CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[General Lee]

BVT1151,

If history tells us anything, and often it DOES, we have seen Dalpa go for the lower rate to keep the flying. This happened in 1996, with Delta Express. Back then Delta management said they were going to get rid of the 737-200s UNLESS Dalpa agreed to a lot lower rates and form Delta Express. Dalpa capitulated, and the senior guys were left with better rates, and the junior guys were left with lower rates. Guys came back from furlough directly to Capt on the 732.

If there are discussions about this going on, and I don't know how you would know, there is NO DOUBT in my mind that Dalpa would protect their own pilots. To think that Comair would get any new EMB-190s or even the MD88s---is ridiculous---and you guys on this thread won't even give up a dime for your growth cause. We still have 888 guys on furlough, and Malone and our lead negotiator told us at an ATL LEC meeting that the recall schedule would continue, even in a Chap 11 senario. You obviously think they are lying. We shall see. I forsee Dalpa going lower on the rates for the smaller aircraft, and keeping as much as they possibly can on the 738s and up. But, you can be my FO on the MD88 anytime you want.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

I really wasn't saying you were wrong and I agree with most of your post. All I'm saying is that I'm prepared to not be suprised this Wednesday.

 

[General Lee]

What do you think will be said Wednesday? I think a gradual pare down of DFW (probably after the XMAS holiday) with the elimination of DL crew bases there. SLC doesn't appear to be affected much (atleast that is what was said in that article). As far as pilot numbers, since we haven't finished negotiating and the No Furlough Clause is still in effect, there shouldn't be much said about that until after negotiations are final---and I highly doubt Dalpa would allow that to disappear without J4J etc..... Phase 1 here may be one of many phases, and I doubt all will be revealed at once.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

If there is any J4J opportunity for our furloughs, it better be direct entry Captain on any new CR7s. Closer to USAir's deal, rather than UAL's. Dalpa knows this, too.

Riiiiiiiigghhtt

 

[wil]

General Lee-

I think furloughs should be able to keep DAL DOH for pay and benefit's but If Mainline insists on keeping us seperate then they should go to the bottom of our list for bidding.
I want Mainline to recover and succeed. I also want the furloughs to start flying again. However, I can't capitulate completely, I have a Wife and Golden Retriever to support.
Wednesday should be interesting though! I have a feeling we will all be surprised. And, in a good way.
I love being part of the Delta family! I just hope one day to move out of the servants quarters! Fly safe. Cheers- Wil

 

[Heavy Set]

General Lee-

I think furloughs should be able to keep DAL DOH for pay and benefit's but If Mainline insists on keeping us seperate then they should go to the bottom of our list for bidding.
I want Mainline to recover and succeed. I also want the furloughs to start flying again. However, I can't capitulate completely, I have a Wife and Golden Retriever to support.
Wednesday should be interesting though! I have a feeling we will all be surprised. And, in a good way.
I love being part of the Delta family! I just hope one day to move out of the servants quarters! Fly safe. Cheers- Wil

I don't see why J4J with Captain slots for any NEW aircraft would be a problem - emphasize "New" aircraft. Nobody would lose any current slots and then the Comair/ASA pilots would get all of the added Captain and FO slots as the furloughees are called up to the mainline. For any furloughees who do not have the seniority for Captain positions on NEW aircraft, then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list as FOs. That seems pretty reasonable to me and it is a win-win situation for everyone as Comair/ASA would be adding more new aircraft vs. no real growth at all. Isn't this being applied at both UAL and USAirways?

 

[wil]

Heavy- I see your point. Didn't understand about "new" aircraft. I am a simple man. I consider myself an Airline Pilot. All talk of airframe and Mainline versus Regional just plays into management's hands. Will anyone else see this? Cheers, Wil

 

[General Lee]

Wil,


I wouldn't want anyone to replace you, and Heavy Set was right---I tried to emphasize the NEW part. If mainline aircraft are going to be parked and REPLACED with newer, smaller aircraft, those pilots who would be replaced should have first bids.(like MDA) I cannot see Dalpa accepting anything else. If certain airlines want a larger piece of the pie, then they can also give Captain slots on their aircraft to any furloughed Delta pilot (like Mesa and USAir, also PSA). There are NO pilots out there( our guys who are furloughed) that want to go to Comair and be an FO----ASA maybe---but NO WAY to Comair. Our Dalpa board has enough proof of that already. Our MEC knows that also. But, I will say it again---you guys should not be bumped out of your seats.



