Coke

[westwind driver]

See here we go hot heads, I wasn't trying to get involved with all this nor will I. I was simply saying that a person shouldn't be judged by their time, but by their experience. No, I don't want to fly the shuttle or think I'm a captain (note the respectful part of what I was saying) I know my role. I have plenty of Honeywell FMS experience and at first it was a little hard and I'm still learning somethings, but being able to shoot an ILS to minimums and programming an ILS are not even related. I respect the sky and everything else within this industry and will never claim to know everything regardless of how many "thousands of hours or type ratings I have or need to have" It's that type of attitude that gets people killed.

And 400A,

I hardly ever post on this website anyway so where are you coming from?

Munky, take it from a fellow 'gear slapper' (I know you who got on my case before love hearing that out of my ;-) ) TIME has Everything to do with experience. They are both proportionate to each other. Granted, flying your Navajo in IMC at night may be a bigger learning experience than flying a G550 at altitude (FL510) for 8 hours and then shooting a CAT II/III/EVS approach.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that the pilots who fly that Gulfstream didn't once before fly a Navajo. Trust me when I say time means a lot, because generally speaking, if you have the time, you have the experience.

Kind Regards

Happy New Year to All.... good to be back after the holidays.

 

[400A]

Rof!!!

Never pass up the chance to shut your mouth.

I gotta remember that one for my 15 year old!!!! LOL

 

[Gearmunky]

Trust me when I say time means a lot, because generally speaking, if you have the time, you have the experience.

GENERALLY SPEAKING is the point I was getting at. I was just trying to make a point that a person shouldn't be judged by their time because numbers in a log book don't equal all they're thought of on paper.

Think of it like this, some guy who has flown for 15 years has 2000 hours with 1000 multi and all the other stuff. Now take that same 2000 hours and put it into a guy who's flown in all in 5 years who do you think is going to be a better pilot???? But on paper they look the same. That's all I'm getting at.

Of course the ego-maniacs have to look at it like I'm a 750 hour pilot who thinks he knows everything and I'm shooting my mouth off, in which isn't and regardless of hours will never will be true. I respect my elder pilots and can do nothing, but learn from them, but judging another pilot because of his time is a double edged sword. Low time pilots can be a lot better than expected, and high time pilots can be a lot worse. So in essence numbers aren't all what they seem to be.

 

[El Cid '95]

Gear Monkey,

You can not win. I hope that you limit this debate to anonymous chat boards and do not discuss it in person. Your points are generally correct IMO, but please keep them to yourself in person for your own good.

BTW there are many low time pilots flying supersonic fighters and jet tankers/transports. WE do not trust them or give them the benefit of the doubt on anything until they gain the experience. The most practical and BEST measure of experience is hours flown, and as you mentioned above, recency is important.

Most corporate and airline hiring folks understand the experience paradigm. An F-16 pilot with 3000 hours has 2000 sorties and all his time is PIC. This is not the same as a 3000 hour tanker pilot who did not become and aircraft commander (capt) until 1000 hours as a copilot (first officer).

Seniority is everything in aviation. Unfortunately some folks will not respect your opinions until you have triple your current hours. I'd love to see what your opinion is as you progress. Good luck.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Low time fighter guys are good at what they do,,,but Ive seen some strictly military trained pilots (especially fighter guys) have problems entering the civilian realm. Apples and oranges.

 

[mobie]

Total Time

Gear Monkey,

I have been flying for a very long time. I have never flown that perfect trip and have learned from everyone I have flown with, I hope you will do the same.

When I fly a trip that I do not learn, I will hang it up.

Mobie

 

[typhoonpilot]

Well said mobs. I'm still trying to get that perfect flight in, maybe that is why I stay in this business. Kind of like playing golf in a way. Can't seem to get it perfect for all 18 holes, but I'll keep trying .

Happy New Year !


Typhoonpilot

 

[murfdawg998]

so happened to the discussion we were having on coke and why some folks don't wanna work there?? what's so bad about them again??

 

[Gearmunky]

Gear Monkey,

I have been flying for a very long time. I have never flown that perfect trip and have learned from everyone I have flown with, I hope you will do the same.

When I fly a trip that I do not learn, I will hang it up.

