Comair exit poll

[Old Crow]

I would hate to be a Comair pilot if this passes. Why did you guys go on strike? That was a waste.
If you guys will take a 2 1/2 year freeze, I'll guarantee that you get a big tall glass of coolaid to drink in your new airplanes.

Good grief...

 

[wahoo250]

This is kind of disgusting if im understanding this right. Management went from asking for pay cuts to prevent losses, to asking for pay cuts for expansion. If that was my boss, I would want about all of 15 minutes in a side street to tell him or her what I thought of that. Thats not the way to run a business people. People have to start worrying about themselves and their position right now instead of 4 years from now. there is no guarantee there will be a year to live four years from now.

 

[Caveman]

av8tor4239,

Care to tell us who you work for?

 

[twobits]

at least they will have new airplanes to drink cool aid in and on their flights to the carribean and South America from Cincinnati and Orlando in the new EMB 170 they might even get food that is left over from the first class section. Thats worth something..... so is another base in the Southeast and the other stuff mgt is throwing in.

 

[jetflyer]

av8tor4239,

Caveman seems to be a pretty intelligent and nice guy and can say what he wants.

AND HERE IS HOW I REALLY FEEL
BOTTOM LINE IS COMAIR PILOTS ARE STILL THE BEST PAID OF ANY REGIONAL AIRLINE!!!!

SO YOU CAN CHILL!!!

BECAUSE OF THIS LOA, YOU and every other REGIONAL AIRLINE PILOT GROUP are not negotiating in the future for CHQ+1%!!!!

You're still NEGOTIATING FOR COMAIR + 1%!!

If that's not good enough for ya, then NEGOTIATE FOR COMAIR + 5%!!
THAT WILL SHOW US YOU HAVE BALLS like the COMAIR PILOTS THAT STRUCK FOR 89 DAYS DEFINITELY HAVE.

It's amazing how Comair pilots are now the bad guys. RIDICULOUS!!

Comair pilots are doing what they think is best for themselves. GOD FORBID.

You and others may not like the result, but SINCE COMAIR PILOTS ARE STILL THE BEST PAID, YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO BITTTCH!

Jet

 

[wahoo250]

I'm just bitching about the industry and its direction. I've been poor too long. However I must say a freeze is a lot better than a reduction. I still don't agree on a pay freeze for growth though. Let your neighbor buy the airplane, this way you can buy a new car. Quick question though...is there anything written in the contract on a salary freeze for management as well?

 

[av8tor4239]

caveman.. I made it very clear I WORK FOR ASA...

You walked the the line PRE 9/11, totaly different market.. united pilots were making 400,000 dollars a year...NOW we are holding on for dear life

But more importantly not only are you supporting the separation of our two MEC's the strongest alliance in the "regional" industry but you are are undercutting and VOIDING everything that you so clearly put " ON THE LINE"... I can pull up a thousand threads that you have posted on these boards about how mad you are that Chitaco and Mesa etc. have sold their souls for growth... and now you Sell your SOUl for growth...

Your vote is in.... it is too late to take it back.. I hope that the Road show, or whatever sold you on this bs made you feel good..

JUST REMEMBER your managment team thanks you and they will rape your comapany and move on, while you continue fly your new jet for CRAP rates.. You are the ultimate HYPOCRITE!

 

[av8tor4239]

Oh and dont give me any BS about paying your dues for 89 days because I paid my dues through a furlough and seveal years of BS... I can garuntee you that MY VOTE for anything less than TOP INDUSTRY PAY and WORK RULES is HELL NO.....

The funny thing is that it is not about me.. it is about the profession and keeping us from becoming AMTRACK conductors or Greayhound Bus drivers... You and everyone else that votes yes to this Crap have brough us all one step closer to the bottom, and one step closer to Amtrack and Grayhound....

 

[jetflyer]

I can garuntee you that MY VOTE for anything less than TOP INDUSTRY PAY and WORK RULES is HELL NO.....

