Coke

[2000flyer]

400a - just curious - since when do you have to have the fms programmed to shoot an ILS to mins?

It's about situational awareness. It's about safety. It's about using all means available on the flightdeck to aid your job.

Most if not all advanced cockpits using EFIS present a picture of your course. Programming the FMS for an ILS or any other type of approach puts the picture right in front of you. On the 2000 EASy (and many others I'm sure) having the approach programmed, along with the miss and hold, when I hit mins and have to miss, I hit the TOGA, the FMS automatically sequences to the missed approach procedure, I arm and fly LNAV by hand or by autopilot. There is no worries about tracking headings, intercepting radials, etc. Of course, I have those as back up, but my FMS gives me everything including published altitudes and will give me guidance in entering and flying the hold. I still know how to do all this manually but why not use any and every means available to make my job (and life) easier, not to mention safer.

I'm all in favor of giving young pilots a break. I'm also an advocate of paying ones dues. That is to say, getting experience, not washing the boss' car! At 700 hours, regardless of make and model flown, how much has been actual IFR? How many approaches has one made (actual, not hood)? How many actual missed approaches? My guess is not very many. Chances are, if someone did hire you at that low time (other than CFI), most of your flying has been heading out on a sunny afternoon for the $100 hamburger with your buddies.

Another thing to consider that has been overlooked (unless I missed it in the threads), lets say you landed your dream job, right seat in a G4 or Falcon 900 or a Lear 60 at 700-800 hours total time. You get through the SIC initial. You're now in the right seat with not much more than sim time. How confident are you if your veteran captain keels over on the yoke? How confident are you if your vetern captain suddenly becomes ill due to the bad fish he had for lunch and has to spend time in the lav? Ok, chances are remote this would ever happen, but, what if? Is this a reasonable question a Chief Pilot and CEO must ask themselves? You bet it is.

If a CP wants to hire a 700 hour pilot, great...more power to them. But they are also going to have to deal with their seasoned pilot's grumpiness when they not only have to concern themselves with their normal duties, but also watching over your every move until you've gained some experience. Many departments put higher approach minimums on new pilot's as a safety buffer. Thats pilot's with three times your experience. What are they supposed to do with a 700 hour pilot, up them to 1000 & 1? Good grief, a winter in the midwest and you might never get to shoot the approach!

As I said before, we've all been there (low time). I know when push comes to shove, my CEO wants a pilot who can handle the worst case scenario, be it as a crew of single pilot.

Regards,

2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

400a - just curious - since when do you have to have the fms programmed to shoot an ILS to mins?

Might be nice to have the missed app. and holding in the FMS, you might not land when you get to mins. Just a few key strokes to sel. the app. and it is all there.

include me in the question...

Do you usually shoot approaches w/o putting them in the FMS????

..

 

[FracCapt]

400a - just curious - since when do you have to have the fms programmed to shoot an ILS to mins?

Why would you not? It's a few keystrokes. In most airplanes, it sequences in the missed approach if you hit the GA button. If you can't handle the airplane and plug in the approach in the FMS, you shouldn't be flying the airplane. IMO, if you can't do everything by yourself in the airplane(everything you can physically reach), you shouldn't be in it. If the other pilot is incapacitated, you're on your own...you better be able to handle it. Do you honestly believe a 700 hour pilot in a GIV could do so when the sh!t hits the fan?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Yes I do. There are tons of 200 hour 'wonder' pilots in europe flying 737/A320' around the place..

 

[2000flyer]

Yes I do. There are tons of 200 hour 'wonder' pilots in europe flying 737/A320' around the place..

However...

These pilot's, from day one, are screened and tested BEFORE they start flight training. Once in training, it's all done as a "crew" where heavy emphasis is put on CRM. Early in their training, it's regimented and typically airline specific.

To suggest they run out to mom and pop's flight school for a commercial and dart off to the airline is a total and complete misrepresentation.

They may also have strong limitations placed on them during their early careers. Some have requirements that don't allow the FO to fly the aircraft until reaching a certain minimum hour level in that type of aircraft.

An example I personally know of with an Asian carrier. They had sent a 4000 hour pilot to a reputable Texas simulator training company for a Citation type rating. This individual had over 3500 hours SIC experience on a B744. This amiable fellow was a risk to himself and everyone else when his hands were on the controls. His situational awareness and ability to fly in IMC conditions were so bad he'd never pass an FAA instrument ride. Why, you are wondering? Their company procedures were so that the FO (hired with around 300TT) was never allowed to fly the plane. Their procedures and culture dictated that the CA was the only manipulator of the controls. He had met the prerequisite to upgrade to CA, thus the training for a type rating in Texas. Once that was completed the soon-to-be upgraded pilot would go through several months of a training program at his airline.

