Comair MEC endorses contract changes

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

I would like to say thank you yo Cha and Mesa pilots . Thank you for the position you have put us in. Thank you for making this all possible by agreeing to your contracts.

Do you Cha pilots ever think about the harm you have done while your flying those Delta painted airplanes around? Do you even have a clue? After all our sacrifices, we are now at this point.

I would like for just one of you, just one, to admit you made a mistake. To admit to what you have done. Maybe then say next time, you will not be so stupid. Next time, you won't fall for the Mesa alter ego trick. Next time, you will have some pride and dignity.

I am disgusted that I will have to give back what we all should have. When I say all, I mean all the pilots who fly these airplanes. All Phred needs is 50% plus one, and even with my no vote, I'm afraid he will get it.

So the next time you report for work, think about the harm you have done to ALL of us. When you pay your bills at home, think about ALL you left on the table. When your company reports those huge profits, think about ALL the money your executives put in their pockets.

Some Cha pilot was on here crying about being bumped off a flight gy a Comair pilot. This pilot was soooo pissed. Think about how that compares to the harm your pilot group has done to that Comair pilot. He complained about the 100.00 it cost him. How does that 100.00 compare to the 10's of thousands of dollars your contract is about to cost that Comair pilot?

This IS personal. This IS bad. This WILL effect the way I think when I am at the gate and a Cha pilot is trying to get on and if you can't understand that, too bad.

 

[DAL737FO]

This IS personal. This IS bad. This WILL effect the way I think when I am at the gate and a Cha pilot is trying to get on and if you can't understand that, too bad.

I hope you are just venting and not really serious about starting a jumpseat war. No one wins in such a situation. Matter of fact a lot of commuters lose.

 

[Caveman]

No question that subpar contracts are a player in all of this but I think the CHQ pilots are unreasonably vilified. They have a part in it but at least they moved forward.The recent CHQ contract is better than what they had before. They were in a unique set of circumstances and were pretty much forced to 'buy' some scope protection. No, their pay didn't come up to our level, but all things considered they made some pretty significant improvements. They did what they had to do.

With the exception of CHQ and XJT every contract change over the last four years has been regressionary. CHQ and to a larger extent XJT actually improved their positions. SkyWest agreeing to fly 70's at 50 rates is, IMHO, the single most damaging influence on the downward pressure on wages in recent memory. Don't forget that AWAC gave up 6% of their original contract.

CMR pilots have been under enormous pressure to keep the bar where it is and we've done it alone. What we are being asked to consider is a difficult choice. We may have to 'buy' some growth opportunity or continue to stagnate. How much longer should we be expected to hold up the pay levels while watching all the growth go to pilots that are willing to do it for less? We've been stagnate for 2 years. If you'll guarantee me that at least one of you will match us in the near future I'd probably continue to RISK my families future for the greater good. But where's the help? I haven't seen any. Every body has a reason why they can't quite get to our level. The fact remains, though, the CMR pilots are on an island and no one is stepping up to support our level of compensation. What would you do? Continue to watch your company atrophy or accept the fact that the industry has forced you to SLIGHTLY capitulate so that you can prosper to fight another day? If I thought that ASA was going to match or beat us I would stay the course. Frankly, I think ASA will in all probability accept what may be our adjusted contract. The fact that the ASA MEC was involved in the discussions with our MEC seems to support that idea.

I want to see the details but if it is palatable I am leaning towards a 'yes' vote. I've learned in life that you have to pick your battles and sometimes make unpleasant choices. This may be one of those times. I'm not ready to dive on my sword for the rest of you when none of you have shown any indication that you'll do the same for me. We took it on the chin for 89 days and set the standard. Four years has gone by and no one else has shown any willingness to risk their future to help the cause. We can't do alone. Until someone else steps up to the plate I'm done. I'll take a pay freeze, start growing again and let someone else do the grunt work. We did our part. Now it's your turn.

 

[Rabble]

I agree with 99% of what Caveman said but I want to take a minute to talk about this 70 seat compensation "problem".

Long before the CR7 ever appeared on the scene airlines were using pay differentials (or no pay difference at all) for crews flying different models of the same aircraft.

At Comair we treat the 70 like a totally different animal!! It's the same airplane and we should ALL be trained on it.

The 757/767 are flown by common crewmembers at most airlines (with a pay differential). The 737-200,300,400 are all flown by common crewmembers (rarely with a pay differential, Delta Express and Metrojet excepted)

PSA and Skywest crews both fly both varients.

