Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[skydiverdriver]

So, why won't anyone even ATTEMPT to answer my question? NYRANGERS probably thinks he answered it, but he did not. It's a very simple question, and nobody will even try to answer me. NYRANGERS apparently didn't understand it, and needs to read it again.

 

[Caveman]

General Lee wrote:

"There was talk about a staple way back when, but your senior guys wanted date of hire senority. None of our 10,000 pilots at the time wanted that. The senior guys at Comair and ASA ruined it for everyone else by requesting that."

Not true. Provide just one document from any official Comair/ASA source that requested/demanded/asked for a DOH merge. This is one of the lies that has been passed around so much people now think that it's a true statement. All our MEC asked for was a PID. That means we felt that the lists should have been merged and we wanted the normal sequence of events to take place that would have had the union look at it and then attempt to provide a fair and equitable combined list WITH NO WINDFALL FOR ANY GROUP. The PID was denied out of hand. No one ever officially discussed how the lists should have been merged. I grant you that there were lots of folks on various message boards discussing how they would like to see it done, but that was nothing more than a barroom argument and it wasn't from any official ASA/Comair source. Please don't continue to promulgate that rumor any longer. It serves no purpose other than to be devisive and on it's face it is patently untrue.

 

[9rj9]

Delta needs to look within

I see the DAL guys are whining about Comair not allowing them jobs without giving up their numbers, yet they see nothing wrong with their own MEC giving us up to 49% of their flying. The junior DAL guys are getting sold out and the blame is directed toward a handfull of low paying jobs few would take anyway. Whats next relaxing the 70 seat cap, and the 90 seater ? If I were junior at Delta I would worry about my own house burning down instead of tearing down the regionals.

 

[rjcap]

The senior guys at Comair and ASA ruined it for everyone else by requesting that."

The only thing ruined are the careers of the 1,000 + Delta pilots who have been furloughed for an undetermined amount of time. You can lay blame for this at the door of the Delta MEC.

 

[Lumber Yak]

RJcap,

You can shift blame all you want - the real issue is how furluoghed Delta pilots are being treated... Comair continues to hire pilots but refuses to consider Delta pilots on a preferential basis - insists that they resign their seniority numbers... Doesn't Delta own Comair? ASA is helpful and Comair is not.

Fact: Comair MEC's refusal to consider furloughed Delta pilots for hiring has hurt its relationship with the Delta MEC. Most Delta pilots are outraged considering the help Delta pilots provided during the unsuccessful Comair strike. Furloughed pilots are being used as bargaining chips.

Result: Comair pilots will receive no preferential treatement for Delta hiring in the future (although ASA pilots will receive such treatment). If you are a junior Comair pilot with aspirations of flying for Delta one day (maybe years down the line), you should not be happy with your elected MEC and their actions.

 

[skydiverdriver]

MR Yak,
You are assuming that everyone agrees that Delta pilots helped Comair pilots with their strike. This is a point of disagreement, and is not a "fact."

 

[General Lee]

Ok, here I go again.

Caveman: How do I know the senior guys wanted date of hire seniority? Because I was there. ASA's number 1 pilot ( I believe he is in charge of the CRJ program now) told me on a jumpseat from CLE to ATL in 1998 that he believed he would finish out his career as a Captain on the 737-800 flying to Central and South America from ATL---as a Delta Captain---and he was in his upper 50's then. ASA's MEC told people he thought he could "slip in" to MD-11 FO seat from his CRJ Capt. spot. Then there was the "jumping up and down" of the whole pilot group when they thought they were going to get ALPA's senority merging policy in mid 1999. I saw it---they were all jumping up and down with glee until they realized that it would not happen. A lot of what your PID etc said was to use certain ratios etc to make it fair. Guess what? Going from a CRJ Capt to a 767FO over top people that interviewed is not right, and it would have been a winfall. Look at the salary differences----a 2nd year MD88 FO makes more than a 12 year RJ Capt. That is the way it is---good or bad.

