Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[NYRANGERS]

blah,blah,blah,blah...This industry sucks, blah,blah,blah,blah..**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Iraqis..blah,blah,blah....

Baseball season starts in 4 1/2 months and my arm feels great, beer still tastes good, and I found a new girl with a sweet bod..what else is there??!!!

Don't care what I fly as long as it gets me there, and when everyone here goes through real personal hardship rather then the stupid MEC's denying your or anybody's RIGHT TO A JOB then maybe you will all realize that there are worse things in the world to lose than a job at a MAJOR airline or a regional or whatever...(I'm not for or against DAL by the way, just stop bitching)

While we're at it why don't we discuss our taxes, 401K, mutual funds, then maybe I'll die of boredom...But wait the Raiders are up by 7....I'm goin to the bar to finish watching the game with my friends who don't fly and have better things to talk about.






Guy, it's an aviation forum. I am sure there are other hardships out there to bitch about, but this is not the place for that.

If you have better things to do than talking about aviaiton, then why are you posting anything here?

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Calm down.

General Lee,

With all due respect sir, if you talk-down to your F/Os in the same manner with which you're addressing the pilots on this forum you can KEEP your Delta seat.

I dont work at Comair. I'm a furloughed TWA refuge. I would feel privileged to fly for Comair though.

Quit looking down your nose at the men and women who make the CHOICE to spend their careers at Comair. Just because YOU chose a different road, doesnt make it the RIGHT road.

The Comair pilot leadership made their decision. Its their bed. They will sleep in it or they will choose to enter into negotiations again. There's no point rehashing it over and over again and bitterly threatening the Comair pilots over the internet.

Call your MEC chairman and tell him to go out and get a deal with the Comair MEC. There's a deal out there -- a negotiated deal. Not one that is thrust down the throats of either pilot group.

Hope I wasnt out of line, but I think you're being a bit hard on these guys.

All your comair guys seem to think that when a major airline pilot makes a post, he is "talking down" to you. If your fragile little ego can't stand an opposing opinion, I suggest you stay away from this forum.

The comair hiring thing is a done deal. We should discuss it no further. When Delta hires again, then the ball will be in our court and we can discuss how you guys are hurt by our hiring practices.

 

[Nindiri]

General Lee

You assume too much. I don't work for CMR, DAL, or ASA. Why do you automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you must work for Comair? In fact, why do you assume that I disagree with you? Your arrogant attitude is causing you to see things that aren't there.

Interesting, though, that you seem to think you need someone who admits knowing little about airline politics to defend your position.

Oh well, carry on. Do what you think is best.

 

[Freight Dog]

Originally posted by miller22



Unions epitomize extortion! Thats how they survive. "Give us what we want or we'll quit working en masse." Threats are what fill the coffers. Its the way its always been, and probably always will. Everybody for the common good of the union. Thats the reality of the labor market.
Besides, scope for you may be good, but scope for regional drivers is bad. Of course Comair wants to grow. Thats not extortion, thats job security. There's two sides to every story, and scope is a perfect example. In fact it seems to me DALPA is extorting Delta into writing scope clauses. "Sign your name to this here scope clause, Mullin, and we'll offer our 'protection' from a Delta pilot strike." Or how about the fact that no Comair pilot has a choice whether or not to pay union dues. The very same union dues that go towards ALPA negotiators creating scope clauses to stunt your company's growth. You call it job security, I call it extortion. You call "scope relief" extortion, I call it job security. Fine Line.

You are talking UNION vs Management, not Union vs. Union. What your MEC is doing is Union vs. Union and that IMO is dead wrong. Yes, of course Comair wants to grow. However, you are wholly-owned by Delta and serve as DELTA CONNECTION carrier, not as Delta Air Lines. Your growth depends on Delta's decisions and labor agreements in place. Just a part of being wholly-owned. I worked under those rules. While I agree with the need to have job security at a regional, the mainline pilots have the same right. Yet, at the same time, since mainline has a substantially better contract, work rules, retirement, and so forth than any DCI carrier, it would behoove the management to shift as much flying as it can to DCI. That's where MAINLINE job protection comes in. Mainline pilots are entitled to job protection as well, and since they are the majority, you have a scope clause in effect to protect them. I agree that Comair wants to grow as well as its pilots. That's why scope should be high in your agenda.



