Comair MEC endorses contract changes

[goodpilotithink]

"I don't need you to apologize for me. How long have you been at Comair. Just curious. My opinions are the same as the majority of our pilots."

Afellowaviator...your opinions may or may not be the same as the majority but they sure are a helluva lot louder which gives the impression that you're in the majority. nothin' wrong with that.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you on your feelings for this proposed change to our contract. I'm just am tired of all the bickering between the groups. We need to focus on Comair and work to keep the planes between Comair (and ASA) and not let them get into the hands of the other contract guys.

As for our proposed contract change...we'll just have to wait for our MEC to present this to us. This should be interesting...

So you are not going to answer my question?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I'd love to know what it matters how long he's been at Comair? Does his longevity make him any less entitled to an opinion regarding a proposal that might impact his career?

Seniority does not automatically grace you with divine knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Tomct]

Guys...we need to all stick together!! This is exactly what mgmt wants!! We have to STAND TOGETHER and tell them to P!ss OFF!! It does no good if we start yelling at each other! Stand strong Comair group...We support you guys and we value your support!
Together we Stand.....United we FALL!!

 

[AviatorTx]

The only reason I can think why this has not occured by now is that Delta intends to sell off one or probably both of the wholly owneds in the near future. By not insisting on a common seniority list as a deal breaking condition of the latest incarnation of the RFP(hred), we have paved the way for a spinoff...and blown an opportunity we will never, ever have again.

This is a double edged sword.

We have evidence that the spinoff of COEX was accelerated by all of the talk of a single seniority list between us and CAL. Management got scared it just might happen, and sold off XJT faster than they originally planned. They were sure this would kill the movement. It did.

 

[skyslug]

Goodpilotthink: "So you are not going to answer my question?"

What was your question????

 

[Anaconda]

In a recent ground school, a CP was quoted as saying "f_CK ASA" when asked how our two groups can work together to better Delta. He also said our current leader says the same thing.

gee, let me guess, that would be CP M.R. classy guy that he is...

 

[FlyComAirJets]

AviatorTX makes a very interesting point. The point I was trying to make is that maintaining two separate but identical airlines costs lots of money. But oddly enough, even though we operate into the same hub airports and operate essentially identical fleets (except for the ATRs) there is no back up capability -- that is to say that an Emergency AD would ground all the common aircraft. The same goes for many redundant operations such as crew scheduling. When our computers crashed last Xmas, the ASA computers could not back up the Comair operation and so crews and aircraft just sat around for days as was covered in great detail by the national media.

But I am bewildered by your "talk of a single seniority list" remark. Wasn't the flow through, especially in its original incarnation, a defacto single list? Heck, there was even a single MEC at one point. When Chairman Woerth came to CVG a couple years ago, he pointed to it as the model to strive for. He went on to say that a third of all ExpressJet pilots had CAL seniority numbers (if someone doesn't run with that statement, we are all asleep)! He was of the belief, using the KLM-CityHopper example, that management will just spontaneously merge companies as a cost saving move.

We do not fear being spunoff but I do mourn the lost opportunity. I am only saying that if they were ever going to do it (merge), they would have done it by now. So to blame us for what management in all likelihood was going to do anyway(spinoff) doesn't hold much water.

 

[AviatorTx]

We had a single MEC, but not a single seniority list. The flow up was only 1/3. When the flowback happened, it was another story. The CAL pilots transitioned to our seniority list "mostly" in a block. This is what created the defacto SSL you spoke of.

Many in the union tried to seize this opportunity to get an actual SSL at this time. Just like when the last SSL push really started to take off, this is when CAL announced the second spinoff of Express. The first one died with 9-11. Once the spinoff was complete, the SCABS at CAL that did not even want us in the same MEC, used this as an excuse to not push for a SSL, even though technically we had a defacto one at the time. We are just little jet pilots. If we want a job at CAL, we should earn it like they did.... (sigh)

We were inches away from getting a SSL at one point and time. Too many senior pilots at CAL were just not interested as it did nothing for them.

Now it's looking like we are not even going to get another flowthrough... Anyone got that number for the RJDC???

 

[Captain Overs]

Guys...we need to all stick together!! This is exactly what mgmt wants!! We have to STAND TOGETHER and tell them to P!ss OFF!! It does no good if we start yelling at each other! Stand strong Comair group...We support you guys and we value your support!
Together we Stand.....United we FALL!!

United we FALL!! Maybe not a good choice of words in the same sentence...United and Fall.

 

[Tomct]

Well Captain, I was referring to the regional guys! I can't help what United is going through....Poor Mgmnt!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

We had a single MEC, but not a single seniority list. The flow up was only 1/3. When the flowback happened, it was another story. The CAL pilots transitioned to our seniority list "mostly" in a block. This is what created the defacto SSL you spoke of.

Many in the union tried to seize this opportunity to get an actual SSL at this time. Just like when the last SSL push really started to take off, this is when CAL announced the second spinoff of Express. The first one died with 9-11. Once the spinoff was complete, the SCABS at CAL that did not even want us in the same MEC, used this as an excuse to not push for a SSL, even though technically we had a defacto one at the time. We are just little jet pilots. If we want a job at CAL, we should earn it like they did.... (sigh)

We were inches away from getting a SSL at one point and time. Too many senior pilots at CAL were just not interested as it did nothing for them.