9RJ9:
First of all, the 49% number is wrong. The actual number is 44%, and if Delta were hurting that bad to move it to 49%, Comair and ASA would likely be sold off. Delta has $2.6 Billion in cash and another $2 Billion it could mortage if needed. You won't see your 49%. The reason the MEC set it at 44% is to set the bar again.
They will not renegotiate a number again for several years, giving us time to reorganize and prepare for the next contract. As far as the MEC selling us out or whatever, we had a no furlough clause that seemed acceptable, and nobady saw 9-11 coming. You have to admit, as I have already, that unfortunately 9-11 did cause major harm to all of us, and our company had to furlough some high paying people---pilots. Ok, fine. The arbitrator in our current case said back in May of last year that he allowed it because "people were scared to fly." Well, he is now reviewing that and should come up with a new order soon. The clause in our contract stated that regardless of the economy or unprofitability of Delta---No furloughs. People aren't scared to fly, they are scared to buy expensive tickets. That is not our fault, and our pilots will return sooner than later. Then we will hire again, and there will be a lot of people who will not forget how Comair WAS NOT there for us, like we were there for YOU during YOUR UNSUCCESSFUL STRIKE. None of you ever respond to that. I never heard a thank you. I paid a lot of money to help you, and now you can't help my friends that are furloughed. Thanks a lot.

RJCAP: So, you think our furloughed guys or girls have "ruined carrers?" I fly with a lot of 767 Capt's that were with Western and were furloughed in the 80's for up to 7 years. They now make more than 5 of your Captains combined. Were they ruined?
I think that was a cocky remark. I bet our furloughed people love reading that they are "ruined." They were caught up in something unbeleiveable (9-11), and they will eventually come back and be secure again. I haven't forgot about them, and I think they will not forget about what Comair's MEC thinks about them.

Spinproof: Thanks for playing. I am glad you don't work for Comair----I couldn't believe I spent money for someone like you slamming people out of work. That's all for now.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[DAL737FO]

You can say that again. My career isn't even close to being ruined. Set back...yes ruined....no. It took me close to 7 months but I'm back flying and I got another company paid type rating to boot (G1159). Delta will stick around. Matter of fact compared to the rest of the hub and spoke industry we are doing quite well. I'll be back and I'll remember this for the future. This has been quite the learning experience.

GII/GIII FO
formerly DAL737FO

 

[MetroSheriff]

MR Yak,
You are assuming that everyone agrees that Delta pilots helped Comair pilots with their strike. This is a point of disagreement, and is not a "fact."

If you disagree then why don't you have the MEC return the money donated to Family Fund?

 

[Lumber Yak]

Skydiverdriver,

Like Metrosheriff was saying, I was referring to the money donated to the family fund. Do you remember that? How much money was donated on your pilots' behalf?

Do you think Comair pilots would fund relief for Delta furloughees now? I didn't think so.

 

[General Lee]

YAK,

We at Delta are trying to help our furloughees by atleast paying for their Cobra payments. A lot of us have tried to do more and regardless have not forgotten about them. We are trying to get them back as soon as possible, and believe that Delta will be in relatively good shape to do so soon.

DAL737FO,

It is good you got a temporary job so quickly, and soon you will be back as DAL767FO or DAL777FO. I know you will not forget the Comair MEC's remarks. Good luck.

Metrosherrif,

Thank you for your continued support.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[9rj9]

how are you helping ?

I hear you say you're helping, but resetting the scope to 44%/49% ? What did the Delta Mec really get for that ? Some back room deal with the senior guys not to take pay cuts ? What was it ? Now you jump up and down about a few low paying jobs few would take. So tell us, what did Delta get for the scope reset ?

 

[skydiverdriver]

Yak, General and Metro,
I'm very appreciative of all the money you sent us. However, compared to what other airlines gave, the Delta pilots assistance was minimal. I'm still appreciative, but please think about what impact this money had on our management. Do you think they said, "oh, look, Delta pilots are giving money to Comair's fund, we better give them what they want." Probably not. What we needed was real help, not support. We should have been all in this together, ASA, Delta and Comair.

Again, I'm appreciative of all the money you sent, but since you say our strike was unsuccessful, then I really can't afford to help your guys as much as you could help ours.

