Colgan Air crew experience.

[skiandsurf]

I was reading though other threads and trying to find the crews experience. The times that are out are obviously wrong. I was wondering if anyone here can comment on the crews experience and flight time (NO BASHING, just the facts).

I ask this because in the threads, there is reference to the ACA J41 crash at CMH in Jan 1994. I knew that crew (heck it was my flight, that I called in sick for). The ACA crew....Capt was a first time PIC on a new plane. He had been with the company for a couple of yrs flying the J32 as an FO, and only had about 50 hrs in the J41 as PIC. The FO was a new hire...I think it was his first trip out of IOE (green on green). Trying to think of the mins back then to get hired was probably 2000TT.

Do you guys have any info like this on the Colgan crew.

 

[CALRepublic]

CA Marvin Renslow, with Colgan since Sept. 2005 (3379 hrs ) **Pilot Flying**

FO Rebecca Shaw, with Colgan since Jan. 2008 (2,244 hrs) **Pilot Monitoring**

FA Matilda Quintero, with Colgan since May 2008

FA Donna Prisco, with Colgan since May 2008

CA Joseph Zuffoletto, with Colgan since Sept. 2005 (deadhead


Not sure how many hours they each had in the mighty Dash 8-400, couldn't find that info.....I'm still waiting for some Colgan guys to chime in and give us some insight. I'm tired of all the guessing going on.

 

[www.]

CA Marvin Renslow, with Colgan since Sept. 2005 (3379 hrs ) **Pilot Flying**

FO Rebecca Shaw, with Colgan since Jan. 2008 (2,244 hrs) **Pilot Monitoring**

FA Matilda Quintero, with Colgan since May 2008

FA Donna Prisco, with Colgan since May 2008

CA Joseph Zuffoletto, with Colgan since Sept. 2005 (deadhead


Not sure how many hours they each had in the mighty Dash 8-400, couldn't find that info.....I'm still waiting for some Colgan guys to chime in and give us some insight. I'm tired of all the guessing going on.

From the FAA web site it looks like that the Captain was typed on 11/18/2008 and the FO 03/16/2008. The FO lived in WA so she may have flown the Dash at Horizon.

 

[Volasl]

Off the topic, Im wondering how long the duty day of the crew was with the delay out of EWR. I hope the public will realize how many hours we work. Fatigue is almost always an issue.

 

[quinnlake]

Wondering weither crew experience or crew fatigue played a part in the accident assumes a bias that the crew either did something wrong, or could have done something better. This has not been proven. Until the NTSB report comes out, we cannot guess that somehow the crew was at fault, and a more experienced or better rested crew would have reacted differently.

 

[CALRepublic]

From the FAA web site it looks like that the Captain was typed on 11/18/2008 and the FO 03/16/2008. The FO lived in WA so she may have flown the Dash at Horizon.

The Dash 8 is a fairly easy plane to fly, I flew the Das8-100, have about 2700 hrs in the thing....with regards to this airplane, I think its more relevant the crew's experience with winter conditions, not the airplane..

 

[Papa Woody]

Fatigue is almost always an issue.

and in this case, total time-in-type will be an issue.

 

[79%N1]

NTSB now saying they wondering why the autopilot was flying if they knew they were in a severe icing situation.

 

[A300FE]

Off the topic, Im wondering how long the duty day of the crew was with the delay out of EWR. I hope the public will realize how many hours we work. Fatigue is almost always an issue.

I second this opinion. Fatigue or "I want to get there and go to the hotel after a long day" could cause even an experienced crew to screw up. I have seen this before in very experienced guys. The captain and FO might have flown in icing conditions before and thought they were not accumulating a lot of ice to divert. More than knowing the flight time the crew had (and the public speculate with Capt. Sully’s experience), I would like to know how many legs this crew flew that day, at what time they started the day, how much rest they’ve got from the day before, how much time they had between flights to grab something to eat.

What will it take for the FAA to change the rest time to a necessary 8 hrs. “in bed”, or how many more lives?

 

[satpak77]

(fatigue) it appears they left 3 hours late, but who knows....

 

[zasca]

In the original thread, someone said they were on duty since 13:00 or so. Super late leg yes. But apparently not that long of a day. Course, dealing with those insanely long ground sits are a trial in themselves.

 

[SuperFLUF]

In the original thread, someone said they were on duty since 13:00 or so. Super late leg yes. But apparently not that long of a day. Course, dealing with those insanely long ground sits are a trial in themselves.

Of course, there can be more to it than that. What sort of duty days did they have leading up to that day? What time did they get in the night before.....
Fatigue is cumulative.

 

[skiandsurf]

NTSB now saying they wondering why the autopilot was flying if they knew they were in a severe icing situation.

Its going to come down to Pilot-Error, due to them flying with the AP on in icing conditions....FOM says No AP in icing conditions.

Factors will include icing conditions and crew experience.

Fatigue will not be a factor.