Now it's looking like we are not even going to get another flowthrough... Anyone got that number for the RJDC???

Wow, I quickly skimmed over your post just as I was out the door yesterday and have been thinking about it ever since. That has to be one of the saddest union-related posts I have ever seen. I have to ask, what about all the flowthrough-ees? Aren't they seeing the benefits of a common list? Don't they outnumber the SCABS especially when you were all one single council?

 

[ifly4food]

ifly4food...

It's more disappointing to read your post. Do you have some connections and have seen the proposal? I'm a Comair FO and haven't seen it yet. Personally, I'm tired of hearing from pilots at other regionals about how our pilot group must "hang in there" & "stay strong". While theirs fold and take crappy concessions and are undercutting the rest of us. I haven't made a decision on how I will vote, because I haven't seen the proposal. But I can tell you that I'm not upset with Fred for trying to lead the company, he is the president, I'm upset with the selfish, hipocritical, immature and short-sighted pilot groups who have put Comair in our current position.

To answer your questions, yes and no in that order.

What I do know is that a "pay freeze" is still a concession. Your family is writing Comair a check. Think about it. The airplanes will come whether you take concessions or not.

 

[ifly4food]

If this goes through, which because the MEC endorses it is almost a sure thing, means simply that the bar isn't being lowered, it is being held level for a couple years. As for those so eager to hyperventilate over this, will your contract pay rates exceed our during that span? DDpaysoff asks some good questions. There is your answer.

However, it's still a "concession for growth". You're showing management that your pilot group is weak if you take this. I promise you, they will be back for more. Next time it will be "take a pay cut or ASA/CHQ/MAG will get our planes".

 

[PCL_128]

The airplanes will come whether you take concessions or not.

Bingo!!! Chances are that Fred has already lined up these airplanes for Comair before he even came begging for a pay freeze. He's just playing all of you. He thinks he can dangle the carrot in front of you and get you to do whatever he wants for a few more planes. Don't trust him for a second. If Delta wants you to have these planes then you'll get them with or without a pay freeze. Don't lower the bar for growth. You guys are better than that. Did you really walk for 89 days for nothing? I hope not.

 

[prodigal]

I seem to remember exactly the same thing being said during the RFP in 2003.

 

[jetflyer]

Exactly Prodigal,
How come when Comair didn't take paycuts last year, they didn't receive planes anyways???

 

[ifly4food]

Exactly Prodigal,
How come when Comair didn't take paycuts last year, they didn't receive planes anyways???

And ASA shot down the RFP and still got planes? Because Delta already knew where they were going. That situation where both MECs shot down the rfp shook delta management to the core. It was a true political victory

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Bingo!!! Chances are that Fred has already lined up these airplanes for Comair before he even came begging for a pay freeze. He's just playing all of you. He thinks he can dangle the carrot in front of you and get you to do whatever he wants for a few more planes. Don't trust him for a second. If Delta wants you to have these planes then you'll get them with or without a pay freeze. Don't lower the bar for growth. You guys are better than that. Did you really walk for 89 days for nothing? I hope not.

VOTE NO!!!!!!

 

[jetflyer]

What I find funny is that there are MANY REPRESENTATIVES from other regional airlines forcefully telling us to "SAY NO!"

Why is this?

THEY HAVE SO MUCH TO GAIN FINANCIALLY if COMAIR SAYS NO.

CHQ, SKW, etc. will all get more planes AND KEEP their 3 YEAR UPGRADES with a COMAIR "NO VOTE". PLUS THEY WILL STILL BE WAY BELOW COMAIR RATES keeping them getting all growth through the WHIPSAW.

You guys are all pretty self serving.

I think the Comair pilots will make the decision that is best for them while RESPECTFULLY CONSIDERING but not bowing down to the wishes of OTHERS.

Jet

 

[XRMEFLYER]

What I find funny is that there are MANY REPRESENTATIVES from other regional airlines forcefully telling us to "SAY NO!"


THEY HAVE SO MUCH TO GAIN FINANCIALLY if COMAIR SAYS NO.


You guys are all pretty self serving.


Jet

Not entirely true. I've already been paroled and moved on from that particular segment of the bidness. I am merely spectating. What I hate to see is the collective efforts and sacrifices of those who were there in Mar-Jun 00 to make their's and YOUR lot in life a better one be given away. As many have pointed out here before, they have probably already decided to buy those airplanes and put them with CMR or they have not and the outcome of this vote will not affect that decision one way or another. They simply want to get something for nothing if they can.

There are many reasons beyond a couple of dollars an hour here or there(and that is all we are talking about when we start comparing one DCI carriers pilot wages to another) why Delta would choose one operator over another for their feed.

So it seems to me that the "self serving" thing to do would be to pi$$ all over the work done before you got there and the work being done by your counterparts at ASA in their contract negotiations and for what? So YOU can upgrade faster.