Mobie

Extremely well said, I too believe the same thing. I say the same thing about my duck hunting, if your not learning your doing something wrong. Every hunting trip and every flight is different no matter how much they seem the same.

 

[bangdurmominaG4]

Gear Monkey,

You can not win. I hope that you limit this debate to anonymous chat boards and do not discuss it in person. Your points are generally correct IMO, but please keep them to yourself in person for your own good.

QUOTE]

its the internet.. why would anyone keep their opinion to themself ?

 

[flyer172r]

its the internet.. why would anyone keep their opinion to themself ?

"The internet has given everyone in America a voice. For some reason, everybody decides to use that voice to b!tch about movies (or in our case low-time pilots, pay, sitting reserve, bad mgmt, etc)." -Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

Pardon me for quoting a bad movie, but I thought it best to try to lighten the mood a little. Anyways, I think we're really dealing with the age-old problem of nobody will hire you without experience, but how do you get the experience if nobody will hire you? And yes, I realize that we shouldn't be too eager to skip the traditional, time- and character-building road of instructing, charter, etc., but for all you experienced pilots, let me ask a question. A question not meant to start an argument, but a genuine question because I really respect your opinions and wish to learn from you.

Even after you had your couple thousand hours and type ratings, when you got into a jet and programmed the FMS for the first time, and flew into the flight levels at 4-500 knots, and flew that ILS to minimums with moderate icing and a level-four thunderstorm nearby with an engine inoperative (once again, trying to lighten the mood), how did you do? Do you feel that having more hours in smaller aircraft gave you a definite advantage, or did you still feel overwhelmed? Are most of the captains out there understanding about FOs new to the aircraft, yet still demand basic flying and radio skills? I would hope (and please don't flame me for this) that most of the captains understand that no matter how many hours you have, you will likely be behind an airplane you don't have first-hand experience with for your first couple flights.

Again, this is just a theory, so please politely correct me if I'm wrong. And if there are captains like this (which I'm hoping include many on this board), would you rather have a new FO with thousands of hours by himself and has a definite style of flying, or one who has less experience, but good basic flying and radio skills, with a humble attitude who you can "mold" into the co-pilot you want?

Hope I came off as humble enough.

 

[SCT]

Gearmunky,

I agree with everyone else about the hand flying raw data to minimums. Yes, you should be able to do it, but why? Like I was told in 604 initial, the sim. instuctor told me i could fly an airplane (I was hand flying to much), but my job as PIC was to manage the aircraft and to use the equipment on board.

Now, tell us about your GIV experience? Did you see one on the ramp, once?

 

[2000flyer]

Rice,

...
The 4000 hour guy I fly with got his hours VFR in Alaska not talking to anyone, and flying at 500 feet. It's seat of the pants flying, but is completely different than flying in the crud, talking to the wonderful controllers around here in the northeast, and handling the a/c at the same time. ...

My guess is your buddy's "VFR" time in Alaska is probably equal to some of the poorest IFR time you have. I have a few friends who've done bush flying and they'll take off in "VFR" that I'd never consider, fly a good distance in some of the most unforgiving terrain and environment in the U.S., and do it several times a day. I'd also guess this guy looks out the window at 400 and 2 and wonders what all the fuss is about!

As far as you "babysitting" with a massive 700 hours indicates your ego has more padding than your logbook!

We've all been in the "low-time" phase of our careers. We all bemoaned ads where a department wanted thousands of hours of experience. We've all felt "we" had the ability to do the job a 1500 hour pilot could. And, we all learned we didn't know what the he** we were talking about and can now fondly look back on those days and laugh at our foolishness of youth.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[flyer172r]

We've all been in the "low-time" phase of our careers. We all bemoaned ads where a department wanted thousands of hours of experience. We've all felt "we" had the ability to do the job a 1500 hour pilot could. And, we all learned we didn't know what the he** we were talking about and can now fondly look back on those days and laugh at our foolishness of youth.

Regards,
2000Flyer

Could you please explain how you realized you didn't know what the he** you were talking about? Provide some examples, maybe? At what point did you go from thinking you were all that to really being all that.

 

[400A]

Example

Could you please explain how you realized you didn't know what the he** you were talking about? Provide some examples, maybe? At what point did you go from thinking you were all that to really being all that.

When you make a mistake, scare the crap out of yourself, survive the mistake, recognize the mistake and learn from it.