Colgan Air crew experience.

[Flywrite]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

 

[Erlanger]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

It's going to come down to what the crew was saying to each other and what they meant when they used the word "significant".

 

[WSurf]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

I agree, however I think the CVR is gonna be the rope to hang this crew. They talked about all the ice on the window and wings.

 

[WSurf]

I agree, however I think the CVR is gonna be the rope to hang this crew. They talked about all the ice on the window and wings.

I apologize for the wording with the rope comment. It wasn't in anyway meant as disrespect towards the crew.

 

[atrdriver]

Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

It could not have, at least as long as the stick shaker fired, which the NTSB has already said it did. It's a certification thing that the A/P disconnects when the shaker activates.

 

[contrail67]

and in this case, total time-in-type will be an issue.

and it looks like according to his type rating date...this was his first winter in the Q400 as PIC.

 

[contrail67]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

When are you guys going to understand that light to moderate icing for one airplane (a jet with hot surfaces and a much cleaner design) can be severe for another (a turboprop with boots and with a thicker wing design and more surfaces for ice to collect on).

I have much respect for all that fly turboprops, I use to fly them too. I was always taught though that if I heard a Soutwest 737 call moderate ice that it was a much bigger problem for me and I could indeed be in "severe" ice in my Caravan or King Air.

 

[cjdriver]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in freezing rain, is it the same at the regionals?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in severe icing, is it the same at the regionals?

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

I fly in icing conditions for my winter job, and SLD is some dangerous stuff. That icing can come on so hard and fast, and its forms nasty nasty rough gnarly surfaces that cause a tremendous amount of drag.

Once last year, and twice this year, had the pucker factor go way up there, probably left a permanent dimple in the seat from SLD icing. The job I do requires icing conditions of supercooled water, so I see more icing that most people do, and often I fly in it as long as possible. But those super large drops can just scare the bejeezus out of you.

 

[Erlanger]

I also read that the autopilot was on the whole time. You would think it would have disengaged itself. Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

Don't believe they ever said the autopilot was on till impact. What was said was the autopilot was on "until just before the plane went down". Either the autopilot kicked off on it's own or the crew took control. The autopilot couldn't of possibly been on till impact even if the crew was incapacitated. I'm sure atleast the Captain did take control and did everything he could to save that plane.

 

[Squanto]

Things that give me the Creeps

SkiandSurf will be proved right on this one...AP on during icing.

Some things always give me the creeps:

--A "late in life" pilot in the left seat...cute, young F.O. in the right seat. (I've seen her pic)...Payne Stewart crash, by the way

--Two crew members flying together without a whole hell of a lot of real world flying experience.

--Any pilot that always talks about how much they like to fly, fly, fly and the minute it's their leg....its gear, flaps, and AP passing 400'

--Heavy icing with only boots

--Fatigue

--Pushy A$$ dispatchers, (think their are any pushy A$$ dispatchers in Newark, NJ?)

--Any pilot that doesn't have the balls to tell ATC to give them a better Alt, vector or go somewhere else in heavy icing.

Such an avoidable situation....sad..

-S

 

[DoinTime]

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

Most people don't even know how to define "severe" in any context let alone icing conditions.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Hell most guys I've flown with (and I assume most of them trained in FL) don't know how to report icing properly at all. They tell ATC that we have light icing when there's 1/8"-1/4" of ice on the wiper. The problem is that icing accumulated there in just A FEW MINUTES. That is moderate, at least!

Everybody needs to re-read the definition of icing in the AIM. Trace, light, moderate and severe are all based on YOUR SPECIFIC AIRPLANE'S ability to get rid of the ice. According to the AIM, if you hit ANY icing in your C172, it is considered severe! Ok, well I guess you can get trace icing too.