On another matter, nobody still wants to try to answer my question. Are you afraid to try?

 

[General Lee]

9rj9,

How do you know few pilots would take "low paying jobs" at Comair? IF I were in that situation, I would take it. I enjoy flying and I made a lot less than your first year guys make now when I started out in the regionals. You haven't even given them a chance to interview. ASA has only hired 13 Delta guys, but they are limited now due to the retirement of their Brasilias, and we are pleased they offered it atleast. Comair on the otherhand has slapped us in the face.

What did our MEC really get from Delta? I don't really know. I think he realized that his negotiators screwed up when they put in the contract that Delta could renegotiate the block hour limits after only 2 losing quarters in a row---something that could happen easily. I think he wanted to do something to stop the increase, and by setting a new number (44%), he did that. The 49% is a drastic fallback that all of us DON'T want to see---you included. If that happens, we may all be out of a job. Don't you guys like the increase? You went from 36% to 44% of the total of our flying. That is pretty good. The one thing we got was the hope that our eventual codeshare with NW/CO will bring back a certain number of pilots---according to Delta's own numbers concerning manning--- which should be about 1100 by 2005. Ofcourse the arbitrator hopefully will bring them back sooner.

Skydiverdriver,

Minimal assistance, huh? We gave money along with not flying struck work. What else could we have done? Tell me. Should we have stopped flying all together? I think a judge would have seen that and fined us and the President would have done something also. He didn't let us strike for our contract. So, we gave you money---which according to you was minimal. Do you think our furloughed guys wish they could get some money? We do pay for their Cobra, which is the least we could do. We have almost as many furloughed guys out as you have pilots total. How about helping them out? Oh, that's right---you said you can't afford to help them. I guess allowing them to sit at the bottom of your list would really hurt you financially, especially when you are hiring 45-50 a month. What a joke. And you said we are afraid to try? Try what? I didn't complain about writing a check out each month to help you guys because I wanted you to win. I flew for a regional too. Now we have over 1000 guys out of work, and your MEC doesn't care. This is another example of how the top 100 guys in senority hurt the chances of the bottom 1300. That is too bad.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[9rj9]

I haven't stopped them...

Just like the DAL MEC caving and raising the block hour limit without a vote, Comair MEC said no to support DAL hiring. I didn't get to vote either. I along with a majority of Comair pilots would support the DAL guys coming here. You know the drill, the top 10% rules the roost. It's a political posturing, RJDC, scope, strike, ect. from both sides.

 

[General Lee]

9rj9,

Well atleast you believe that our furloughed guys/girls should have a chance to go to the bottom of your list. That is a step in the right direction. A lot of people don't think that way. Just remember that your MEC and his views could possibly affect you later on. Yes, I also know that our MEC also is making some big decisions without our votes, but he actually helped you guys by giving in to the increase of flying, a substantial one I might add. If you want to help guys out of work, then say something to your MEC. Opposition to his thinking is the only thing that can change his mind. I beleive he would never want to go to Delta, and that is dangerous for anyone among you who might want to go someday. He doesn't care who he pisses off, and maybe you do. I flew for a regional for 5 years, and I am a lot happier here, even though this is a bad time for a lot of our people. It will get better and I hope everyone gets a chance to fly for a major if they want to.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[100LL... Again!]

___________________________
Minimal assistance, huh? We gave money along with not flying struck work.
___________________________


I didn't realize that not flying struck work was 'assisting'.

If you are referring to the assessment, I don't think Delta was the only pilot group paying that.

Was the assessment optional? At my airline, I was told it was not. (Not that I would have withheld my contribution.)

I'm not taking sides, but this does sound iffy.

 

[FlyingSig]

However, compared to what other airlines gave, the Delta pilots assistance was minimal.

You always ask questions so here's one for you to answer. (All others, please let SDD answer this one as I'm mainly interested in his opinion)

What did any other airline do above and beyond the Delta pilot group?

Please don't mention the jumpseat because that has been discussed already.