Maybe we are the ones that are making it more difficult for these other companies to efficiently operate their fleets. Just because we are inefficient does not mean we should subject other airlines to our foolish decisionmaking. We should all be trained in that machine and, perhaps, given an override when we fly it. If not, then perhaps a blended payrate based on the percentage of CR7s in the fleet. Either way we would not be setting a precedent.

I cant blame our competitors for making a smarter business decision than our management and union made.

 

[CF34-3B1]

P.s. I welcome any pilot on my jumpseat.

That's something I hope we ALL agree on, no matter what our other differences of opinion.


Jumpseat wars are pointless.

 

[Caveman]

Rabble,

Can't say as I disagree with you except that because we were flying the 70 before SkyWest we did set the precedent. Therefore, a standard for 70 seat compensation was established and they chose to ignore it. I also think that we should blend the 50/70 CRJ fleet at CMR and treat it like most mainline 75/76 arrangements. How are we going to do that now that SkyWest has effectively said that there is no difference? If a 70 seat version of the same aircraft isn't worth more pay then how can we demand more for a 90 seat version? For example, what if SkyWest gets the E170? It only has 70 seats so the pay should be the same as the CRJ70, right? Next they get the E190 but because it's essentially the same as the E170 no pay increase for that either. See what I mean?

If the pay rates for the smaller versions of the a/c were blended to account for the larger a/c I wouldn't have a complaint. But they aren't. They simply chose to fly 70's for already established 50 seat rates while simultaneously ignoring already established 70 seat pay.

 

[P38JLightning]

freeze vs cut

DO NOT blame us. CHQ has NEVER taken a pay cut/freeze for growth.
Yes you did. Your FO's are frozen at year 4. A 15 CHQ 100 seat jet FO makes less than a second year Comair FO. Your CA's snuck in just under the bar for the junior ones, and well below for senior ones.


If you guys decide to sell your souls to Fred, suck it up and quit blaming everyone else for your trouble.
You are not taking a cut to save jobs. You are voting to take a cut to get flying.

Yeah, our flying. Our original orders and options that were cancelled and diverted to you because we have kept the bar where it has been for years.

Our CEO approached our MEC this past month to take concessions, they told him to pound sand.

Because you are growing at a rate so fast it is hard to immagine growing any faster. If faced with stagnation and *gasp* 7 year upgrades you would find a way to get the growth by any means necessary. I can see the logic now...gee if we stagnate we will be frozen at frozen FO pay forever, so we might as well agree to fly left seat for right seat pay so we can grow!

You are the highes paid... blah blah blah... That was yesterday. Today is the test to see if you can hold the line.

No friend, yesterday when you inked your undercutting contract was the test. The Skywest 70 seat pay "vote" was the test. Mesaba on the verge of a strike and caving was the test. Mesa, well, we all know how that "test" went.

If you take the cuts, to each his own, but quit blaming everyone else and making excuses.

A pay freeze barely long enough to allow some of your pay rates to catch up is hardly a cut and even if it is in spirit, it is because of your rates. Sadly there is no solidarity in this profession. You are our biggest competitiors and your pay has been kicking us in the jimmies for 2 years now.


P.s. I welcome any pilot on my jumpseat.

So do we and you know it. One isolated example, even if it really happened, is just that, one isolated example.

​

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some poor Fo will see you typing your garbage @ a hotel or on the company computer and sell you out for a $100.00. .

Comair doesn't have any "company computers."

 

[ERJDRVR]

Yes you did. Your FO's are frozen at year 4. A 15 CHQ 100 seat jet FO makes less than a second year Comair FO. Your CA's snuck in just under the bar for the junior ones, and well below for senior ones.



Yeah, our flying. Our original orders and options that were cancelled and diverted to you because we have kept the bar where it has been for years.

Our CEO approached our MEC this past month to take concessions, they told him to pound sand.

Because you are growing at a rate so fast it is hard to immagine growing any faster. If faced with stagnation and *gasp* 7 year upgrades you would find a way to get the growth by any means necessary. I can see the logic now...gee if we stagnate we will be frozen at frozen FO pay forever, so we might as well agree to fly left seat for right seat pay so we can grow!

You are the highes paid... blah blah blah... That was yesterday. Today is the test to see if you can hold the line.

No friend, yesterday when you inked your undercutting contract was the test. The Skywest 70 seat pay "vote" was the test. Mesaba on the verge of a strike and caving was the test. Mesa, well, we all know how that "test" went.

If you take the cuts, to each his own, but quit blaming everyone else and making excuses.

