Coke

[flyer172r]

its the internet.. why would anyone keep their opinion to themself ?

"The internet has given everyone in America a voice. For some reason, everybody decides to use that voice to b!tch about movies (or in our case low-time pilots, pay, sitting reserve, bad mgmt, etc)." -Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

Pardon me for quoting a bad movie, but I thought it best to try to lighten the mood a little. Anyways, I think we're really dealing with the age-old problem of nobody will hire you without experience, but how do you get the experience if nobody will hire you? And yes, I realize that we shouldn't be too eager to skip the traditional, time- and character-building road of instructing, charter, etc., but for all you experienced pilots, let me ask a question. A question not meant to start an argument, but a genuine question because I really respect your opinions and wish to learn from you.

Even after you had your couple thousand hours and type ratings, when you got into a jet and programmed the FMS for the first time, and flew into the flight levels at 4-500 knots, and flew that ILS to minimums with moderate icing and a level-four thunderstorm nearby with an engine inoperative (once again, trying to lighten the mood), how did you do? Do you feel that having more hours in smaller aircraft gave you a definite advantage, or did you still feel overwhelmed? Are most of the captains out there understanding about FOs new to the aircraft, yet still demand basic flying and radio skills? I would hope (and please don't flame me for this) that most of the captains understand that no matter how many hours you have, you will likely be behind an airplane you don't have first-hand experience with for your first couple flights.

Again, this is just a theory, so please politely correct me if I'm wrong. And if there are captains like this (which I'm hoping include many on this board), would you rather have a new FO with thousands of hours by himself and has a definite style of flying, or one who has less experience, but good basic flying and radio skills, with a humble attitude who you can "mold" into the co-pilot you want?

Hope I came off as humble enough.

 

[SCT]

Gearmunky,

I agree with everyone else about the hand flying raw data to minimums. Yes, you should be able to do it, but why? Like I was told in 604 initial, the sim. instuctor told me i could fly an airplane (I was hand flying to much), but my job as PIC was to manage the aircraft and to use the equipment on board.

Now, tell us about your GIV experience? Did you see one on the ramp, once?

 

[2000flyer]

Rice,

...
The 4000 hour guy I fly with got his hours VFR in Alaska not talking to anyone, and flying at 500 feet. It's seat of the pants flying, but is completely different than flying in the crud, talking to the wonderful controllers around here in the northeast, and handling the a/c at the same time. ...

My guess is your buddy's "VFR" time in Alaska is probably equal to some of the poorest IFR time you have. I have a few friends who've done bush flying and they'll take off in "VFR" that I'd never consider, fly a good distance in some of the most unforgiving terrain and environment in the U.S., and do it several times a day. I'd also guess this guy looks out the window at 400 and 2 and wonders what all the fuss is about!

As far as you "babysitting" with a massive 700 hours indicates your ego has more padding than your logbook!

We've all been in the "low-time" phase of our careers. We all bemoaned ads where a department wanted thousands of hours of experience. We've all felt "we" had the ability to do the job a 1500 hour pilot could. And, we all learned we didn't know what the he** we were talking about and can now fondly look back on those days and laugh at our foolishness of youth.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[flyer172r]

We've all been in the "low-time" phase of our careers. We all bemoaned ads where a department wanted thousands of hours of experience. We've all felt "we" had the ability to do the job a 1500 hour pilot could. And, we all learned we didn't know what the he** we were talking about and can now fondly look back on those days and laugh at our foolishness of youth.

Regards,
2000Flyer

Could you please explain how you realized you didn't know what the he** you were talking about? Provide some examples, maybe? At what point did you go from thinking you were all that to really being all that.

 

[400A]

Example

Could you please explain how you realized you didn't know what the he** you were talking about? Provide some examples, maybe? At what point did you go from thinking you were all that to really being all that.

When you make a mistake, scare the crap out of yourself, survive the mistake, recognize the mistake and learn from it.

