" for flying, nothing the ASA or CMR pilots will do can stop the race to the bottom. Refusing to participate is not a solution to the problem, rather it is just another lame ALPA slogan. Maybe we can put stickers on our flight bags stating that we will not participate in the "race to the bottom" while we continue allow the bidding process to procede.

ALPA has failed miserably. No slogan can stop this. Either stop the bidding or participate in the bidding. Those are the ONLY 2 options.

 

[Sinca3]

Several observations:

Surplus1: Management here at ASA has been trying this tired divide and conquer tactic for quite some time through "Lunch with Skip" and "Chief Pilot Forums". The only pilots who go are the usual Kool Aid drinkers, and everyone knows who they are... the same guys who whine on the ALPA boards.

Real classy.

IFFF:
You sir are "real classy" Although I have been to only one LEC/MEC meeting during my short tenure here at ASA due to conflicting trips. I am part of the union in that I volunteer my time for different committees. I fly the contract fly the POH /SP's. I hope ASA gets drastic improvements in all parts of our contract.
I have been to Lunch with Skip and I have been to a meeting with Fred. I resient the fact you think we are "kool aid" drinkers. I go to these events to see in person what our managment is saying. Not some crew room gossip. I ask point blank questions and watch them tip toe around for the best answer they can come up with. I hear some new news and flat out lies (from Fred)
I hope you will consider what you say more often. I take offense at your unfounded allegations!