Foreign carriers have stark difference from what we're used to seeing the the U.S. To try and compare the two is akin to comparing a Ford Probe to a BMW Z3.

2000Flyer

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Id rather be driving a US car, bu if it has to be a German car, I’ll take a Z4

The thing is, all that matters (my 2 cents) is the quality of time (2000 hours C172 skydiving or 800 hours citation part 135..)

Would your boss rather be flying with a 45 y/old 4000 hour pilot (2000 hours CFI + 1000 hours skydiving), or a 27 y/old 2000 hour pilot (900 hours King Air + 600 hours Citation)..


Have a great day

 

[El Cid '95]

A close friend of mine was a tanker captain @ 750 hours. According to all of the time flamers in here, that shouldn't be. Remember that the airplane is only military on the ground and just another hunk of metal taking up space in the sky. Can the military duplicate everything on the ground in a sim? No, I don't think so and neither can we. So I guess the military should make their pilots shoot the pattern for a thousand hours in a T-41 before stepping them up to a tweet?


Bull. There are no tanker aircraft commanders with 750 hours. They are not even considered experienced copilots (first officers) unitl they hit 800. Oh yeah, the min requirement to upgrade is 1000. Some folks get waivers if they are slightly below, but flying a heavy jet with 750 hours as the PIC is unbelievable.

 

[Gearmunky]

As far as your 784 hour log book, I cant help but notice you have not passed a type ride. That alone tells me something.... Tells me you are more than likely serving the drinks in the back...or you cant pass a type ride... which would prove our point. Cheers

Look here Chiefy, I can't help the fact that where I am in my career offends you. Since you obviously can read numbers better than letters, I'll do my best to spell this out for you.

19th letter of the alphabet = S
09th letter of the alphabet = I
03rd letter of the alphabet = C

03rd letter of the alphabet = C
08th letter of the alphabet = H
05th letter of the alphabet = E
03rd letter of the alphabet = C
11th letter of the alphabet = K

So don't knock me for not being typed, I wasn't offered the ride. I'll get it on my next recurrent.

As for Otter, your words make perfect sense. Although under no circumstances will I ever claim to represent "true aviation excellence," I have just had the fortunate chance to be mentored (and given a chance) by some of the best in the business, who are in person, like you and GV flyer seem to be in words. Reserved and humble and don't feel the need to flaunt their experience.

Spoken like a true Captain who can see things both ways, your comments are respectable.

The people who think they have it flaunt everything they have; while the people who really have it, you'd never know it.

 

[Gearmunky]

Bull. There are no tanker aircraft commanders with 750 hours. They are not even considered experienced copilots (first officers) unitl they hit 800. Oh yeah, the min requirement to upgrade is 1000. Some folks get waivers if they are slightly below, but flying a heavy jet with 750 hours as the PIC is unbelievable.

Well he was an Academy grad (not sure if that matters) and this was a long time ago. That's what he told me, when I was telling him of this whole argument. I couldn't get in the military(eyes) so I have to go by the guys I work with who were all in at some point or another.

Maybe things have changed you would no better than I would, but like I said this was a long time ago.

 

[400A]

Look here Chiefy, I can't help the fact that where I am in my career offends you. Since you obviously can read numbers better than letters, I'll do my best to spell this out for you.

19th letter of the alphabet = S
09th letter of the alphabet = I
03rd letter of the alphabet = C

03rd letter of the alphabet = C
08th letter of the alphabet = H
05th letter of the alphabet = E
03rd letter of the alphabet = C
11th letter of the alphabet = K

So don't knock me for not being typed, I wasn't offered the ride. I'll get it on my next recurrent.


SIC ONLY CHECK = Not Capeable of PIC Check. I type all of my pilots first time through, If they cant pass it, they dont need to be in it.. Glad to see you know your alphabet though!!! Just as I thought. Like the others said, I hope nothing happens to your captain.

 

[Gearmunky]

SIC ONLY CHECK = Not Capeable of PIC Check. I type all of my pilots first time through, If they cant pass it, they dont need to be in it.. Glad to see you know your alphabet though!!! Just as I thought. Like the others said, I hope nothing happens to your captain.

I am fully capable of a PIC check, I just wasn't offered it. What I am supposed to do? Say, No sir I don't want to fly that without a PIC check?

I think this proves that your ego is more than your common sense. I sure hope nothing happens to your co-pilot.

Now, I'm through with this tit-for-tat bullsh!t, so I think you should take your own advice and sit down, shut up, and learn that your 5000 hours and chief pilot position doesn't make you the voice of the industry and your point of view isn't shared by all.

As for me, I'm off to enjoy a cold bottle of Moosehead, a Porterhouse, and some Lobstah with my girlfriend.