A pay freeze barely long enough to allow some of your pay rates to catch up is hardly a cut and even if it is in spirit, it is because of your rates. Sadly there is no solidarity in this profession. You are our biggest competitiors and your pay has been kicking us in the jimmies for 2 years now.

1) We have 2, count them 2 FO's beyond the 4 year scale by choice.

2) How is it anymore your flying than ours? Mother Delta owns a sizeable chunk of us. Do not forget, not too long ago you guys were not W/O's.
How many of your orders were sent to ASA & Skywest?

3)

15 CHQ 100 seat jet FO makes

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean?

4)

Because you are growing at a rate so fast it is hard to immagine growing any faster. If faced with stagnation and *gasp* 7 year upgrades you would find a way to get the growth by any means necessary. I can see the logic now...gee if we stagnate we will be frozen at frozen FO pay forever, so we might as well agree to fly left seat for right seat pay so we can grow!

Whatever you need to say to yourself justify your pay cuts.....

 

[uncle]

ifly4food...

It's more disappointing to read your post. Do you have some connections and have seen the proposal? I'm a Comair FO and haven't seen it yet. Personally, I'm tired of hearing from pilots at other regionals about how our pilot group must "hang in there" & "stay strong". While theirs fold and take crappy concessions and are undercutting the rest of us. I haven't made a decision on how I will vote, because I haven't seen the proposal. But I can tell you that I'm not upset with Fred for trying to lead the company, he is the president, I'm upset with the selfish, hipocritical, immature and short-sighted pilot groups who have put Comair in our current position.

 

[N2264J]

Management will always be management and you come to expect their behavior. I blame ALPA.

Our union was complicit with management in crafting the "permitted aircraft" provision with no restrictions in Delta's scope clause literally driving flying off the property.

The alter ego Republic was created while the Chautauqua pilots were negotiating to get around the US Airway's scope clause. Freedom was created as Mesa's alter ego to get around the US Airway's and America West's scope clause-enter the race to the bottom. A rising tide lifts all boats and ALPA turns a blind eye to "regional" alter egos at their peril.

Our union refused to let our MEC bargain with the entity that controls the flying, Delta Air Lines, for a meaningful scope clause.

Our union scoffed at the idea of unity at the PID and gave us brand scope instead. Lame. Ineffective. Deceitful. Designed to give mainline MECs the control to subordinate the brand partners MECs. If brand scope gets put in place, we'll have to negotiate with management and the Delta MEC-neither of which is on our side.

I'm not sure how long the Comair pilots can continue to hold up the bar alone while fighting management and their union.

If this isn't a gut wrenching vote for every Comair pilot, they're simply not paying attention.

www.rjdefense.com

 

[skyslug]

I'd like to apologize, as an OH pilot... for Afellowaviator. I thought he/she was going to stop posting a while ago and low and behold....that didn't happen.

CHQ guys did what they had to do and they got a better contract for CHQ. They were negotiating for CHQ, not the rest of the industry! Each airlines financial bottom line is different and thus not every airline will be able to "raise the bar" for the rest of the industry (although I think CHQ was in the best position to do this). They'll be able to raise their own bar which is the very least we can hope for at this time. They're not evil people, they did what they had to do and improved their contract. Sure, it might not be as good as ours (but it's not that much worse!) but that was pre 9/11!!!!! Give it a rest!!!!!!!!!!!!

Times have changed, economics have changed, management strategies have changed. ALPA hasn't.

I'm getting really tired of reading the same thing about CHQ, Skywest, Mesaba, etc. I'm sure they wanted to "raise this stupid bar everyone keeps harping about". But those days are long gone (temporarily, I hope)!!!

OO flying 70's for 50 seat rates is the only thing I can say that is annoying (besides all this bickering about how the other pilots uncercut the "profession"!). This is the tipping point (along with JetBlue's EMB rates) that could possibly harm EVERYONE from "raising the bar or their own bar".

 

[Old Crow]

Most of you guys paid for your training to get hired there in the first place. What's next? I know... Hey Fred, why don't you charge your pilots to park at the airport. Tell'em they will be flying "BIG" airplanes sooner than ASA.

Do you guys really think that 40k per year for a 5th year FO is pulling the company under? Come on...
Your pride is a stake here folks. You are headed in the direction of being the next MESA piot group.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Could you imagine the backlash should they accept this offer..

For years they have fussed and screamed about everyone else lowering the bar, and here they go and do it themselves essentially giving up part of what they struck over three years ago.