CHQ replaced Comair aircraft who were moved to DCA and LGA to replace Delta and ACA aircraft. So instead of 25% full CRJ's out of MCO, there are 80% full CRJ's out of LGA, JFK, DCA and BOS. Not to mention the business traveller's money in that market. Delta as a whole could make tons more money by using their own hard to come by CRJ's on the high yield markets of the northeast, than in the low fare, short stage length Florida markets. And instead of pulling out of Florida alltogether, CHQ is flying the intra-Florida routes to fill mainline seats. Its all a matter of a finite number of RJ's owned, and where to dispatch those aircraft to maximize profit. Besides, CHQ pilots aren't out to stop Comair from growing. DALPA on the other hand...

Interesting and apologetic attitude... would you agree that perhaps if you had a strong scope in place to protect your jobs, you'd have CMR flying out of MCO, plus LGA, JFK, DCA and BOS? In other words, WO's do all the DCI work for the mainline. Talk about wanting to expand, and job security. Not to mention more airplanes, fast upgrades, and so forth. DALPA is not your enemy, it's the management whip-saw. I'd say a good scope clause is in order for you too against the likes of CHQ, SkyWest, etc.

Unions survive on emotion, not business sense. No other organization (excluding mud-slinging politics) disrespects their opponents this way. Its blatently unprofessional and "a discrace to our profession" if I may use your words. Unions don't exist without an enemy, and when there isn't a clear enemy, they create one. Comair makes a convenient target for ALPA so you start hearing things like "RJDC wants all Delta pilots families to starve," and "The Shameless RJDC." (Actual topics from ALPA message board)

I partially agree with you here. A strong union will work with the management to keep the airline profitable and do what it takes to protect its members. Use UAL ALPA as an example, and compare it say to UAL IAM.
Second part to this paragraph, there is no reason for Comair to be a target of ALPA. I've seen those topics and most are pure frustrations by the furloughed crowd. However, the reality is that Comair is hiring while Delta is furloughing. Yet, the lawsuit alleges that Comair pilots' jobs are threatened with Delta pilots' scope. Talk about a spit in the face of Delta furloughees.

I do believe it was the Delta pilots crying foul because they got furloughed and Comair is still hiring. "Not fair!" "We own Comair. We should be flying those planes" "Not Fair!" Fortunately DALPA doesn't own Comair, Delta does. If DALPA wants to demand Comair hire them or they'll go on strike, then it'll probably happen. But isn't that extortion? [/QUOTE]

Interesting thing is NWA and Pinnacle. Check out their agreement regarding furloughees. Sure, the furloughed NWA pilots won't be working under the same rules and conditions as they did before furlough, but they have a job flying as NWA Airlink pilots. Personally, I think that is classy of Pinnacle and their pilot group, and it will benefit them in the long run. It's too bad CMR MEC had a different agenda...

 

[Lumber Yak]

Nindiri,

You are an A$$. This is a public forum and I can say whatever I want - as can you. Sometimes the truth hurts... I am not condescending, I am informing people - there is a difference.

In the end, people need to FOCUS on one thing: Comair's MEC decided to deny furloughed Delta pilots the opportunity to work at the bottom of Comair's growing seniority list while ASA complied. Now Delta pilots are infuriated. That is the point....

Nindiri, if the truth SCARES you, then perhaps you should avoid this posting. Do you deny that this entire fiasco happened? It did, and Comair pilots will now have to deal with the consequences their own MEC created...

Good luck to all!

 

[miller22]

Freight,

I have to admit I agree with a large part of your post. Especially when you said, "I've seen those topics and most are pure frustrations by the furloughed crowd." You're absolutely right. Well said.

The only thing I'd like to add is that (speaking for myself, of course) CHQ, ACA and Skywest don't pose a threat to Comair/ASA. Routes are plentiful for the RJ's. Its the ability to acquire aircraft that is the limiting factor in growth of a regional, and right now DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. Admittedly contract carriers could stifle growth later, however Comair/ASA will never grow large enough to deal with that problem if they can't solve the more pressing and immediate issue, scope.

Besides, by scoping other airlines, that requires Delta to place their planes on unprofitable (or less profitable) routes to meet scope requirements. Works short-term, but I'm interested long-term. IMHO scope (whether on the sending or receiving end) runs contrary to the laws of economics and is ultimately bad for business. With one exception...Delta mgmt is eating up the anger between the two pilot groups. So in an undeclared battle between Delta pilots and Comair pilots, management wins. Doesn't seem right.

One last thing I think should be said. Even though we don't agree on several issues, I'm impressed and pleasantly suprised with the perception in your posts. Especially with a topic as touchy as this one, it usually gets ugly and personal. Thanx for not taking it there, and in turn keeping me from making the same mistake. A pleasure to disagree with you.