 

[gear_guy]

Well I really didnt want to get involved with this thread but it's wearing a little thin on my patience. I am a qualified pilot with 3 types in turbo jet aircraft. I can honestly say that time counts, but not as much as quality of time. I, for one, have never seen the ego of a 700 hour pilot. They are usually very humbled and respectful of high time jet pilots. And generally want to learn. The pilots that scare me are the 10k hour know-it-all captains. That is the most dangerous people in aviation. Not the young 700 hour pilot who can fly circles around your old, tired butt. Most of the egos I come into contact are from the high-timers who are scared some college educated, young punk is gonna come steal their job. They protect their egos by convincing themselves that what they do is really difficult and it takes alot of time to get where I am. But all this crap about you have to have umpteen thousand hours to fly these high performance jets is silly. And you all know it.... It's just been so long that you forgot. I started flyin jets at around 600 hours and got the first type at 800. I have a friend flying a G4 right now with 800 hours 350 of which is sim time. And guess what he's typed and I hear he's a good pilot. The hardest flying I've done has been as a CFI. I've been in jets for about 7 years now and I forgot what work is. Now I'm lucky to log .2 actual. I remember flying POS singles in IMC and inadvertant icing without a radar for the entire length of the flight. Now that stuff is stupid! If I've learned anything, it's that I don't want to go back to really working for a living. Flame away boys and girls. But it's my opinion.

 

[gear_guy]

When you make a mistake, scare the crap out of yourself, survive the mistake, recognize the mistake and learn from it.

I do that alot less of that now than I used to flying POS singles. Does that mean that my experience came from flying pistons? If so, that would kinda negate the whole jet experience argument.

 

[400A]

Ok Gear Guy, You Asked For It!!!

That post had to be a joke. If you really think that a 700-800 hour pilot can fly circles around a 10,000 hour pilot, then you need to share some of what ever that is that you are taking/smoking.

That was with out a doubt one of the most idiotic things I have ever read.

The 7-800 hour pilot flying in the Gulfstream is in not much danger of getting killed in a G4 crash. He will show up about 10 minutes after the accident and ask the rescue crew " what happened here?"

He may have practiced the check ride enough times to get the rating, but if you think I would want to be in the back of his Gulfstream when the red light cane on in the northeast cooridor and it was 200 -1/2 then you are nuts!! He would be so far behind he would most likely be a henderance to the Captain. VERY SCARY you yourself said 350 of that was in the sim. So how much weather experience does he have? how much ATC experience does he have? How many route changes in the northeast has he had? The list goes on and on. When he got scared, all he had to do was turn the sim off.

Now, as far as you not liking the personality of some 10,000 hour pilots.... WHO CARES...There are Jerks in every corner of the world and in every business.

I have Trained both 10,000 hour guys, and 800 hour guys for 135 rides and given them checkrides..... and believe me, wheather you agree or not, there is NO replacement for time in the seat. I have no beef with the "PUNKS" as you call them, in fact I hire them too, but there is no comparison between the two.

Which one would you send your family with?

 

[400A]

Wrong

I do that alot less of that now than I used to flying POS singles. Does that mean that my experience came from flying pistons? If so, that would kinda negate the whole jet experience argument.

No body said jet experience only, we said experience. Rice, G200, Mobie and others have all advocated starting at the botton and working up just like we all did.

Like mine,,, 152, 172, 182, Barron, King-Air, Merlin, Starship, Citation, Diamond, Astra, and Beechjet..... I learned something from every single one of them... and fortunately the Merlin did not kill me.

But I also leared massive amounts asking veterans questions while I was pumping gas!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

delete --- .

 

[bangdurmominaG4]

i hate to admit it, but gear guy has a great point. most high time flyers have the ego of a freaking blimp. lower time pilots usually show the aircraft more respect.

i think a lot of you need to get off of your high horse and realize that quality counts just as much quantity..

and to think that flying jets is harder than smaller aircraft is a joke. i feel like the more i fly corporate the more i just advance the throttle, pull back and hit autopilot..

flying these days is a joke.

 

[bangdurmominaG4]

and one more thing. i would rather have a lower time pilot with several hundred hours flying my family around than an overconfident high time pilot.

when i instructed in the past, i had students with 100-200 hours fly safer, land smoother, and navigate more precisely than most pilots with several thousand hours..

 

[2000flyer]

and one more thing. i would rather have a lower time pilot with several hundred hours flying my family around than an overconfident high time pilot.

when i instructed in the past, i had students with 100-200 hours fly safer, land smoother, and navigate more precisely than most pilots with several thousand hours..

