Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[twighead]

I'd watch it before my next flight then.....

Don't worry I already did earlier. That's how I knew I had never seen it before.

 

[poydras]

Godspeed to you all

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

I've had two days worth of discussions, and a few instructional videos to help me think about this crash. These poor pilots had seconds. Fly safe guys!

 

[ReverseSensing]

I don't know about the pusher on a Q-400, but on the ATR the pusher is not tied in with the radio altimeter and is never inhibited in flight except for 10 seconds after takeoff.

Pusher in the Q400 is inhibited below 500' AGL.

The Q400 has the squirreliest airspeed tape you've ever seen. Even in non-upset conditions, the tape swings wildly up and down (for example in windshear and/or turbulence). This makes for some fairly sporty times when you're recovering (in the sim) from upsets, etc.

Without ice, in the sim, I always thought the stall and recovery characteristics were pretty docile. But I never saw a tail stall in the sim. Not part of the curriculum.

 

[Singlecoil]

Tail stall occurs when the angle of attack goes excessively negative.

Main wing stall occurs when the angle of attack goes excessively positive.

The pusher only fires at high angles of attack. The pusher should not fire during a tail stall... however if a tail stall leads to an upset it is understandable at some point during the attempted recovery the angle of attack could exceed the amount required to fire the pusher.

I think you may be oversimplifying things a bit there.
Tail stall occurs when the horizontal stabilizer's critical angle of attack (negative angle of attack) is exceeded or there is airflow separation about the horizontal stabilizer due to ice on the leading edge. The horizontal stabilizer (tail) experiences the highest demand for negative lift (tail down force) and the most negative angle of attack when the wing's center of pressure (lift) is furthest aft of the center of gravity. This occurs at higher airpeeds and when the flaps are extended. If you think about it, when you accelerate or when you add flaps you need to push on the yoke, or add more tail down force to keep the nose from rising. This act of pushing is what increases the angle of attack on the tail (in the negative direction if you will) and can lead to a tail stall.

 

[Flightjock30]

As someone of a friend who works for the NTSB this is what REALLY happened.....
autopilot was engages, one of the wing's de-icing system was working, the other did not work (due to a mechanical failure that is still under investigation at this moment....). The crew lost control of the aircraft as it spiraled to the ground in a nose dive from loss of lift on one of the wings.
A lift imbalance due to one wing unable to melt the ice off caused this crash!
Godspeed to all!

 

[Captzaahlie]

bad link earlier sorry:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3493859021331008391

note what is said at 31 minutes...

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

As someone of a friend who works for the NTSB this is what REALLY happened.....
autopilot was engages, one of the wing's de-icing system was working, the other did not work (due to a mechanical failure that is still under investigation at this moment....). The crew lost control of the aircraft as it spiraled to the ground in a nose dive from loss of lift on one of the wings.
A lift imbalance due to one wing unable to melt the ice off caused this crash!
Godspeed to all!

So, boots melt ice? Damn. I have thinking wrong for the past 11 years...

Your "buddy" at the NTSB already has it figured out and released the information to you? Then you post your neat tidbit on a public internet forum? Uh huh.

I don't know what your adgenda is here, but this smells like bull$hit. The NTSB is normally tighter than that.

 

[satpak77]

I can guarantee you that the NTSB has not "released" information to any "buddies"

 

[Captzaahlie]

I'm on dial-up. What does it say?

In a nut shell NASA test pilots say that NO Aircraft has ever been built to operate in "SLD" ICING CONDITIONS...... (super sized droplet freezing rain conditions)


You don't have to watch the full video, you can just drag the bar to that time position...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3493859021331008391

note what is said at 31 minutes...

 

[goodgig]

As someone of a friend who works for the NTSB this is what REALLY happened.....
autopilot was engages, one of the wing's de-icing system was working, the other did not work (due to a mechanical failure that is still under investigation at this moment....). The crew lost control of the aircraft as it spiraled to the ground in a nose dive from loss of lift on one of the wings.
A lift imbalance due to one wing unable to melt the ice off caused this crash!
Godspeed to all!