 

[General Lee]

100LL...again,

What else were we supposed to do? You're right, we weren't the only ones to contribute, but we did try to help. We advised management that we were not going to fly struck work, which was in a way telling them to settle. Management did not, and we eventually lost $250 million and the Comair pilots eventually came back. We could not do anything else because President Bush had already forbid us from striking on the earlier contract. So, we ALL gave money in hopes that Comair would prevail. Is that still Iffy? Now, in our time of need, Comair's MEC has stated that he will not allow our furloughed pilots to go to the bottom of their list while they are hiring 45-50 a month? Hmmmmm, Sounds iffy to me now. Comair is owned by Delta, and so is ASA. ASA is allowing our guys to join their list without giving up their senority rights. Why won't Comair? Still sound IFFY?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skydiverdriver]

I havn't read all the responses yet, so this is for Sig's question only.

Again, I appreciate all the support sent in by individual Delta pilots. However, the other airlines, especially UPS and American had pages and pages in our logbook of people who sent checks in, and the Delta page was pretty short. In other words, the amount of pilots who helped us from other airlines (most notably non-ALPA) was much greater than the help we recieved from Delta pilots.

Now, I realize you guys were going through your own negotiations, and perhaps a strike could have been in your future. But I keep hearing how much "help" you sent us, and compared to other airlines, it was pretty small. I hope that answers your question Sig.

Now that I've answered your question, why don't you take a stab at mine.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Mr Lee,
The thing I say you are afraid to do is answer my question. I've asked it several times, and for some reason, nobody will even try.

And you did not ALL give to our contingency fund. If that were true, the pages with Delta contributions would have filled a book of their own. The fact is that Delta's were only a few pages while the majority of the contributions came from UPS and American Airline's pilots.

 

[FL000]

In other words, the amount of pilots who helped us from other airlines (most notably non-ALPA) was much greater than the help we recieved from Delta pilots

Perhaps that's because we ALPA pilots were already giving in the form of assessments. Just because it is an involuntary donation doesn't mean that we would not have otherwise given to the fund.

That's some gratitude for ya'.

 

[FlyingSig]

Now that I've answered your question, why don't you take a stab at mine.

OK, fair enough. The PID request was made before I was on the Delta senority list. (Were you on the Comair senority list then?) Given that fact, any answer I give really doesn't amount to anything substancial. A cop out? Maybe... but honestly, at this point in my life and career, I really don't give a darn about the politics that happend before I was employed. If you have any questions about the IACP durning that same time period, please feel free to ask because at the time that's where I was dedicating my energy to.

In other words, the amount of pilots who helped us from other airlines (most notably non-ALPA) was much greater than the help we recieved from Delta pilots.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I have no idea who gave what and whether some groups gave as an "airline" while others gave as individuals.... I do think, IMHO, that the costs of publishing and distributing the struck work guide alone was probably a pretty penny. Add in the trip loss costs to develop the struck work tracking software and manning the strike center during the strike and we're well into the 6 figure + range.

If other groups donated more, that was very honorable of them. However, to incinuate that Delta pilot should have done more, well, I disagree. I'm of the opinion that my pilot group went above and beyond what was called for and if that wasn't enough for you then oh well. I'm also of the opinion that the above mentioned work benifited your cause far more then any donations to your family fund no matter what the dollar amount.


So were you on the Comair senority list when the PID was filed?

 

[100LL... Again!]

----------------------------------------------------
100LL...again,

What else were we supposed to do? You're right, we weren't the only ones to contribute, but we did try to help. We advised management that we were not going to fly struck work, which was in a way telling them to settle. Management did not, and we eventually lost $250 million and the Comair pilots eventually came back. We could not do anything else because President Bush had already forbid us from striking on the earlier contract. So, we ALL gave money in hopes that Comair would prevail. Is that still Iffy? Now, in our time of need, Comair's MEC has stated that he will not allow our furloughed pilots to go to the bottom of their list while they are hiring 45-50 a month? Hmmmmm, Sounds iffy to me now. Comair is owned by Delta, and so is ASA. ASA is allowing our guys to join their list without giving up their senority rights. Why won't Comair? Still sound IFFY?
----------------------------------------------------


General Lee, You've done an excellent job of putting words in my mouth.