WELL I CAN GUARANTEE you can't SPELL GARUNTEE

 

[Oakum_Boy]

av8tor4239,

Caveman seems to be a pretty intelligent and nice guy and can say what he wants.

AND HERE IS HOW I REALLY FEEL
BOTTOM LINE IS COMAIR PILOTS ARE STILL THE BEST PAID OF ANY REGIONAL AIRLINE!!!!

SO YOU CAN CHILL!!!

BECAUSE OF THIS LOA, YOU and every other REGIONAL AIRLINE PILOT GROUP are not negotiating in the future for CHQ+1%!!!!

You're still NEGOTIATING FOR COMAIR + 1%!!

If that's not good enough for ya, then NEGOTIATE FOR COMAIR + 5%!!
THAT WILL SHOW US YOU HAVE BALLS like the COMAIR PILOTS THAT STRUCK FOR 89 DAYS DEFINITELY HAVE.

It's amazing how Comair pilots are now the bad guys. RIDICULOUS!!

Comair pilots are doing what they think is best for themselves. GOD FORBID.

You and others may not like the result, but SINCE COMAIR PILOTS ARE STILL THE BEST PAID, YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO BITTTCH!

Kiddie Kaptain

Can you think of the 1700 some-odd ASA pilots who will have to give up that much more because you want to floss your new pimp E-170. Nice. Guys, you are paid to fly airplanes, not finance givebacks to make your CEO look good. Get f-in REAL.

 

[av8tor4239]

Jetflyer.. if all you have to respond to what i have written is a spelling critique, you have proven your self a joke..

And from your post you have supported the yes vote:

from jetflyer:
"AND HERE IS HOW I REALLY FEEL
BOTTOM LINE IS COMAIR PILOTS ARE STILL THE BEST PAID OF ANY REGIONAL AIRLINE!!!!

SO YOU CAN CHILL!!!

BECAUSE OF THIS LOA, YOU and every other REGIONAL AIRLINE PILOT GROUP are not negotiating in the future for CHQ+1%!!!!

You're still NEGOTIATING FOR COMAIR + 1%!!

If that's not good enough for ya, then NEGOTIATE FOR COMAIR + 5%!!
THAT WILL SHOW US YOU HAVE BALLS like the COMAIR PILOTS THAT STRUCK FOR 89 DAYS DEFINITELY HAVE."

Your support of DCI's plan to make your entire pilot group pay for the airplanes you will fly in the future baffles me.... Think of the big picture and those that will come after you are flying west...

PILOTS DONT BY AIRPLANES... IT IS NOT YOUR JOB

 

[jarhead]

You walked the the line PRE 9/11, totaly different market.. united pilots were making 400,000 dollars a year...NOW we are holding on for dear life

And I can "garintee you" that United pilots were not making $400,000 a year. Where do you dream this stuff up?

 

[jetflyer]

I guess I just don't feel like arguing anymore.

ESPECIALLY with uneducated people who blame their bad lives ON OTHERS.

NOW YOU'VE WRONGFULLY ADDED COMAIR PILOTS TO YOUR BAD LIFE BLAME LIST.

I just don't think COMAIR PILOTS belong on that list. They've done their share to help this industry. In 4 years, HOW MUCH has the industry improved above what Comair pilots made of it?? NONE!

Should Comair pilots suffer because others were afraid to GRAB THE TORCH AND RUN WITH IT??

MAYBE ASA pilots are not AFRAID to grab the torch and run, but you have your "GARUNTEED"<--(I like that word now) growth for the future.

I wish ASA pilots, and even you, the best in your negotiations. I apologize if your Comair+1% isn't going to be what it once was. There's nothing saying you can't get Comair+5%!!!

Good luck to you guys,

Jet

 

[BluDevAv8r]

If you work for Mesa, CHQ, XJET, AWAC, SkyWest or anybody else that's signed or ammended a contract in the last four years you have no right to tell CMR pilots what they ought to do.

