Comair MEC endorses contract changes

[N2264J]

Re: Comair MEC endorses contract...

I hope they do vote NO. However, Fred's no dummy, he only needs 51% and talking to some of my buddies over there he just might get it.

No - a common misconception. Fred only needs 50% plus one vote.

 

[standaman]

Just wait

I think we should all wait until the details come out. There could still be a "gotcha" clause in the contract in which nobody would vote for it. We will have something to argue later this week.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

From another board. I find this a pretty good sumation:

I'm still waiting for "the DETAILS", but I have a question for you.

Has Any OTHER airline at least met us on our contract in the LAST 4 years? Did chataqua raise or meet our contract? Mesa?(joke)How about PSA, or republic, Skywest, Co-EX, Eagle? What if US AIR folds, where are there "small airlines" going to want to fly? Even scarier, What if United goes? Do you really believe any of these "other" brothers would say "no we won't fly comairs planes/routes? We'll take the hit and be unemployed." When it was THIER turn they ALL caved! The morale high ground will not feed my or your family. Believe me please, I don't like it, but it's the hard reality. We/our pilot group cannot raise the small jet industry alone, the others must join in. They haven't.
I refuse to feel bad when I fight to keep what we have, I tried to help everyone for 89 days. They in turn STABBED me in the back, and undercut my salary, benefits, and work rules.

I/we stood the high ground for 89 days and raised the "BAR" for everyone, BUT they( other pilot groups) let US down! They have undercut our contract in the name of growth.(**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty kitty) They 've accepted Jet for jobs,(psa, allegeny) contracts w/in contracts,(republic) and slashed their pay rates(skywest)to keep/improve there position. I don't see them worrying about how they effect or harm us or the industry as a whole.

SORRY they DO NOT DESERVE MY LOYALTY. We better look out for number one, US!!!!!

 

[DougCorp-9]

From another board. I find this a pretty good sumation:

I'm still waiting for "the DETAILS", but I have a question for you.

Has Any OTHER airline at least met us on our contract in the LAST 4 years? Did chataqua raise or meet our contract? Mesa?(joke)How about PSA, or republic, Skywest, Co-EX, Eagle? What if US AIR folds, where are there "small airlines" going to want to fly? Even scarier, What if United goes? Do you really believe any of these "other" brothers would say "no we won't fly comairs planes/routes? We'll take the hit and be unemployed." When it was THIER turn they ALL caved! The morale high ground will not feed my or your family. Believe me please, I don't like it, but it's the hard reality. We/our pilot group cannot raise the small jet industry alone, the others must join in. They haven't.
I refuse to feel bad when I fight to keep what we have, I tried to help everyone for 89 days. They in turn STABBED me in the back, and undercut my salary, benefits, and work rules.

I/we stood the high ground for 89 days and raised the "BAR" for everyone, BUT they( other pilot groups) let US down! They have undercut our contract in the name of growth.(**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty kitty) They 've accepted Jet for jobs,(psa, allegeny) contracts w/in contracts,(republic) and slashed their pay rates(skywest)to keep/improve there position. I don't see them worrying about how they effect or harm us or the industry as a whole.

SORRY they DO NOT DESERVE MY LOYALTY. We better look out for number one, US!!!!!

That is exactly my point, I just didn't have the time to type it all out earlier.
Thanks Mike!!! When we walked out everyone was thinking, Oh boy, I hope they get a good contract then we can ask for the same thing.

Dougcorp-9

P.S. Good luck Comair pilots. I had a blast working there. That unity will never be surpassed.

 

[DDpaysoff]

From another board. I find this a pretty good sumation:

I'm still waiting for "the DETAILS", but I have a question for you.

Has Any OTHER airline at least met us on our contract in the LAST 4 years? Did chataqua raise or meet our contract? Mesa?(joke)How about PSA, or republic, Skywest, Co-EX, Eagle? What if US AIR folds, where are there "small airlines" going to want to fly? Even scarier, What if United goes? Do you really believe any of these "other" brothers would say "no we won't fly comairs planes/routes? We'll take the hit and be unemployed." When it was THIER turn they ALL caved! The morale high ground will not feed my or your family. Believe me please, I don't like it, but it's the hard reality. We/our pilot group cannot raise the small jet industry alone, the others must join in. They haven't.
I refuse to feel bad when I fight to keep what we have, I tried to help everyone for 89 days. They in turn STABBED me in the back, and undercut my salary, benefits, and work rules.

I/we stood the high ground for 89 days and raised the "BAR" for everyone, BUT they( other pilot groups) let US down! They have undercut our contract in the name of growth.(**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty kitty) They 've accepted Jet for jobs,(psa, allegeny) contracts w/in contracts,(republic) and slashed their pay rates(skywest)to keep/improve there position. I don't see them worrying about how they effect or harm us or the industry as a whole.

SORRY they DO NOT DESERVE MY LOYALTY. We better look out for number one, US!!!!!

-Righteous.

