Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[DAL737FO]

This is exactly how this stuff balloons up. I'm going to use Caveman as an example and I may be way off base but here goes. I notice from your profile, Caveman, that you are a retired Marine grunt. (Thank you for your service by the way) This would lead me to believe that you are older compared to some of the guys/gals your seniority level at Comair. (Join Marines at 18 + 20 years service + 3 years at Comair to date = 41) Now lets add on about 5-6 years before any possiblility of hiring at Delta mainline. So you are looking at 46-47 before possibly moving to a major seat at the Big D. So what my point, and again this is opinion, the more senior/older members of the regional jet faction are the ones speaking the loudest (most of the time) about not wanting to move on to mainline. Now if I was a younger guy/gal at Comair I might be thinking of supporting the hiring of furloughed pilots, again opinion only. I have a lot of friends at Comair that went there recently. Most are retired Army pilots. They originally went there with the intentions of building fixed wing time and moving on. Here again they are older due to spending 20+ years in the military. Almost to a man they have all decided that they will never make it mainline now and support getting whatever they can will they are at Comair. Hey it's natural, looking out for number one right? This is a subject that will never be won on this board.

Again good luck to all,

GII/GIII FO

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYRANGERS wrote:

"It IS the comair pilots fault that they "Don't support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots"."

Nice try at the spin, but we in fact do support the preferential hiring of any furloughed ALPA pilot. If you have a problem with the seniority resignation, take it up with Delta and Comair management. It's their policy, not ours.

Your MEC told our MEC to succomb to their demands or he would tell the world that we were against hiring furloughed Delta pilots. Sorry, pal, but we will not be blackmailed or intimidated by BS spin and half truths.

Gee whiz, I guess I'll never be able to work for DAL mainline. I'll try to go on with life.........

Wasn't it only around a year ago you just hired on with comair. Now you are ready to throw away your fellow comair pilots chance to come to Delta.

Look, if you want to finish your career at comair I applaud you. Some of your friends may want the chance to move on. It is not only the Delta pilots who are pissed off at your mec's actions. ALPA itself may find fauld with your group. I hope all the ALPA pilot reps in the interviews remember the comair mec's descisions.

 

[Kingairrick]

How come no one has mentioned the side letter proposed by the Delta MEC, without the consent of the Comair MEC, that Comair could hire furloghed Delta pilots, train them, give them preferential hiring consideration, and then let them go when its over. Or, that the Comair MEC only found out about this letter by accident. Maybe this meeting didn't go well because of the already present animosity between the two MECs.

To me it looks like another case of the MECs (near retirement...what's their priority?) screwing around with the future that they will not even be a part of. The pilots that will be affected have no say in the matter. When the time comes, I hope that most reasonable pilots in the hiring comitee will recognize this fact and not hold it against an individiual candidate.

At the end of the day, most pilots are reasonable, intelligent, people.

By the way, the RJDC does not ask for the elimination of scope in its lawsuit. It asks to be included in the negotiations concerning scope, when it effects Comair pilots. This is verifyable by reading the lawsuit's full text, available on the RJDC's website.

 

[PCL_128]

By the way, the RJDC does not ask for the elimination of scope in its lawsuit. It asks to be included in the negotiations concerning scope, when it effects Comair pilots. This is verifyable by reading the lawsuit's full text, available on the RJDC's website.

The lawsuit asks for reperations in the form of billions of dollars. That will destroy ALPA which will in turn eliminate scope.

 

[Kingairrick]

It does not ask for $1.

Read the complaint (as filed with the court) on the RJDC website.
Get your facts straight.

 

[trainerjet]

It does not ask for $1.

Read the complaint (as filed with the court) on the RJDC website.
Get your facts straight.

Mr. KingAir

You're right. It does not ask for $1. It asks for millions of them. (But of course, you'll have more "facts" .....RJDC style.....why they aren't really seeking this relief.)

From the RJDC website.....as you suggested:

h. as to the claims set forth in Count VIII, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than the sum of Two Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) each.

i. as to the claims set forth in Count IX,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

j. as to the claims set forth in Count X,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each, plus the cumulative sum of One Hundred Million ($100,000,000.00) as exemplary and punitive damages.

k. as to the claims set forth in Count XI, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) each.

l. as to the claims set forth in Count XII, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

m. as to the claims set forth in Count XIII,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

 

[Caveman]

DAL737FO,

Pretty accurate appraisal of my particular situation with one minor correction. I hired on at Comair fully intending to stay here until retirement. I'm open to look at opportunities if they appear but I'm counting on retiring as a Comair 75' Captain. (Just kidding.....).

