Colgan Air crew experience.

[skiandsurf]

Ironic...

...just a wierd coincident, but on this months Airline Pilot magazine, the cover picture is a Colgan D8-400 with 4 pilots (non of which were onboard).

 

[M-crit]

Don't know if this is severe or not- but I reported moderate to severe icing once climbing through 14,000. 1/4" on the wipers and most of the side window iced up...even with heat the side window kept accumulating ice until it was almost covered. Although I have seen 1/4" (or more) ice on my wipers before, I've never seen the side windows ice over like that.

 

[satpak77]

another thing is that the "flying since age 16" guy is getting fewer and fewer. Back "in the day" (mid 90's) the average regional/commuter FO came on board with 3000 TT, 500 to 1000 of which was flying Barons or Navajos at night single pilot 135 freight. You learn some lessons doing that. The same guy usually had some CFI time and maybe a little aerobatic time, formal training or not (!).

The pipeline of "zero to RJ cockpit" via $50,000 training program, in which banks past standard rate were never practiced and "use the automation" is the lesson of the day. I see to many advertisements with testimonials of "why waste my time flying XXXX, when I can go straight to the airlines (regionals)?"

I think that attitude is going to come back and haunt this industry.

 

[skiandsurf]

another thing is that the "flying since age 16" guy is getting fewer and fewer. Back "in the day" (mid 90's) the average regional/commuter FO came on board with 3000 TT, 500 to 1000 of which was flying Barons or Navajos at night single pilot 135 freight. You learn some lessons doing that. The same guy usually had some CFI time and maybe a little aerobatic time, formal training or not (!).

The pipeline of "zero to RJ cockpit" via $50,000 training program, in which banks past standard rate were never practiced and "use the automation" is the lesson of the day. I see to many advertisements with testimonials of "why waste my time flying XXXX, when I can go straight to the airlines (regionals)?"

I think that attitude is going to come back and haunt this industry.

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

 

[Lynxman]

To the last two posters you are so spot on thank you. Having a little internet fight with another memeber that seems to think 0-RJ right seat is ok.

 

[CX880]

To the last two posters you are so spot on thank you. Having a little internet fight with another memeber that seems to think 0-RJ right seat is ok.

It's not OK. Doesn't mean they're all bad pilots like you're implying with your know-it-all extensive cessna 172 experience.

 

[CX880]

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

Skiandsurf you are amazing. They should make you chief NTSB Aviation inspector. You have already diagnosed the cause of the accident as pilot error from your own computer or couch. It hasn't even been a week yet. WOW. And by the way you question above was answered in the second post of this thread, wise one.... And OCT till now is certainly worth a lot more than 100 hours in type.

 

[belchfire]

One of the most qualified people I ever had as my FO was very low on stick time. He had years of experience as a FE and worked very hard to transfer what he knew about 121 operations and what he knew about systems into actually flying the airplane as a pilot...he is an outstanding airman and has become an outstanding pilot.

In fact I would be comfortable moving any kind of airplane anywhere in the world with him-regardless if we were rated in type or not...we might need a few days in the books to move an old Douglas or a POS Airbus, but we could do it.

Your point is???

 

[MIKE767]

The auto pilot automatically turns off when the stick shaker goes off.

 

[bluefin]

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

There is "flying by the book", then there is "flying by experience". When the book goes out the window and all there is left is experience, or lack there of then trouble sets in.(not pointing directly at anyone) Where are numbers for an aircraft derived? From test pilots in a controlled environment. With 10000+ hrs and 6 type ratings I have been through a lot. I know "experience" has saved my bacon once or twice, ie wx radar failing right after T.O. in storms. I have been at companies when we lost an aircraft and crew. The thing that is going to come out of this is new info that will make the rest of us better pilots. It is a time to learn and not repeat. God speed to all, blue skies, flying the "Heavy" in the sky...

 

[CopilotDoug]

another thing is that the "flying since age 16" guy is getting fewer and fewer. Back "in the day" (mid 90's) the average regional/commuter FO came on board with 3000 TT, 500 to 1000 of which was flying Barons or Navajos at night single pilot 135 freight. You learn some lessons doing that. The same guy usually had some CFI time and maybe a little aerobatic time, formal training or not (!).

The pipeline of "zero to RJ cockpit" via $50,000 training program, in which banks past standard rate were never practiced and "use the automation" is the lesson of the day. I see to many advertisements with testimonials of "why waste my time flying XXXX, when I can go straight to the airlines (regionals)?"