No, I have more faith that they will be smart and vote it down.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Could you imagine the backlash should they accept this offer..

For years they have fussed and screamed about everyone else lowering the bar, and here they go and do it themselves essentially giving up part of what they struck over three years ago.

No, I have more faith that they will be smart and vote it down.

What is your pay going to be at CHQ for a 70 seat jet in july 2007 for say
a 4 year fo
5 year captain
10 year captain
18 year captain?

Let's actually compare some numbers. I'm curious.




Just based on the proposal and what I have heard so far without details here are the comair numbers (provided your longevity is frozen and does NOT accrue during the freeze:

4 year FO 45.58/hr, 2%pension, 401k 50% of first 5%contribution
5 year captain 78.32/hr 4% pension, 401k 50% of first 5%contribution
10 year captain 92.86/hr 6% pension, 401k 50% of first 5%contribution
18 year captain 118.22/hr 8% pension, 401k 50% of first 5%contribution

100% deadhead pay, 100% pay protection for all displacements, Trip, duty, day, rigs, commuter clause. CVG hotels for highspeed lineholders, min line value 82 hrs max 93, 1.5 compensation for open time.

Don't get me wrong, this ain't great, and heck yes we are undercompensated, but these rates you see above including the freeze put Comair in a position to compete especially in a competitive environment after a divestiture and not just bleed away slowly while others thrive on lower labor costs. There are two things I think that the comair pilot group would even consider negotiating down, brand scope and if the long term health of the company was in jeapordy. You either win or lose, I spoke with a former piedmont guy this past week, he had some enlightening things to say. Ask them what has been going on over there.
If my calculations are correct the new rates in '07 will be right on or probably above par for the industry. This is not whoring, it is just bringing the bar a little closer to the rest of the pack without going under it. Maybe by '07 somebody can beat it. Otherwise, we will have to give back again or simply go away. Corporations make money for shareholders or they don't, if they don't entities are eliminated.

 

[SkylerS]

Most of you guys paid for your training to get hired there in the first place. What's next? I know... Hey Fred, why don't you charge your pilots to park at the airport. Tell'em they will be flying "BIG" airplanes sooner than ASA.

Do you guys really think that 40k per year for a 5th year FO is pulling the company under? Come on...
Your pride is a stake here folks. You are headed in the direction of being the next MESA piot group.

Mmmmm...

I believe since PFT ended 10/99 (if memory serves me correctly) and many of the senior pilots did not PFT (though I don't know when PFT began), it's safe to say "most of you guys" is not correct.

Comair being the next Mesa? Hardly! We are not "lowering the bar", we are merely "holding the line" with a freeze (though the details have yet to be published) to allow those that did lower the bar to catch up. It's a delay tactic.

But you know, if this thing passes and our contract is up in 2007, perhaps it is time for the bashing to end (and I know, I'm guilty of that) and we work together to raise all contracts cause if I'm not mistaken, the CHQ and Mesa contracts should be up by then as well. Is that correct? 2007 for CHQ and Mesa????

--Sky

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I would say maybe 35% PFT at Comair. I have over 1000 pilots jr to me and I didn't PFT. Plus, probably the top 350 or so didn't. I'm not sure of the start date of PFT, but 35% might even be too high.

If you have no facts, don't post.

 

[Rabble]

The point is not how many of Comair's pilots participated in PFT. The point is who of Comair's pilots participated in PFT?

The answer is that most of the junior to mid-seniority Captains were participants. The group that makes the most noise regarding raising the bar. The loudest voices wrote the biggest checks.

Lets assume your 35% number is correct. That is still 630 pilots. That is an awful lot for you to simply dismiss. Over 1/3rd of your peers who are now, interestingly, screaming about raising the bar spent $10,000 in order to purchase an artificially lower bar.

 

[SkylerS]

Lets assume your 35% number is correct. That is still 630 pilots. That is an awful lot for you to simply dismiss. Over 1/3rd of your peers who are now, interestingly, screaming about raising the bar spent $10,000 in order to purchase an artificially lower bar.

But lost much much much more than that to go on strike to raise the bar. I'm willing to bet many lost more than $20,000 during the strike (and the ramp-up phase). Have any of you guys calculated an approximate lost in income during the strike?

--Sky

 

[FlyComAirJets]

If this goes through, which because the MEC endorses it is almost a sure thing, means simply that the bar isn't being lowered, it is being held level for a couple years. As for those so eager to hyperventilate over this, will your contract pay rates exceed our during that span? DDpaysoff asks some good questions. There is your answer.