 

[N8Dogg]

JetPilot_Mike,

I do not work for Comair but understand your frustration. When are we all going to stop selling eachother down the river? Management continues to play us (pilots) like a fiddle offering growth and shiny new jets for concessions in QOL, pay and bennefits. Where is ALPA? Where is the unity? Isn't it time to start fighting for the brotherhood/sisterhood of pilots instead of looking out for number 1? I don't blame Comair for heading into negotiations because very few if any have helped carry the torch. Good luck guys!

 

[flaps30]

nope

none, not one.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Ifff

This is very disappointing. I can't believe that the Comair MEC is really going to roll over and die this easily. They didn't even put in a counter offer! This "deal" effectively negates all gains from the strike.

If the Comair pilots ratify this, it spells the end for both an acceptable ASA contract and ASA/CMR unity. They will have sold us out for the carrot of possible growth.

I think you are over reacting JUST A LITTLE BIT! Calm down. This is NOT a bad deal for ASA nor the industry. It has defined a pay scale that Delta can agree on. It makes it much easier for us to negotiate up to Comairs level. Additionally, as I have stated on numerous occasions, more jets ALSO must be put into the QOL and pay equation. As the above posters stated, the other carriers would just as well undercut Comair for the growth Comair will get. It is almost as if the chest thumpers on here dont want Comair to get the aircraft so that their carriers can underbid to get them. Talk about hypocrisy at its finest. We, ASA/Comair, need to get all of the aircraft on our property ASAP and away from the contract carriers. There are several tools used to accomplish this and this agreement may be one of them.

I for one think it is a win/win for the WO's and a loss for the contract carriers. The Comair guys are NOT selling out the industry by taking a freeze. They will still be one of the highest paid in the industry and will still have the best contract. This is not a step backwards, and does NOT negate all the gains from the previous contract. If anything, it opens the door for ASA pay as well as establishes a whole new future for Comair.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

From another board. I find this a pretty good sumation:

I'm still waiting for "the DETAILS", but I have a question for you.

Has Any OTHER airline at least met us on our contract in the LAST 4 years? Did chataqua raise or meet our contract? Mesa?(joke)How about PSA, or republic, Skywest, Co-EX, Eagle? What if US AIR folds, where are there "small airlines" going to want to fly? Even scarier, What if United goes? Do you really believe any of these "other" brothers would say "no we won't fly comairs planes/routes? We'll take the hit and be unemployed." When it was THIER turn they ALL caved! The morale high ground will not feed my or your family. Believe me please, I don't like it, but it's the hard reality. We/our pilot group cannot raise the small jet industry alone, the others must join in. They haven't.
I refuse to feel bad when I fight to keep what we have, I tried to help everyone for 89 days. They in turn STABBED me in the back, and undercut my salary, benefits, and work rules.

I/we stood the high ground for 89 days and raised the "BAR" for everyone, BUT they( other pilot groups) let US down! They have undercut our contract in the name of growth.(**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty kitty) They 've accepted Jet for jobs,(psa, allegeny) contracts w/in contracts,(republic) and slashed their pay rates(skywest)to keep/improve there position. I don't see them worrying about how they effect or harm us or the industry as a whole.

SORRY they DO NOT DESERVE MY LOYALTY. We better look out for number one, US!!!!!

From an XJT guy, I say again......THANK YOU. I voted NO on our current agreement although your MEC endorsed the final language. However, if not for you guys we would have had very little leverage. I also apologize on behalf of our pilot group and MEC for not further "raising the regional bar". What you said was true, every word of it, and you're right- better look out for good ole number one. Your pilot group has my loyalty, something I can barely give my own.

 

[Freebrd]

From the ASA ALPA Communication Committee (something to think about):


Imagine that you work for the Whirlpool Company. You're a factory technician, trained to
program and operate the robotic machinery that stamps and shapes the sheet metal used to
fabricate Whirlpool washers and dryers.

One day, your boss comes to you and says, "We need to grow this company, and in order to do
that, we have to purchase six more Washer-bot 5000 machines and another six Dryer-bot 4000
machines. Those darn things are expensive though, so we're going to ask you to take a pay
freeze."

What would you say? More importantly, what would you think?

Your initial thoughts might be, "Wait a minute. He says we need to grow and that's good. But
if we need to buy more machines, that must mean we have to increase production. If we have to
increase production, that must mean there's a market for more washers and dryers. If there's a
market for more washers and dryers, that must mean the company will sell more units and make
more money."

As you mull this over, you might draw the following conclusion: "So if the demand for more
washers and dryers is greater than our current ability to produce them, that's an indication
that business is good. And if business is good, why the heck is the boss asking me to endorse a
freeze in my pay? And WHO picked out that tie he's wearing?"

Well, we don't build appliances; we fly airplanes. However, the story we've presented is
exactly the same as the circumstances confronting Comair pilots. Comair President Fred
Buttrell has asked them to "take a hit" for growth.

Just as the factory technician doesn't decide how many machine tools his company will purchase,
we don't decide how many airplanes ASA or DCI or Delta should buy.