I think that attitude is going to come back and haunt this industry.

I see your point, and agree for the most part. However, I think there are valid reasons to pass up on that single-pilot night cargo job, namely the condition of the equipment at some operators. Some are fine...some...not so fine.

 

[WSurf]

One of the most qualified people I ever had as my FO was very low on stick time. He had years of experience as a FE and worked very hard to transfer what he knew about 121 operations and what he knew about systems into actually flying the airplane as a pilot...he is an outstanding airman and has become an outstanding pilot.

In fact I would be comfortable moving any kind of airplane anywhere in the world with him-regardless if we were rated in type or not...we might need a few days in the books to move an old Douglas or a POS Airbus, but we could do it.

Your point is???

Would a more experience crew maybe questioned each other more? I think yes. I see that more experience crews tend to speak up when they might think or notice something isn't right. I have flown with some new FO's that are so low time they would probably let the Captain fly them into the ground without saying a word.
Anyone remember the Mesa flight into ROA when the FO basically let the Captain crash her into the runway without saying a word. I am sure a more experienced FO wouldnt have allowed her to even get close to the stickshaker without speaking up.

Remember it was only 2 years ago that many regionals were hiring people with less then 300hrs.

Its not the pilots fault, its the market. All of us would have taken a job if we could've at 300hrs. But when I was coming up if you didn't have 1500hrs they wouldn't even look at you.

 

[CALRepublic]

I also read that the autopilot was on the whole time. You would think it would have disengaged itself. Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

Watching the news this morning (local channel) they're saying "according to the NTSB the AP was on, the pilot did not follow company SOPs"...I think the media and NTSB are going to blame this poor guy....that's all his family needs right now

 

[WSurf]

Watching the news this morning (local channel) they're saying "according to the NTSB the AP was on, the pilot did not follow company SOPs"...I think the media and NTSB are going to blame this poor guy....that's all his family needs right now

How was he not following Company SOP's? There wasn't any report of Severe Icing in the area.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Watching the news this morning (local channel) they're saying "according to the NTSB the AP was on, the pilot did not follow company SOPs"...I think the media and NTSB are going to blame this poor guy....that's all his family needs right now

I saw the news this mornng and the NTSB briefer said that Colgan the pilots had the AP as was the standard practice. The only policy they had about the AP was not to use it in Severe Icing, which had not been reported (save me the argument about it not having to be reported, we don't know exactly what kind they were experiencing and saying they were in severe in just speculation).

The NTSB expanded that it recommended to the FAA no AP use in icing conditions but the FAA decided not to implement it. The crew has not yet been shown to be violating procedure.

 

[Mookie]

Experience in terms of total time doesn't mean anything. I've flown with 20 year captains that can't land a 737 within 50' of the centerline, and I've flown with 200 hrs copilots who were just blessed with ability.

I just had the great pleasure of flying with a guy who had just come off the MD-80 at Alaska. Had been on it for 18 years and hadnt been north of seattle (except for OE) at all. He had 3 landings in the last two months, and none up in SE alaska. You got it, first trip together we get ANC SIT, JNU, SEA together. Want to know how this guy got my utmost respect? Instead of puffing his chest out and telling me how "experienced" he was with his 15k hrs, he said "dude...I'd like to say I'm comfortable up here, but I"m not. I'm going to need your help. Cool?" and he meant it. Toughest day of weather I've ever flown in, but instead of dividing along lines of our TT experience, he had the wherewithall to, god forbid, trust someone who had more "experience" in a different type of flying.

I guess my point is, don't have a ********************ing ego in a cockpit. it WILL bite you in the ass someday.

Mookie

 

[jmreii]

There is "flying by the book", then there is "flying by experience". When the book goes out the window and all there is left is experience, or lack there of then trouble sets in.(not pointing directly at anyone) Where are numbers for an aircraft derived? From test pilots in a controlled environment. With 10000+ hrs and 6 type ratings I have been through a lot. I know "experience" has saved my bacon once or twice, ie wx radar failing right after T.O. in storms. I have been at companies when we lost an aircraft and crew. The thing that is going to come out of this is new info that will make the rest of us better pilots. It is a time to learn and not repeat. God speed to all, blue skies, flying the "Heavy" in the sky...

Bluefin is right, now sing it with me, you cannot beat the experience!