 

[GEXDriver]

flying these days is a joke...and one more thing. i would rather have a lower time pilot with several hundred hours flying my family around than an overconfident high time pilot.

when i instructed in the past, i had students with 100-200 hours fly safer, land smoother, and navigate more precisely than most pilots with several thousand hours..

Pal, you don't sound like a mature, high-time Captain, particularly with the views you've expressed. Insurance companies have experience requirements for a reason. My guess is that it's your list of qualifications that's the joke here.

 

[Otter]

dont mean to flame, just meant as another point of view

Well I chimed in earlier, and have read with amusement. Long and the short of it, no one can successfully win or negotiate a discussion using only extreme examples. No one will argue that an ultra high time, non-CRM, ego ridden pilot diminishes safety and makes for a horrid flight deck environment. That however, does not diminish the fact that a cockpit staffed with two well trained and experienced pilots is the best possible scenario for safety.



I further believe outside of the polar extremes being discussed that there are some pilots that at lower experience levels are fully capable of handling “large” corporate jets. I further agree that there are some higher time pilots that have opted to allow their proficiency and expertise to diminish through belief there is entitlement with flight time and acquired type ratings. I believe this to be the exception to the rule and not the rule in and of itself, in both situations. This is all, of course, IMHO and consistent with my experience over what is almost 20 years of flying. Not intended as a flame, but if it strikes you funny, flame away.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

and one more thing. i would rather have a lower time pilot with several hundred hours flying my family around than an overconfident high time pilot.

when i instructed in the past, i had students with 100-200 hours fly safer, land smoother, and navigate more precisely than most pilots with several thousand hours..

yup, this guy is full of $HIT! --- you aint bangin nuthin - just pulling your own pud!

aircraft flown...what a GEX?

 

[gear_guy]

.

Like mine,,, 152, 172, 182, Barron, King-Air, Merlin, Starship, Citation, Diamond, Astra, and Beechjet..... I learned something from every single one of them... and fortunately the Merlin did not kill me.

I get it! You had to work your way up, so everyone should. Don't be jealous that someone got opportunities that you never be had. Be happy for them instead. If insurance companies would'nt let an 800 hour pilot fly the G4 then I guess we would'nt be having this discussion....would we?

Let me get this right. You're going to discredit a valid type rating in the FSI sim as experience, but your hangar talk with pilots while fueling gave you experience . Look! I pumped gas too. But I did'nt ask pilots questions on the ramp. I did my job, and let them do their job. I guess I really missed out on alot of "experience". After all you can take what those pilots tell you to the bank (sarcasm).

 

[400A]

You dont read well

I get it! You had to work your way up, so everyone should. Don't be jealous that someone got opportunities that you never be had. Be happy for them instead. If insurance companies would'nt let an 800 hour pilot fly the G4 then I guess we would'nt be having this discussion....would we?

Let me get this right. You're going to discredit a valid type rating in the FSI sim as experience, but your hangar talk with pilots while fueling gave you experience . Look! I pumped gas too. But I did'nt ask pilots questions on the ramp. I did my job, and let them do their job. I guess I really missed out on alot of "experience". After all you can take what those pilots tell you to the bank (sarcasm).

Did not say that was experience! I said I learned something, and I did my job well and did not bother pilots on the ramp. However on slow sundays some of the veterans would hand out to drink coffee and we would talk. One in particular gave me my first co-pilot experience in the King Air. 19 years later he is like an adopted father.

And yes, I will say that the sim is good experience, but it will in no way replace or equal real world experience.

By the way, I am not jealous, I am very comfortable with my carrer decisions, and it has been a great ride.

I am not the one in here crying like some little baby because someone set minimum requirements.

 

[400A]

You said it!!

yup, this guy is full of $HIT! --- you aint bangin nuthin - just pulling your own pud!

aircraft flown...what a GEX?

GEX = global express

HEY OTTER: Well Said!

 

[mobie]

They Must Be Great

and one more thing. i would rather have a lower time pilot with several hundred hours flying my family around than an overconfident high time pilot.

when i instructed in the past, i had students with 100-200 hours fly safer, land smoother, and navigate more precisely than most pilots with several thousand hours..

Now have them do the ADF into Kathmandu or talk to ATC in Gambia. Been there done that have the tee shirt.

Mobie