Colgan Air crew experience.

[contrail67]

and in this case, total time-in-type will be an issue.

and it looks like according to his type rating date...this was his first winter in the Q400 as PIC.

 

[contrail67]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

When are you guys going to understand that light to moderate icing for one airplane (a jet with hot surfaces and a much cleaner design) can be severe for another (a turboprop with boots and with a thicker wing design and more surfaces for ice to collect on).

I have much respect for all that fly turboprops, I use to fly them too. I was always taught though that if I heard a Soutwest 737 call moderate ice that it was a much bigger problem for me and I could indeed be in "severe" ice in my Caravan or King Air.

 

[cjdriver]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in freezing rain, is it the same at the regionals?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in severe icing, is it the same at the regionals?

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

I fly in icing conditions for my winter job, and SLD is some dangerous stuff. That icing can come on so hard and fast, and its forms nasty nasty rough gnarly surfaces that cause a tremendous amount of drag.

Once last year, and twice this year, had the pucker factor go way up there, probably left a permanent dimple in the seat from SLD icing. The job I do requires icing conditions of supercooled water, so I see more icing that most people do, and often I fly in it as long as possible. But those super large drops can just scare the bejeezus out of you.

 

[Erlanger]

I also read that the autopilot was on the whole time. You would think it would have disengaged itself. Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

Don't believe they ever said the autopilot was on till impact. What was said was the autopilot was on "until just before the plane went down". Either the autopilot kicked off on it's own or the crew took control. The autopilot couldn't of possibly been on till impact even if the crew was incapacitated. I'm sure atleast the Captain did take control and did everything he could to save that plane.

 

[Squanto]

Things that give me the Creeps

SkiandSurf will be proved right on this one...AP on during icing.

Some things always give me the creeps:

--A "late in life" pilot in the left seat...cute, young F.O. in the right seat. (I've seen her pic)...Payne Stewart crash, by the way

--Two crew members flying together without a whole hell of a lot of real world flying experience.

--Any pilot that always talks about how much they like to fly, fly, fly and the minute it's their leg....its gear, flaps, and AP passing 400'

--Heavy icing with only boots

--Fatigue

--Pushy A$$ dispatchers, (think their are any pushy A$$ dispatchers in Newark, NJ?)

--Any pilot that doesn't have the balls to tell ATC to give them a better Alt, vector or go somewhere else in heavy icing.

Such an avoidable situation....sad..

-S

 

[DoinTime]

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

Most people don't even know how to define "severe" in any context let alone icing conditions.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Hell most guys I've flown with (and I assume most of them trained in FL) don't know how to report icing properly at all. They tell ATC that we have light icing when there's 1/8"-1/4" of ice on the wiper. The problem is that icing accumulated there in just A FEW MINUTES. That is moderate, at least!

Everybody needs to re-read the definition of icing in the AIM. Trace, light, moderate and severe are all based on YOUR SPECIFIC AIRPLANE'S ability to get rid of the ice. According to the AIM, if you hit ANY icing in your C172, it is considered severe! Ok, well I guess you can get trace icing too.

 

[skiandsurf]

Ironic...

...just a wierd coincident, but on this months Airline Pilot magazine, the cover picture is a Colgan D8-400 with 4 pilots (non of which were onboard).

 

[M-crit]

Don't know if this is severe or not- but I reported moderate to severe icing once climbing through 14,000. 1/4" on the wipers and most of the side window iced up...even with heat the side window kept accumulating ice until it was almost covered. Although I have seen 1/4" (or more) ice on my wipers before, I've never seen the side windows ice over like that.

 

[satpak77]

another thing is that the "flying since age 16" guy is getting fewer and fewer. Back "in the day" (mid 90's) the average regional/commuter FO came on board with 3000 TT, 500 to 1000 of which was flying Barons or Navajos at night single pilot 135 freight. You learn some lessons doing that. The same guy usually had some CFI time and maybe a little aerobatic time, formal training or not (!).

The pipeline of "zero to RJ cockpit" via $50,000 training program, in which banks past standard rate were never practiced and "use the automation" is the lesson of the day. I see to many advertisements with testimonials of "why waste my time flying XXXX, when I can go straight to the airlines (regionals)?"

I think that attitude is going to come back and haunt this industry.

 

[skiandsurf]

another thing is that the "flying since age 16" guy is getting fewer and fewer. Back "in the day" (mid 90's) the average regional/commuter FO came on board with 3000 TT, 500 to 1000 of which was flying Barons or Navajos at night single pilot 135 freight. You learn some lessons doing that. The same guy usually had some CFI time and maybe a little aerobatic time, formal training or not (!).

The pipeline of "zero to RJ cockpit" via $50,000 training program, in which banks past standard rate were never practiced and "use the automation" is the lesson of the day. I see to many advertisements with testimonials of "why waste my time flying XXXX, when I can go straight to the airlines (regionals)?"

I think that attitude is going to come back and haunt this industry.

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

 

[Lynxman]

To the last two posters you are so spot on thank you. Having a little internet fight with another memeber that seems to think 0-RJ right seat is ok.

 

[CX880]

To the last two posters you are so spot on thank you. Having a little internet fight with another memeber that seems to think 0-RJ right seat is ok.

It's not OK. Doesn't mean they're all bad pilots like you're implying with your know-it-all extensive cessna 172 experience.

 

[CX880]

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

Skiandsurf you are amazing. They should make you chief NTSB Aviation inspector. You have already diagnosed the cause of the accident as pilot error from your own computer or couch. It hasn't even been a week yet. WOW. And by the way you question above was answered in the second post of this thread, wise one.... And OCT till now is certainly worth a lot more than 100 hours in type.

 

[belchfire]

One of the most qualified people I ever had as my FO was very low on stick time. He had years of experience as a FE and worked very hard to transfer what he knew about 121 operations and what he knew about systems into actually flying the airplane as a pilot...he is an outstanding airman and has become an outstanding pilot.

In fact I would be comfortable moving any kind of airplane anywhere in the world with him-regardless if we were rated in type or not...we might need a few days in the books to move an old Douglas or a POS Airbus, but we could do it.

Your point is???

 

[MIKE767]

The auto pilot automatically turns off when the stick shaker goes off.

 

[bluefin]

This is why I started this thread, to find out what kind of background and times these pilots had. Seems like someone out here has to know some info, but nobody is speaking up.

But someone said the captain got his type in mid Oct. Would be guessing that he has <100 hrs in type.

There is "flying by the book", then there is "flying by experience". When the book goes out the window and all there is left is experience, or lack there of then trouble sets in.(not pointing directly at anyone) Where are numbers for an aircraft derived? From test pilots in a controlled environment. With 10000+ hrs and 6 type ratings I have been through a lot. I know "experience" has saved my bacon once or twice, ie wx radar failing right after T.O. in storms. I have been at companies when we lost an aircraft and crew. The thing that is going to come out of this is new info that will make the rest of us better pilots. It is a time to learn and not repeat. God speed to all, blue skies, flying the "Heavy" in the sky...