 

[OurMoney1]

They had every right to be in those seats. They went through the training that is designed to weed the weak and award the capable.

My nephew got hired by American Eagle this past summer with 600 TT, they put him in the right seat of the companies 70 seater...Do the math, it is what it is.

Colgan has a competitive training program, they wouldn't have put two people in a modern turboprop that were a risk to the operation.

 

[WSurf]

Experience in terms of total time doesn't mean anything. I've flown with 20 year captains that can't land a 737 within 50' of the centerline, and I've flown with 200 hrs copilots who were just blessed with ability.

I just had the great pleasure of flying with a guy who had just come off the MD-80 at Alaska. Had been on it for 18 years and hadnt been north of seattle (except for OE) at all. He had 3 landings in the last two months, and none up in SE alaska. You got it, first trip together we get ANC SIT, JNU, SEA together. Want to know how this guy got my utmost respect? Instead of puffing his chest out and telling me how "experienced" he was with his 15k hrs, he said "dude...I'd like to say I'm comfortable up here, but I"m not. I'm going to need your help. Cool?" and he meant it. Toughest day of weather I've ever flown in, but instead of dividing along lines of our TT experience, he had the wherewithall to, god forbid, trust someone who had more "experience" in a different type of flying.

I guess my point is, don't have a ********************ing ego in a cockpit. it WILL bite you in the ass someday.

Mookie

Very true Mookie. Some of my best trips with new 300hr FO's are the ones that get in the plane and look at me and say, "Listen, I have 300hrs of Total Time and if you can help me in anyway it would be most apprieciated." These guy/gals are the ones really wanted to learn and become better.

The ones that will kill you are the Chuck Yeager wannbe's that have 300hrs. The one's that huff and puff when you tell them what there doing is wrong.

 

[WSurf]

They had every right to be in those seats. They went through the training that is designed to weed the weak and award the capable.

Anyone can be trained to pass a checkride. Training can sometimes weed out the weak? Sure, but there are many that fall threw the cracks.

Training and Line flying are different, and if you don't think so you're fooling yourself.

 

[filejw]

They had every right to be in those seats. They went through the training that is designed to weed the weak and award the capable.

My nephew got hired by American Eagle this past summer with 600 TT, they put him in the right seat of the companies 70 seater...Do the math, it is what it is.

Colgan has a competitive training program, they wouldn't have put two people in a modern turboprop that were a risk to the operation.

You are missing original posters meaning. Rigorous training programs are great but don't replace experience. In this case how many winter have these guys flown thru, how much time in a TP of any kind.

 

[www.]

How was he not following Company SOP's? There wasn't any report of Severe Icing in the area.

Ok. What would you do if your a/c encountered severe icing? Usually, MPE, it hits you hard enough to let you know something is not right.

 

[Lynxman]

Being a new pilot with 300 TT and eager to learn is great. Nobody want's a cocky 300 hr new pilot, but the fact is experience will definitely win out over a new pilot eager to learn.

 

[skiandsurf]

Here is a link the the ACA J41 at CMH.

Similarities...

Both crashed on approach in icing conditions.
Both had captains with low time in type.
Both had the AP on.

This ACA crew got a stall warning and ...

CA said, "what did you do".
FO said, "I didnt do nothing".

No recovery or movement of throttles.

Then another stall warning and the CA only increased the throttles up to half power....not max power and recover.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001206X00616&key=1

 

[satpak77]

lynxman who is that in your avatar

 

[Bruno82]

Anyone can be trained to pass a checkride. Training can sometimes weed out the weak? Sure, but there are many that fall threw the cracks.

Training and Line flying are different, and if you don't think so you're fooling yourself.

I'm pretty sure they have to pass IOE at Colgan.

 

[Bruno82]

They will find a reason to pin it on the crew no matter what.

 

[Lynxman]

lynxman who is that in your avatar

Friend why? Shes not famous like SIUC's avatar girl of the day lol.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

It'll be interesting to see what will all come out of this. After three winters freight dogging in piston twins and turboprops you learn a lot, there's something to be said of experience in these matters.

At the same time though, pinning the blame on the crew as simply a lack of experience to me is an empty shell as well. There's been plenty of greater accidents caused by much more experienced crews, making more rudimentary mistakes.

Again, our culture fails us by trying to asses blame, instead of addressing systemic deficiencies.

 

[satpak77]

Friend why? Shes not famous like SIUC's avatar girl of the day lol.

cute friend