All the best,

Munky

 

[400A]

Munky

You seem to be the only one here on an ego trip. not me.

You are also the only one that keeps bringing my qualifications up. I have news for you Richard Cranium, 5000 hours is not alot of time, but someone did have the confidence in me to make me chief pilot. (which you seem so threatened by) You brought that up, not me. Get over yourself and the fact that you are some sort of gift to aviation because you CLAIM to be flying a Gulfstream. (which you keep reminding us over, and over, and over)

By the way, there had to be a reason your CP did not offer you a PIC check.

And as far as your reference to my skills, while I am no better than anyone else on this board, I do pass 2 PIC checks per year in the aircraft, which you have not done.

Also, being Chief Pilot does not in any way imply superior airmanship. What it does mean is that I am responsible for people and their actions. With an ego and attitude like yours, I am glad I am not responsible for you.

Now, I to am done here. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed individual.

400A

 

[mobie]

PIC Check & Type

I am fully capable of a PIC check, I just wasn't offered it. What I am supposed to do? Say, No sir I don't want to fly that without a PIC check

Munky

Munky,

There is a big difference in getting the PIC ride&type and really going out and doing it. I know of a great corp. dept. that has a large Gulfstream fleet that only hires high time pilots that does not let them fly pic for 4 to 6 months after their type ride, why? they need that extra time to learn how to do it the way the dept. ops.

There is much more to flying 91 and 135 than doing steep turns on a check ride, you can teach a check ride to anyone, but you can not teach experence and care and feeding of a flight dept.

Most of my flying has been 121, but I have been luckey enough to have flown 91 at the same time; it is very different and other skills must be learned.

By the way when you are flying that G remember that most States (countries) have a requirement that both pilots are typed and have a 1st. class med.

Get your ATP written passed and when you have the time get your type, A com. type is not going to mean much.

Enjoy your dinner.

Mobie

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I am fully capable of a PIC check, I just wasn't offered it. What I am supposed to do? Say, No sir I don't want to fly that without a PIC check?

I think this proves that your ego is more than your common sense. I sure hope nothing happens to your co-pilot.

Now, I'm through with this tit-for-tat bullsh!t, so I think you should take your own advice and sit down, shut up, and learn that your 5000 hours and chief pilot position doesn't make you the voice of the industry and your point of view isn't shared by all.

As for me, I'm off to enjoy a cold bottle of Moosehead, a Porterhouse, and some Lobstah with my girlfriend.

All the best,

Munky

I still put my bucks on the fact that this guy will, unfortunatly, kill himself in that Navajo....


....

 

[Flyingdutchman]

6000 hours C172 - pattern work - won't get him killed.. Right?

 

[400A]

no body said that

6000 hours C172 - pattern work - won't get him killed.. Right?

He is not qualified to shotgun the G-string either,, as has ended up being the point of this thread, you need to work your way up.

For Example: My flight time and position are posted as Munky so often refers to, however, other than Bahamas, Mexico and Canada (which are easy) I have no international experience. Before I blasted out for China or Russia, I would want G200, 2000Flyer, GVflyer, Mobie or someone with that experience to go along the first time or two to keep me from causing an international incident.

Much of experience is knowing when to say no, or call in the support troops.

It is very simple, C-172 to Gulfstream is UNSAFE!!!

Believe me, If my boss bought a Gulfstream tomorrow, their would be a veteran G-driver riding with me for a while. When he thought I was ready, then I would take it myself.

 

[Bumz_Rush]

what a load of BBBBBBBBCKS

I opened this thread to read about CC and its hiring and perhaps employment practices, instead I found a total bitching session, that was so boring.
If there is any one out there who has any input to continue this tread about CC, and its potental as a good employer, for lboth ow hours and high houred crew then please feel free to input.....until then...good

 

[Flyingdutchman]

400A,

I agree.

 

[GVFlyer]

Before applying at Coke, you might want to look at their recent history. Aviation Director fired. Chief Pilot forced into retirement. Ask why the last Captain was dismissed and why they would retain one of their demographic hires after she had been grounded three times for safety and proficiency deficiencies. There are good people at Coke, but it appears that they are suffering under a leadership that has priorities other than aviation professionalism and safety.

GV

 

[bafanguy]

Ask why the last Captain was dismissed and why they would retain one of their demographic hires after she had been grounded three times for safety and proficiency deficiencies.

GV

So, a hoop skirt with a poodle on it, and a little Revlon, and I'm in ?? I'm in the car to Wal-Mart !! You have to promise not to laugh, though...or ask me out.

.....OK, I'm already getting dirty looks from Dream Date. How about if I just apologize for my boorish nature rather than deleting the post ?