Caveman,

Last 4 years or not, nobody (for any airline) has a right to tell any other airline's pilots what they ought to do. Each airline has a different situation and bargaining position.

Did any of you put it all on the line and try and get CMR plus 1%. Nobody walked. Nobody 'raised the bar'. Nobody got close. CHQ and XJET improved but they still didn't get it done. Now y'all are gonna sit there and scream at me and tell me that I have to uphold the profession. Unreal........

From this post, clearly you are not aware of how the bargaining environment has changed since CMR negotiated its contract prior to 9/11. The NMB's structure and political views as well as mandate for its operations changed significantly (and not in favor of organized labor). You were afforded an opportunity to exercise the ultimate piece of leverage. We at XJT were not able to utilize that leverage (and were not going to be able to for the foreseeable future).

Aside from hard pay rates and per diem, our new contract (as well as parts of our old one) is significantly better than your current agreement in several major areas such as sick leave accrual, retirement match, reserve rules, scope/job security language, trip trading, more days off, profit sharing, and especially our vacation system. We also received full retroactivity for 25 months worth of earnings at Comair pay rates, which equated to lump sum retro checks ranging from $13,000 to $25,000 for most of our pilots (not including the 401k match that the company made on those retro checks).

With that said, it isn't a competition and you won't hear anything from me or our MEC about "upholding the profession" or anything of the sort. You guys do what is best for your pilot group. The majority will speak on that issue. Time will tell as to its outcome. Good luck over there.

-Neal

 

[Bizjet]

But I think we can all agree that if the freeze passes and then down the road ASA signs a Comair minus (including the value of the freeze) contract and then says "yeah but had you not agreed to the freeze we would have topped not only your frozen contract, but the original one too!" will be pure BS.

So which is it?

DUH, You guys forget that your contract was negotiated pre 9/11. If you take these pay freezes you will be passed by ExpressJet in several categories. They did their contract in two years post 9/11 and didn't lose approximately $5.00 per hour over the life of contract due to lost income from an 89 day strike. This does not include the 7% profit sharing they have been receiving which puts them even further ahead of Comair. I wonder how many "Fred Votes" will come from Comair pilots who were not even at Comair for the strike. Greed is a very corrupting weakness especially when it is your fellow "striking pilots" money you are pilfering.

The ASA pilots have a right to be angry. Comair got weak and broke from the coalition that had been formed between the two airlines MEC's for many years. Comair's actions seem suspect to more than just ASA pilots. It appears that your desire for growth is more important than the bonds of "brotherhood". However, you can only lose your integrity one time. I am sure you can explain it away with the trite statement that "Comair pilots are tired of carrying all the load because no one else is raising the bar like the Comair Pilots did"! For those who just want movement at all cost and that attitude carries the vote--you will find very few who will admit voting for the concessions when that 4.5% raise is gone. And as time goes on and you realize that it will be more missed raises, soon no one will remember that "YES" vote. By the time you are trying to get this lost money back during your next negotiations your claim to be the industry leader will be long forgotten. Management will know that they can have their way with your group by just throwing a little money at you. Management will only laugh behind your backs when you engage in saber rattling.

Comair's actions would be less onerous if you just admitted that you are now bed mates with Freddy Buttrell. You must know that he will be demanding more freebies from the give back boys of Comair. Maybe you can get autographed pictures of Fred and place them on the yoke covers on both sides of the cockpit. And you thought it was lonely at the top.

 

[surplus1]

If nothing else, this TA is certainly teaching Comair pilots how many "friends" we have.

If the TA passes perhaps Duane Woerth will refuse to sign it because it is "harmful to the profession". Would that please you?

Those of you that are telling us how evil we are, when we have yet to decide, what would you recommend? Should we adopt the slogan "full pay to the last day?" Or would you prefer "Not one nickel, not one job?"