Your MEC will update you over the next few days with more information about this important
matter as details become available.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

I would like to say thank you yo Cha and Mesa pilots . Thank you for the position you have put us in. Thank you for making this all possible by agreeing to your contracts.

Do you Cha pilots ever think about the harm you have done while your flying those Delta painted airplanes around? Do you even have a clue? After all our sacrifices, we are now at this point.

I would like for just one of you, just one, to admit you made a mistake. To admit to what you have done. Maybe then say next time, you will not be so stupid. Next time, you won't fall for the Mesa alter ego trick. Next time, you will have some pride and dignity.

I am disgusted that I will have to give back what we all should have. When I say all, I mean all the pilots who fly these airplanes. All Phred needs is 50% plus one, and even with my no vote, I'm afraid he will get it.

So the next time you report for work, think about the harm you have done to ALL of us. When you pay your bills at home, think about ALL you left on the table. When your company reports those huge profits, think about ALL the money your executives put in their pockets.

Some Cha pilot was on here crying about being bumped off a flight gy a Comair pilot. This pilot was soooo pissed. Think about how that compares to the harm your pilot group has done to that Comair pilot. He complained about the 100.00 it cost him. How does that 100.00 compare to the 10's of thousands of dollars your contract is about to cost that Comair pilot?

This IS personal. This IS bad. This WILL effect the way I think when I am at the gate and a Cha pilot is trying to get on and if you can't understand that, too bad.

 

[DAL737FO]

This IS personal. This IS bad. This WILL effect the way I think when I am at the gate and a Cha pilot is trying to get on and if you can't understand that, too bad.

I hope you are just venting and not really serious about starting a jumpseat war. No one wins in such a situation. Matter of fact a lot of commuters lose.

 

[Caveman]

No question that subpar contracts are a player in all of this but I think the CHQ pilots are unreasonably vilified. They have a part in it but at least they moved forward.The recent CHQ contract is better than what they had before. They were in a unique set of circumstances and were pretty much forced to 'buy' some scope protection. No, their pay didn't come up to our level, but all things considered they made some pretty significant improvements. They did what they had to do.

With the exception of CHQ and XJT every contract change over the last four years has been regressionary. CHQ and to a larger extent XJT actually improved their positions. SkyWest agreeing to fly 70's at 50 rates is, IMHO, the single most damaging influence on the downward pressure on wages in recent memory. Don't forget that AWAC gave up 6% of their original contract.

CMR pilots have been under enormous pressure to keep the bar where it is and we've done it alone. What we are being asked to consider is a difficult choice. We may have to 'buy' some growth opportunity or continue to stagnate. How much longer should we be expected to hold up the pay levels while watching all the growth go to pilots that are willing to do it for less? We've been stagnate for 2 years. If you'll guarantee me that at least one of you will match us in the near future I'd probably continue to RISK my families future for the greater good. But where's the help? I haven't seen any. Every body has a reason why they can't quite get to our level. The fact remains, though, the CMR pilots are on an island and no one is stepping up to support our level of compensation. What would you do? Continue to watch your company atrophy or accept the fact that the industry has forced you to SLIGHTLY capitulate so that you can prosper to fight another day? If I thought that ASA was going to match or beat us I would stay the course. Frankly, I think ASA will in all probability accept what may be our adjusted contract. The fact that the ASA MEC was involved in the discussions with our MEC seems to support that idea.

I want to see the details but if it is palatable I am leaning towards a 'yes' vote. I've learned in life that you have to pick your battles and sometimes make unpleasant choices. This may be one of those times. I'm not ready to dive on my sword for the rest of you when none of you have shown any indication that you'll do the same for me. We took it on the chin for 89 days and set the standard. Four years has gone by and no one else has shown any willingness to risk their future to help the cause. We can't do alone. Until someone else steps up to the plate I'm done. I'll take a pay freeze, start growing again and let someone else do the grunt work. We did our part. Now it's your turn.

 

[Rabble]

I agree with 99% of what Caveman said but I want to take a minute to talk about this 70 seat compensation "problem".

Long before the CR7 ever appeared on the scene airlines were using pay differentials (or no pay difference at all) for crews flying different models of the same aircraft.

At Comair we treat the 70 like a totally different animal!! It's the same airplane and we should ALL be trained on it.

The 757/767 are flown by common crewmembers at most airlines (with a pay differential). The 737-200,300,400 are all flown by common crewmembers (rarely with a pay differential, Delta Express and Metrojet excepted)

PSA and Skywest crews both fly both varients.

Maybe we are the ones that are making it more difficult for these other companies to efficiently operate their fleets. Just because we are inefficient does not mean we should subject other airlines to our foolish decisionmaking. We should all be trained in that machine and, perhaps, given an override when we fly it. If not, then perhaps a blended payrate based on the percentage of CR7s in the fleet. Either way we would not be setting a precedent.

I cant blame our competitors for making a smarter business decision than our management and union made.

 

[CF34-3B1]

P.s. I welcome any pilot on my jumpseat.

That's something I hope we ALL agree on, no matter what our other differences of opinion.


Jumpseat wars are pointless.