I did state which side, if any, I support.

ALL I SAID was that not flying struck work and paying the assessment are very weak arguments. Neither involve going beyond the call of duty. They ARE our MINIMUM duty as union pilots. If you guys supported in other ways, then point 'em out. But the two you mentioned don't pull much weight, IMO.

As far as the whole last part of your post, again, I did not comment on those issues and you do not really know what I think.

 

[rjcap]

ASA is allowing our guys to join their list without giving up their senority rights. Why won't Comair? Still sound IFFY?

You guys have made a mountain out of a mole hill with this.

Only 13 delta pilots have come to ASA and most were previous ASA pilots. The door is closed and there will be no more.

All we did was take care of our own. Don't make it into some big symbolic gesture that its not.

Comair has every right to do hire who they want.

 

[trainerjet]

All we did was take care of our own. Don't make it into some big symbolic gesture that its not.

Comair has every right to do hire who they want.

While I'm sure all the smugness and chest thumping that the Comair/ASA guys display (both here on on the ALPA boards) must make them feel really big right now, due to the current state of the industry......things will change. Always have, always will.

The shoe will once again be on the other foot. And I'm quite sure where the foot will be aimed. The target is hard to miss.

And DAL has every right NOT to hire who they want. It's too bad that a few loud-mouths who have an inflated impression of their own importance have ruined it for everyone.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Cane anyone tell me why COMAIR doesn't accept DAL pilots??





--------------------
Cessna 152: "Flight Level Three Thousand, Seven Hundred" ... Controller: "Roger, contact Houston Space Center. g'day!"

 

[miller22]

Because, flying dutchman, no airline wants a block of pilots who are guaranteed to not stay with the airline. That and the fact they're all going to leave at the same time when Delta recalls pilots, exactly when Comair is going to need more pilots. Comair pilots (at least those with foresight) don't want pilots below them who won't be there later (sudo-seniority). You have to remember that Delta pilots only believe what they hear from their own MEC through VARS etc. With that, Comair pilots only believe what they hear through their own VARS. Its all propoganda, and now you've got two sides who think they know the facts, when truth is its somewhere in between. Even the Iraqi people thought they won the Gulf War initially, because thats what Saddam told them, and thats all they heard. Be careful pointing fingers when all you hear is rumors and propoganda. Especially in this case where there was a meeting solely between CMR and DAL MEC's, propoganda is all you're going to hear. And when it comes to furloughing and job security, emotions get high, and the stories seem to grow. The only fact is that Comair Mgmt will not allow ANY pilot to be hired at Comair without resigning their previous seniority number. Anything beyond that is hear-say.

And DAL has every right NOT to hire who they want.

And so does Comair.

As far as the RJDC, all I have to say is this:
ALPA helped Comair pilots financially during the strike, at the same time they were negotiating scope agreements to limit Comair's flying. That is not fair representation to the Comair pilots, and that is why the RJDC exists. Comair pilots pay ALPA union dues for representation, not for a strike insurance policy. The RJDC is the RJ pilots way of defending themselves, not their way of wanting "Delta pilots to starve," as I've heard some Delta pilots put it. Once again emotions run high, and stories escalate, from both sides.

 

[Otto_Pilot]

Comair

I was under the impression that if a Delta pilot interviewed and was offered employment at Comair he/she could take the job, but would be required to resign his/her seniority just like any other newhire.

From what I read on this board and others there are quite a few furloughed major airline pilots who chose to go to work for Comair. The only restriction was that they also made the choice to give up their recall rights to their prior employer.

We all make the decisions we make based on the information we have at the time. Hopefully we make the right choices. To many pilots -- including quite a few junior pilots, and furloughed pilots who were hired there -- Comair is a career choice, not a stepping stone. I dont blame Comair for trying to discourage people from using them as such.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Comair

To many pilots -- even some newhires -- Comair is a career choice, not a stepping stone.

And there are the few who, by their actions, seem intent on insuring that there will be no other choice.