How many of you are prepared to fall on your swords to give our junior pilots preferential hiring at your airline if they should be furloughed in the future? Can we depend on you to protect them or should we do it ourselves?

If our parent company decides not to buy Comair any airplanes and offers them to you, will you turn them down in protest to help us "preserve the profession" or will you accept them and tell us you're sorry, you just couldn't do anything about it?

What exactly will you do for us if we hold the bar for you?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[doh]

I voted YES

Cavey, say it ain't so!

 

[doh]

av8tor4239,

I will be watching closely! I know you will surpass our contract by leaps and bounds! If you don't, I will rag you to death!!!

 

[jetflyer]

Quick question though...is there anything written in the contract on a salary freeze for management as well?

Wahoo,

Yes Management MUST stay frozen for as long as the Comair pilots' pay is frozen.

Management has extended the olive branch at Comair. It's a NEW management. It's almost like Comair has a management team now like Southwest or Jetblue, or we hope.

It's a less combative and more cooperative management that cares about it's employees and wants what's best for them and the FUTURE of the company.

Our MEC is impressed with the new management and thinks they are different and very impressive now. Our MEC thinks the LOA is in the Comair pilots best interest. There are a lot of provisions that PROTECT the Comair pilots in the LOA. The MEC endorses the LOA because it is best for the interests OF THE COMAIR PILOTS as a WHOLE.

I frankly was shocked they endorsed it. I thought they would only support the viewpoint of the most senior Comair pilot. They considered ALL OF THE COMAIR PILOTS with this LOA. They did a great job.

Before anyone criticizes me, read our LOA first. Sift through it and see that it's well written and in our best interests.

ASA has their GUARANTEED GROWTH, just like Comair had in their last negotiations in 2001.

You guys aren't looking at the possibility of BEING SHRUNK and HAVING YOUR ASSETS SOLD OFF, to continue the WHIPSAW GAME, that Delta loves to play. That is the fear and the possibility that Comair pilots and the Comair MEC had to graple with on this LOA.

A LOT of Comair pilots GAVE UP their PAY 4 YEARS ago for 89 DAYS for the good of the industry.

Should our JUNIOR PILOTS give up their PAY by BEING FURLOUGHED FOR 4 YEARS+ because Comair gets shrunk from a "NO VOTE" TO HELP THE INDUSTRY???

Many of you will come back and say tirelessly, "THOSE PLANES ARE COMING TO YOU EVEN IF YOU SAY NO". MANY will also say foolishly, "PILOTS DON'T BUY AIRPLANES, THEY FLY THEM." And I say, "You DO NOT KNOW for sure we will get those airplanes" and "DUH".

Are you guys that say that WILLING to pay the salaries of the possible Comair furloughs that occur from the possible transfer of planes caused by a NO VOTE?? I DON'T THINK SO.

A NO VOTE may help ASA and all of the other airlines in this profession, but it could put MANY COMAIR PILOTS ON THE STREET. WOULD THAT MAKE YOU GUYS HAPPY?

ANSWER THIS:
Would Comair voting NO on this LOA and then having their planes transfered to ASA and CHQ make you guys HAPPY?

Then YOU GUYS COULD SAY, "THOSE Comair pilots sure are SWELL HELPING THE INDUSTRY AGAIN!!! HOW NICE OF THOSE COMAIR PILOTS!!"

Consider that,

Jet

 

[Alchemy]

No criticism here if it passes. At least the wages had give (gave) you a helluva bargaining chip to use for growth. That's more than the rest of us can say. I just hope we won't be in the same boat in a couple of years since we have considerably less to bargain with......

 

[homerjdispatch]

To gt this back on topic....

How is the poll looking?

 

[~~~^~~~]

If the TA passes perhaps Duane Woerth will refuse to sign it because it is "harmful to the profession". Would that please you?

Yes - any sign of leadership from Herndon would be appreciated.