Please. Go crawl under a rock. Now.

 

[great cornholio]

Nope... At least not on the DHC-8-100/300. Bombardier says start the boots at the first sign of ice on the airplane. I have never seen "bridging" in any turboprop I have flown. Occassionally, you will run someone who claims to have seen it, but I think it is sort of like the Loch Ness Monster... It doesn't really exist.

While I never saw any true "bridging" I always liked to wait for a decent amount of ice on the 1900. If you blew the boots too early only small chunks would come off leaving a nasty looking leading edge with lots of big chunks of ice sticking to it. If you let ice build up then big chunks would break off and leave you with a pretty clean leading edge. I also think that waiting for approx 1/4 to 1/2 inch of ice was in the SOP, GOM, or Beech 1900 AFM.

When I flew the J41 it seemed like it did a better job of getting the wing clean with smaller amounts of ice on the leading edge.

 

[172driver]

I think you may be oversimplifying things a bit there.
Tail stall occurs when the horizontal stabilizer's critical angle of attack (negative angle of attack) is exceeded or there is airflow separation about the horizontal stabilizer due to ice on the leading edge. The horizontal stabilizer (tail) experiences the highest demand for negative lift (tail down force) and the most negative angle of attack when the wing's center of pressure (lift) is furthest aft of the center of gravity. This occurs at higher airpeeds and when the flaps are extended. If you think about it, when you accelerate or when you add flaps you need to push on the yoke, or add more tail down force to keep the nose from rising. This act of pushing is what increases the angle of attack on the tail (in the negative direction if you will) and can lead to a tail stall.

Something doesn't sound right here. My mind is getting a little bent thinking about aerodynamics, but doesn't pushing on the yoke decrease tail down force?

 

[Captzaahlie]

Maybe a name change to flight jock itch is warranted?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Maybe a name change to flight jock itch is warranted?

If only we could sprinkle some "Gold Bond Medicated Powder" on him and make him go away.

 

[Flightjock30]

when the NTSB releases the investigation results I am going to relink that thread to my original post. You will all see that I am 100% accurate.
Have a nice day! And believe what you want, I KNOW the truth and having nothing to lose by "leaking" it.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Something doesn't sound right here.

Like?

 

[satpak77]

when the NTSB releases the investigation results I am going to relink that thread to my original post. You will all see that I am 100% accurate.
Have a nice day! And believe what you want, I KNOW the truth and having nothing to lose by "leaking" it.

Ok now go away its beddy bye time, mom wants to tuck you in, being 10:30 PM CDT time and you are up kinda late for your age

 

[Captzaahlie]

I am the great cornholio I need T.P. for my bunghole.
I hope my bungholio does not get polio.
I come from Lake Titicocka where I never saw any true "bridging" I always liked to wait for a decent amount. If you blew too early only small chunks would come off leaving a nasty looking with lots of big chunks sticking to it. If you let build up then big chunks would break off and leave you with a pretty clean edge. I also think that waiting for approx 1/4 to 1/2 inch of seemed like it did a better job of getting the clean with smaller amounts on the leading edge. I am the great cornholio I need T.P. for my bunghole.
I hope my bungholio does not get polio.
I come from Lake Titicocka.

I agree either lots of toilet paper or a clean break is the only way to go! :laugh:


not picking on you cornholio just saw an opportunity to lighten the mood a little with my strange sense of humor.......

 

[Captzaahlie]

when the NTSB releases the investigation results I am going to relink that thread to my original post. You will all see that I am 100% accurate.
Have a nice day! And believe what you want, I KNOW the truth and having nothing to lose by "leaking" it.

Lighten up "Francis" reading your testosterone laden post is making my sack itch now too.....​