NYRANGERS,

I'm not throwing anything away. There is nothing to throw away. The DAL MEC wasn't offering anything specific. There was some talk about some yet to be determined preferential hiring plan if DAL ever starts hiring again. There was also a specific reference about us having to "deal with" the fact that squadron buddies would be taken care of first. This is all about symbolism. The DAL MEC knows that the CMR MEC can't dictate or change the hiring policy at Comair. Heck, the DAL MEC can't get Ma Delta to make it change this policy yet it is trying to condemn the Comair MEC for not doing it either.

Every Comair pilot I know fully supports preferential hiring for any furloughed ALPA pilot, including DAL furloughees. Most of us also think that having a voting member in our midst who's real allegiance is to another pilot group with conflicting interests isn't a real smart thing to do. In a nutshell, we don't have the power to change the policy and personally I wouldn't if we could. All DAL furloughees are welcome and I'll do whatever I can to further the process but I want to make sure that the guys we hire are going to put the collective interests of the Comair pilot group ahead of any other competing interests. One way for me to partially determine their loyalty is for them to burn their bridges back to mainline before we hire them.

Now, if you want to talk about one list then it's a different story. At that point we all have a common interest and I wouldn't have any problem with a DAL guy keeping their seniority for recall to mainline. There are proposals ad nauseum on how to implement that and I'm all ears to any reasonable and equitable solution and I'm not talking DOH or a ratio either. Just provide a mechanism that doesn't make me furlough fodder while a mainline pilot goes back to work and I'll listen with an open mind. The problem is that the DAL MEC didn't even want to discuss a real solution. He wanted a symbolic gesture that did nothing for anyone and if we didn't capitulate he would telll the world that we were against hiring mainline furloughees. That's a bunch of BS and our MEC called him on it.

 

[Kingairrick]

You are correct sir. I didn't read far enough. It still doesn't change the fact that PLC_128 is insane.

 

[FlyingSig]

I for one was turned away from a Delta jumpseat during the strike. I don't hold any animosity, it's just that I'm surprised the mainline doesnt empathize with those of us struggling at the regional level.

Were you denied the jumpseat because the pilot didn't empathize with your strike or were you denied the jumpseat because Delta management took Comair off the jumpseat list during the strike.

Would a United pilot been subject to discipline for giving you the jumpseat? American, NWA, CAL, etc..?

The way you write this makes it seem like the "right thing to do" for the DAL pilot that denied you was to ignore company rules (even though he may have disagreed with those rules) in support of the cause.

 

[skyslug]

Delta management NOT the pilots dictated our jumpseat privledges be revoked during the strike.

 

[PCL_128]

You are correct sir. I didn't read far enough. It still doesn't change the fact that PLC_128 is insane.

Even I wouldn't argue with that

 

[Caveman]

FlyingSig & Skyslug,

You are absolutely correct when you assert that the DAL pilots had no control over jumpseat policy made by management during our strike. I also agree that it would have been foolhardy for a DAL Captain to wilfully violate that policy.

My whole point during this argument about Comair pilots allegedly being against hiring furloughees is that we are equally powerless to change the policy regarding seniority resignation. It's managments decision and just like the jumpseat policy during our strike we are either unable to effect a change or unwilling to spend the negotiating capital necessary to get it changed.

Give us the same understanding that we did the DAL pilots. It's not under our control and the DAL MEC knows that. When the DAL MEC demands that we engage in some symbolic gesture or face retribution it does nothing to foster any sense of goodwill and it certainly doesn't set the stage for meaningful dialogue towards resolving the problems between the mainline and the WO pilot groups.

 

[winged princess]

The Delta MEC wanted the Comair MEC to go to our managment and ask for preferential hiring. In return, they would give Comair pilots 'preferential interviews' after the military guys applying.

1. The Comair MEC and the pilot group does not do the hiring at Comair.
2. Comair management made the decision not to hire someone who is on another seniority list, because they are trying to cut costs, just as other airlines are.
3. When would that preferential interview happen? Five years from now, 10 years? After Delta calls back their pilots....you tell me.
4. ASA has hired only a few from the Delta lay offs. The ones who came from ASA to begin with.
5. The Delta MEC admitted that only a few would be willing to
take a job at Comair. I am guessing, not enough pay....
6. Yes, ASA and Delta and Comair are owned by the same company. So, if Delta wanted Comair to hire their pilots, they would tell Comair to do so...