 

[FlyingSig]

Again you answer a question with another question.

That's pretty funny. Have you ever read your own posts?

Hmm... let's see where we stand.

I asked you what other pilot groups did more so then the Delta pilot group. You mentioned donations to the family fund but you didn't say any other way that other pilot groups helped above and beyond what the Delta pilot group did. Is that the answer to my question? Because in this last post you didn't even recognize any of the points I made in my rebuttal.... just curious.....

I asked you (twice actually) if you were on the Comair senority list at the time of the PID. You failed to answer that question (twice) claiming it's irrelivant. Considering how you've been yapping this whole thread about how nobody will anwer your question about the PID I think it's very relavent. My guess is the PID came before your time and you knowingly went to work for Comair anyway. That means you've either been brainwashed or you're an ambulance chaser who accepted employment thinking about the damages section of the lawsuit. However if you were on the senority list prior to the PID, then in my mind it's a valid question - again one that needs to be answered by someone who was around at the time - but if you actually answer my question then I will specualte and offer my opinion in a true fox news fair and balanced way.

If, Comair pilots tried to help Delta pilots get special employment rights given to nobody else,

You mean not giving up their senority number? Yeah, just like the pilots currently flying for your airline that somehow weren't asked to resign their number. It's amazing how many can slip through the cracks when they don't come from Delta.

how can the Delta MEC that won't be there when Delta starts hiring again, guarantee that we will be considered for our generosity?

Since you seem to know which elected officials will be in office and when DAL will hire again perhaps you can set up a booth outside security and tell people's fortunes. Probably suppliment your income nicely. Considering the ASA resolution has become official I think it would be tough to ignore it... but you always have some conspiracy theory.

Of course, you think we should just do it with nothing in return after all you did for us during the strike.

Yes I do think you should do it for nothing in return. Even if you never went on strike I would think this. I don't think you need to pay anybody back (esp. as ungrateful you SDD as an individual seem to be) for benifits received during that time.

Honestly, if your MEC said... no thank, we don't wish to do that... we're a seperate airline... I would've rolled my eyes because of all the "operational intergration" talk, but I would've said fine, that's the way they want to be. But when conditions and negotiations are attached to feeding familes in need, well, I find that rather offensive. Sure... we'll help you feed your family "if".....

 

[General Lee]

Nindiri,

You like to tell people (Lumber Yak) to stay out of this post because he might not be an airline pilot, and then you claim not to fly for ASA, Comair, or Delta......Why do you care about this disagreement? Why don't you stay out? Oh yeah, this is a public forum...ooops. Hypocrite. The key point here is that we Delta pilots (and other ALPA pilots) helped Comair when they needed help during their strike. And now some of our pilots who were unfortunately furloughed MIGHT want to fly at the BOTTOM of Comair's senority list when they are hiring 40-50 a month, but cannot because their MEC is holding them ransome. "Sure, we'll help them, if you give....." You know what we gave them during their strike? MONEY. They used it to eat, pay bills etc. I wrote a check out each month for them. Now they won't help our guys or girls. Nice. That is the point.

Flying Sig,

You have it right. Some people will never understand that they are dealing with people who have families and were not making "the big bucks" when they were furloughed. These are people who want to fly and would not take someone elses Capt slot or senior FO slot---but the BOTTOM slot. It should have been a no brainer that the furloughed people be allowed to take the bottom slot. ASA did the classy thing by offering to help. Comair just pushed themselves away from the Delta "family", and this will be remembered when hiring resumes. Over 3000 pilots were
hired in 5 years from late 1996-2001. To think it won't happen again is naive. Roll the dice boys!!!

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CRJFlyer]

Wow, I think I should have stayed outta these forums today, they are pretty heated...My previous posts mostly stem from frusration from hearing about this all the time...maybe MEC stuff should be included in religion and politics as things not to discuss in the cockpit, or forums for that matter.....to all those involved I apologize if my blah, blah, bl;ah comments have offended anyone, i realize now this is a sensitive subject...

It would be interesting though what would be said if we were all actually face to face rather than talking behind a computer...

This is an A and B conversation, so I'll C my way out of it..

 

[NYRANGERS]

It would be interesting though what would be said if we were all actually face to face rather than talking behind a computer...

I think it would be no different accept that who evers turn it was to by beers would be out of the next subject.

Take care and fly safe,

NYR