The Comair MEC has entered into an agreement out of its narrow self interest.

Getting Comair to commit to a number of airplanes is not a solution to dealing with the Delta MEC's "left over barganing." This is just whipsaw and you have let your lust for the E170 cloud your perceptions if you don't think Chautauqua and ASA will lap you on the race to the bottom.

This agreement is not granting legitimacy to Comair's current cost structure. Mr. Barnette said he thought the idea of going to the Comair pilots for concessions was crazy - he would not make that same statement now.

We don't know for sure what this market will do and how Delta will have to react. We do know that Delta's plans involved oil at $40 a barrell and that market reality is $49. That, my friend, makes more difference in the operational results than Comair's pay freeze.

All the Comair pilots have done is inform management that concessionary deals are possible at Connection - particularly if they buy jobs.

Cheers to all those wanting "their 1,000 hours PIC" to get out. This profession is going down the tubes because pilots, MEC's and ALPA National is ignoring the profession as every individual rewards their most selfish inclinations.

As a fellow RJDC supporter, which I thought you were, how can you support predatory barganing on your own property with your own management? There is a fault line in the moral high ground you occupy.

Respectfully,
~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair your Delta Concession carrier

He writes:

Management has extended the olive branch at Comair. It's a NEW management. It's almost like Comair has a management team now like Southwest or Jetblue, or we hope.

It's a less combative and more cooperative management that cares about it's employees and wants what's best for them and the FUTURE of the company.

Our MEC is impressed with the new management and thinks they are different and very impressive now. Our MEC thinks the LOA is in the Comair pilots best interest. There are a lot of provisions that PROTECT the Comair pilots in the LOA. The MEC endorses the LOA because it is best for the interests OF THE COMAIR PILOTS as a WHOLE.

Then he writes:

You guys aren't looking at the possibility of BEING SHRUNK and HAVING YOUR ASSETS SOLD OFF, to continue the WHIPSAW GAME, that Delta loves to play. That is the fear and the possibility that Comair pilots and the Comair MEC had to graple with on this LOA.

You babe in the woods. All management teams have a honeymoon. They have the answers, they have ideas. Just like us in the crew lounge - we all know how to run an airline.

Until we are faced with reality. Your precious new management team ( which is actually the same managers that ran the current show & denied your growth from Delta ) and their Delta friends whipsawed you and being relatively inexperienced in this industry - you drank the cool aid.

New airplanes require lead time. New fleet types require more lead time. Comair went ( what was it 18 months? ) without a new jet? boo frickin hoo. You will get 70 seat jets and at least 10 more 50 seat jets anyway. I even bet the fist 10 will arrive on your ramp the same time the GECAS jets show up on ASA's ramp.

ASA pilots said "pound sand" and got the airplanes. Comair would have gotten the airplanes as Delta needed them in their network. The CVG Enquirer quoted your management, writing that this was not an "economic deal." ALPA said they had not determined the cost. Well if it was not economic - then it was moral - Comair management had a point to make.

Perhaps they can move the Comair Academy to CVG and have a program to get 1,000 hours of part 121 PIC. How much would you be willing to pay for that?