Why is there so much discussion about this? These are the facts.

If the Delta pilot group would have insisted that ASA and Comair be added to their pilot group, years ago, then their would be no furloughs at Delta. But, they did not want scooter trash on their list....

Now, Delta management is a happy camper! They are downsizing the expensive Delta product and upsizing the low priced DCI...

One last thing. I am not saying every Delta pilot is so greedy, but I was sitting in the jumpseat of a MD-88 prior to Delta's pilot contract being signed. We were taxiing out behind a Delta Express and the 88 crew laughed and said, " Can you believe that the Express pilots think we will strike to bring them up to our level of pay and benefits?"

enough said....see you around campus...

 

[sleepy]

The Delta MEC wanted the Comair MEC to go to our managment and ask for preferential hiring. In return, they would give Comair pilots 'preferential interviews' after the military guys applying.

1. The Comair MEC and the pilot group does not do the hiring at Comair.
2. Comair management made the decision not to hire someone who is on another seniority list, because they are trying to cut costs, just as other airlines are.
3. When would that preferential interview happen? Five years from now, 10 years? After Delta calls back their pilots....you tell me.
4. ASA has hired only a few from the Delta lay offs. The ones who came from ASA to begin with.
5. The Delta MEC admitted that only a few would be willing to
take a job at Comair. I am guessing, not enough pay....
6. Yes, ASA and Delta and Comair are owned by the same company. So, if Delta wanted Comair to hire their pilots, they would tell Comair to do so...

Why is there so much discussion about this? These are the facts.

If the Delta pilot group would have insisted that ASA and Comair be added to their pilot group, years ago, then their would be no furloughs at Delta. But, they did not want scooter trash on their list....

Now, Delta management is a happy camper! They are downsizing the expensive Delta product and upsizing the low priced DCI...

One last thing. I am not saying every Delta pilot is so greedy, but I was sitting in the jumpseat of a MD-88 prior to Delta's pilot contract being signed. We were taxiing out behind a Delta Express and the 88 crew laughed and said, " Can you believe that the Express pilots think we will strike to bring them up to our level of pay and benefits?"

enough said....see you around campus...

That is all true. But, your MEC could have passed a resolution asking your management to hire the furloughed DAL pilots without requiring them to resign seniority. It would have been a symbolic gesture and would have cost your pilot group nothing.

For some reason your leadership thought they would be able to get something now in exchange for a symbolic gesture. Instead of getting anything now, your pilot group will likely suffer later when you need something from the DALPA guys. And someday you will.

As I said before, that is your MEC's business. I just don't understand it.

 

[skydiverdriver]

And, a couple of years ago, asking YOUR company to integrate us would have been a symbolic gesture, which would have made it much less likely that any Delta pilots would have been furloughed. You guys keep saying that they never would have done it, so why didn't you try? I've been asking this for years and nobody seems to want to try to answer it.

 

[sleepy]

And, a couple of years ago, asking YOUR company to integrate us would have been a symbolic gesture, which would have made it much less likely that any Delta pilots would have been furloughed. You guys keep saying that they never would have done it, so why didn't you try? I've been asking this for years and nobody seems to want to try to answer it.

Actually, I am at ASA. Yes, you are right that approval of the PID would have been the best way to avoid all of this. But, it didn't happen, it is water under the bridge. Of course, had we been integrated, many current ASA and Comair pilots would be on the street right now.

I am pretty sure that the DALPA guys have learned from this mistake. The real question is how do DALPA, ASA and Comair move beyond this and work to keep all DAL flying in house? We at ASA and Comair need to work with DALPA and each other. A little good will would have gone a long way toward healing the wounds.

We all need to move beyond these petty battles and realize who our common enemy is: It is not ALPA, DALPA, etc. it is the portifolio of carriers plan.

 

[NYRANGERS]

And, a couple of years ago, asking YOUR company to integrate us would have been a symbolic gesture,


If you want to integrate with us "evil" Delta pilots, it's easy.


Get a frikin' interview!!!!

If you want a free ride to something you may not deserve, SUE.