 

[WSurf]

I also read that the autopilot was on the whole time. You would think it would have disengaged itself. Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

 

[Erlanger]

Its going to come down to Pilot-Error, due to them flying with the AP on in icing conditions....FOM says No AP in icing conditions.
Factors will include icing conditions and crew experience.

Fatigue will not be a factor.

The NTSB says Colgan policy is "no AP" on in severe icing. Why would Colgan override the FOM? Has that "No AP" in the FOM always been there or was it amended at a later time?

 

[Flywrite]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

 

[Erlanger]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

It's going to come down to what the crew was saying to each other and what they meant when they used the word "significant".

 

[WSurf]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

I agree, however I think the CVR is gonna be the rope to hang this crew. They talked about all the ice on the window and wings.

 

[WSurf]

I agree, however I think the CVR is gonna be the rope to hang this crew. They talked about all the ice on the window and wings.

I apologize for the wording with the rope comment. It wasn't in anyway meant as disrespect towards the crew.

 

[atrdriver]

Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

It could not have, at least as long as the stick shaker fired, which the NTSB has already said it did. It's a certification thing that the A/P disconnects when the shaker activates.

 

[contrail67]

and in this case, total time-in-type will be an issue.

and it looks like according to his type rating date...this was his first winter in the Q400 as PIC.

 

[contrail67]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Where did the 'severe icing' thing come from? Listening to the ATC tapes nobody on there mentions 'severe' icing. The ice-related comments, even when the controller askes about ice seem more consistent with light, maybe moderate icing, but nothing anywhere close to severe.

When are you guys going to understand that light to moderate icing for one airplane (a jet with hot surfaces and a much cleaner design) can be severe for another (a turboprop with boots and with a thicker wing design and more surfaces for ice to collect on).

I have much respect for all that fly turboprops, I use to fly them too. I was always taught though that if I heard a Soutwest 737 call moderate ice that it was a much bigger problem for me and I could indeed be in "severe" ice in my Caravan or King Air.

 

[cjdriver]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in freezing rain, is it the same at the regionals?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Wasn't there a METAR from that evening indicating freezing rain? If so, that constitutes severe icing. The companies I've flown for prohibited flight in severe icing, is it the same at the regionals?

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes, and that leaves the possibility open for SLD or Supercooled Large Droplets. These always constitute a concern for severe ice and there are no airplanes that are designed to remain in SLD conditions. If anyone hasn't seen the NASA video or CD-ROM on SLD you really need to. It reminds you that there are some conditions that a 777 cannot even handle.

I fly in icing conditions for my winter job, and SLD is some dangerous stuff. That icing can come on so hard and fast, and its forms nasty nasty rough gnarly surfaces that cause a tremendous amount of drag.

Once last year, and twice this year, had the pucker factor go way up there, probably left a permanent dimple in the seat from SLD icing. The job I do requires icing conditions of supercooled water, so I see more icing that most people do, and often I fly in it as long as possible. But those super large drops can just scare the bejeezus out of you.

 

[Erlanger]

I also read that the autopilot was on the whole time. You would think it would have disengaged itself. Hmmm, don't know how the autopilot would have stayed on all the way till impact?

Don't believe they ever said the autopilot was on till impact. What was said was the autopilot was on "until just before the plane went down". Either the autopilot kicked off on it's own or the crew took control. The autopilot couldn't of possibly been on till impact even if the crew was incapacitated. I'm sure atleast the Captain did take control and did everything he could to save that plane.

 

[Squanto]

Things that give me the Creeps

SkiandSurf will be proved right on this one...AP on during icing.

Some things always give me the creeps:

--A "late in life" pilot in the left seat...cute, young F.O. in the right seat. (I've seen her pic)...Payne Stewart crash, by the way

--Two crew members flying together without a whole hell of a lot of real world flying experience.

--Any pilot that always talks about how much they like to fly, fly, fly and the minute it's their leg....its gear, flaps, and AP passing 400'

--Heavy icing with only boots

--Fatigue

--Pushy A$$ dispatchers, (think their are any pushy A$$ dispatchers in Newark, NJ?)

--Any pilot that doesn't have the balls to tell ATC to give them a better Alt, vector or go somewhere else in heavy icing.

Such an avoidable situation....sad..

-S

 

[DoinTime]

There are some folks that are afraid to use the "severe" word. If it is severe ice....SAY IT IS! You are not doing anyone favors by saying moderate or heavy moderate....have heard that one....if it is severe.

Most people don't even know how to define "severe" in any context let alone icing conditions.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Hell most guys I've flown with (and I assume most of them trained in FL) don't know how to report icing properly at all. They tell ATC that we have light icing when there's 1/8"-1/4" of ice on the wiper. The problem is that icing accumulated there in just A FEW MINUTES. That is moderate, at least!

Everybody needs to re-read the definition of icing in the AIM. Trace, light, moderate and severe are all based on YOUR SPECIFIC AIRPLANE'S ability to get rid of the ice. According to the AIM, if you hit ANY icing in your C172, it is considered severe! Ok, well I guess you can get trace icing too.