But don't be smug in your concessionary jets. ASA is still in negotiations.

~~~^~~~

 

[Caveman]

doh,

I wish it weren't so, but it is. I'm just looking at what I percieve as the economic reality of the industry and our position in it. I'm not crazy about voting yes but I honestly believe it is the lessor of two evils. I respect the no voters position and I almost changed my vote yesterday morning. That's how tough a call this is for a lot of us.

The other thing that really sucks about this is as recently as a month a two ago I was proclaiming how CMR pilots would never trade concessions for growth. Now I find myself in the odious position of not only having to eat my own words but actually voting for concessions myself. Make no mistake a freeze is a concession. I still think it's the right thing to do though and I'm prepared to take the heat for changing my mind. Holding hard and fast to a conviction just because your pride won't allow you to be percieved as being wrong is immature and not very wise. The circumstances have changed and I've changed with them. I really, really hate the taste of crow though.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I no longer work for Comair and haven't read the language in your agreement. I did, however, hear through the grapevine that it includes job protection provisions including minimum fleet size.

Furlough protection language is a waste of paper, but any time you can get contractual language which includes an actual measuring stick -- then I believe you have to consider it. Minimum number of hulls, minimum captain positions, minimum block hours ALL have the effect of securing a certain number of jobs.

Caveman, I respect you and ANY pilot who is willing to sacrifice in order to protect the jobs of the more junior pilots. My respect doesn't buy much these days i'm afraid, but (shrug) it is what it is.

As a guy who'se been furloughed way too many times, I can not begin to tell you how important it is to me to see pilots working outside of the box to foster job-security.

Hopefully this wasn't about a shiny new jet. Hopefully this was about filling a gaping hole in the existing contract. While you might never have been able to negotiate "scope" with Comair management, you found a way around it. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe it won't work. Maybe it will. At least you tried. And in a post-09/11 world, TRYING to preserve jobs is commendable.

I know this is hard for you guys. I'm proud of you for listening to both sides and doing what you think is right to secure the long term future of Comair and the jobs of your fellow pilots.

 

[uncle]

wacopilot,

you hit the nail on the head. we (comair pilots) are not the problem, it's the rest of the pilot groups who have taken horrible concessions for a little growth. Don't blame us, look in the mirror and bitch out the little cry baby staring back at you.

 

[uncle]

wacopilot,

you hit the nail on the head. we (comair pilots) are not the problem, it's the rest of the pilot groups who have taken horrible concessions for a little growth. Don't blame us, look in the mirror and bitch out the little cry baby staring back at you.

 

[Otto]

Poll Results as of Thursday

To gt this back on topic....

How is the poll looking?

As of this morning (2/24) the exit poll is showing 59% IN FAVOR and 41% AGAINST with 177 pilots reporting or roughlly 10% of the pilot group. The interesting thing is that three days ago it was 68% FOR and 32% AGAINST so it appears the No's are are gaining ground and the gap is narrowing. My theory is that some of the No's waited to see the road show presentation before making up their mind and after seeing it, were not satisfied.

There were a few other questions in the poll and one was "do you believe Comair will get the airplanes even if we say NO"? Well 75% answered the question with a "NO" so there is your primary motivation for how people are voting. With a number of aircraft reaching the end of their service lives many feel the next step if we say no is concessions for the status quo meaning take a pay cut or retired aircraft will not be replaced, therefore we shrink. Nobody wants to go down that road. We're happy to hold the bar above everybody else but nobody wants to see our guys furloughed so others may prosper. Of course we want to stay strong with ASA and with that goal, is it not better to ensure these aircraft go to the WO's? If we said no to help our brothers at ASA and the planes came there instead of Comair, would the pilots of ASA refuse to fly them????

I'm not trying to divide the ASA/Comair pilots as I believe unity is of the upmost importance. I don't think this will do as much damage to the ASA negotiations as they fear because unlike the RFP last year, this leaves our work rules intact and simply freezes pay. We pilots focus too much on pay but overall it's not too different from regional to regional...the real value of our contract is the work rules and they remain unchaged even if this proposal passes.

Hey, one more thing about this poll. Remember it's an exit poll...the exit polls for the Presidential election showed Kerry as the winner.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Oh Yeah...

buying Airplanes Is Not Your Freaking Job.....

F.Y.I. - We are not buying airplanes (how many RJ's does 14-16 million buy), we are getting our costs in line with everyone who has refused to hold the line or has taken concessions over the last 3 years. If we want to continue growing, we have no choice. That's the deal, now where is my coffee...

P.S. The answer to my question is about 3/4 of 1

 

[skyslug]

I agree with that assessment...I think that sums it up.