 

[Otto]

Gentlemen,
I've remained silent on this issue so far but I have to weigh in. I think managment would have nixed the idea of hiring furloughed DAL guys anyway so I don't think it's worth all the commotion it's caused by having the CMR pilot group not support it. Many of my fellow CMR pilots feel otherwise and I respect their opinions as I do the guys at DAL. I'll be honest and say I'd love to work for DAL someday but I resent a blanket policy that punishes all pilots at CMR when there was not even a vote taken on this issue. When I say I'd love to work at DAL, I don't speak for everyone...I know plenty of pilots who are more than happy to have a career at CMR. The amount of animosity between CMR and DAL pilots is ridiculous. I don't know...maybe staring down the road at a year in Iraq has a way of putting the important things in perspective.

Anyway, one point I want to make to the Delta guys here. I'd be all for a true reciprocating pref hiring plan between DAL and CMR/ASA but I'll tell you one of the big problems that most CMR pilots I talk to see with this...when hiring begins at DAL (in 5-10 years) most CMR pilots don't believe they would REALLY get any pref treatment. In other words, DAL would not hold their end of the bargain and the regional pilots would get screwed again as they historically have in these arrangements. That's the general perception. From what I heard, when the CMR and DAL MECs met, one of the questions posed to DAL was would CMR/ASA pilots get hired before military guys? The answer from the DAL MEC was not necessarily. CMR MEC asked "so you would not give an ALPA pilot priority over a non-ALPA pilot?" The answer was along the lines of "that's just something you'll have to get over". If ALPA is a true union that treats all ALPA pilots the same, how on earth can you explain this? Does this not reinforce the suspicions CMR/ASA pilots have had all along that they (and all regional pilots) are indeed second class citizens in the ALPA kingdom? It's a reasonable question awaitiing a reasonable response...Anyone?

 

[NYRANGERS]

Gentlemen,

In other words, DAL would not hold their end of the bargain and the regional pilots would get screwed again as they historically have in these arrangements. Does this not reinforce the suspicions CMR/ASA pilots have had all along that they (and all regional pilots) are indeed second class citizens in the ALPA kingdom? It's a reasonable question awaitiing a reasonable response...Anyone?

I was a regional pilot and was hired at Delta at age 27. I had 5 ASA guys and 4 comair guys in my class. The breakdown was around 60%-40%, civilian pilots being the 60. Some pilots came from other majors, but the majority were from the regionals.

This, (regional guys are secopnd to military guys thing) is just another spin the RJDC (otherwise known as your mec) uses to try to convince you to stay at comair. If your mec can destroy your chances at moving to a major, they will have many more career pilots in which to forward there agenda.

 

[Otto]

I was a regional pilot and was hired at Delta at age 27. I had 5 ASA guys and 4 comair guys in my class. The breakdown was around 60%-40%, civilian pilots being the 60. Some pilots came from other majors, but the majority were from the regionals.

This, (regional guys are secopnd to military guys thing) is just another spin the RJDC (otherwise known as your mec) uses to try to convince you to stay at comair. If your mec can destroy your chances at moving to a major, they will have many more career pilots in which to forward there agenda.

NY,
My point is that under the proposed reciprocal preferential hiring scheme, if ALPA regional pilots are not given any priority over guys coming straight from the military then how is that preferential? What do CMR pilots gain by signing up? Nothing...and that's why we were asking for a little more. Why is that so unreasonable?

As for your case, you know Delta historically hires military and at the time you were hired, there simply wasn't the military supply of pilots they needed. I can assure you that when hiring begins again at DAL, there will no longer be a shortage of fighter/C-5 jocks lining up. That's not to say you don't deserve to be there...I'm sure you're a very competant pilot...it's just that Delta has the rep of prefering mil.

As for that mil/regional thing, in case you didn't notice I'm both...I realize I (and all of us) are as much a product of timing as of skill. With that said, I'm not too thrilled about my career options being limited by a big pissing match between two giant egos. You say that wouldn't happen if we had just agreed to hire. We simply stated that we wanted a little bit more in the deal and it was open for further discussion...the reply we got was an effort to ban all future hiring of CMR pilots at Delta. If the DAL pilot group has to resort to blackmail and coercian of this sort, I think it's low and it punishes the wrong group of people. Oh well...there's always AA and FedEx. In the meantime, life at CMR is a lot better than you might think. Some union...what a brotherhood huh?

Fly Safe!