JetpilotMike,

Just watch.


Heavyset,

The UAL way (allowing their furloughs to go to the RIGHT SEAT at second year pay) is NOT good enough. The USAir way (MDA style or direct entry Capt at other participating regional airlines) would be the preferred way I believe to most of our furloughs, if it got to that. No one should be BUMPED at any airline--only new aircraft deliveries.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wil]

Thanks General. Heavy explained it to me. See my previous post. I hope we all come out OK!! Cheers, Wil

 

[Dude]

If the folks over on Virginia Ave. want Jets for Jobs, that's fine with me. As long as those jobs are first year pay, new-hire jobs. Your brethren at DAL chose to leave the regional ranks and go to DAL. They forfeit their ability to bypass my bid for Captain when they signed up on the bottom of DAL's sen. list. Direct entry 70 Capt., my a$$. I'm not pullin' gear for some dooshbag that bet the farm and lost. You chose to leave our $hitty ranks and go across the street. Your problem. If we have this bogus deal imposed on us, I'm out. Talk about gettin' your knickers in a twist if it don't go your way. I guess it's not good enough we hired furloghed guys, now I gotta wipe their a$$ too?

I'll admit that I didn't want to spend a career here at ASA, when I started, but that's the way things go. Since I will be here longer, than most of your furloughed buddies ever were, I'm not gonna invite them to take what crappy earning potential I do have away. We're under no obligation to protect your job, only ours.

 

[bvt1151]

What do you think will be said Wednesday?

Bye Bye--General Lee

To tell you the truth, I don't know. I have this feeling Wednesday will bring bad news for Comair. Perhaps its the Fred will be in CVG immediately after the webcast, or perhaps its just intuition, but something doesn't seem right.

 

[General Lee]

Dude,

Who says the new planes could go to ASA or Comair? They could go to another DCI entity---one just made up like MDA. Do I know how to do something like that? Heck no. Dalpa would have to come up with the answers.



BVT1151,

Everyone feels targeted right now. Apparently the DFW stews were called personally and told that DFW would be closed---so that is a good first guess. I don't know if that means DCI would leave DFW, or if they would take over mainline stuff. They may announce EVENTUAL fleet withdrawls, but from what I have heard a lot of that would be when their individual leases expire--and the 732's start to go in 2005 thru 2008. The MD88 myth about it leaving the fleet was also debunked---and they are the first fleet to get the new interiors. Anything announced (personel wise) will not take place until after Xmas I bet. Hopefull they have a plan---and increased INTL flying is evident---additional flights to Mumbai, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, and Honolulu from ATL have been announced as of late---and new domestic routes to Burbank and Reno. It will be interesting....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DAL737FO]

If the folks over on Virginia Ave. want Jets for Jobs, that's fine with me. As long as those jobs are first year pay, new-hire jobs.

Why would that have to be? These would be aircraft that you would not have unless this deal was made. There is a 57-70seat cap on regional feed right now. The deal is that any new Captain seat above the 57th aircraft goes to a furloughee and once the furloughee's get recalled to mainline then the aircraft with all seat positions stays. Sounds like growth to me.

Your brethren at DAL chose to leave the regional ranks and go to DAL.

Just as you say later in your paragraph that you wanted to do also.

They forfeit their ability to bypass my bid for Captain when they signed up on the bottom of DAL's sen. list. Direct entry 70 Capt., my a$$.

This will not be your decision. You will have your standard issue one vote on the item if/when it goes to MEMRAT. You see the only way your contract can be modified is if your MEC approves it unilaterally or it goes to MEMRAT and 50% + 1 pilot votes yes on it. Either way the decision is not being made at the mainline level.


I'm not pullin' gear for some dooshbag that bet the farm and lost. You chose to leave our $hitty ranks and go across the street. Your problem. If we have this bogus deal imposed on us, I'm out. Talk about gettin' your knickers in a twist if it don't go your way. I guess it's not good enough we hired furloghed guys, now I gotta wipe their a$$ too?

Boy you are you miserable person. Why exactly is someone a douchebag if they wanted to move to greener pastures and yes during the late 90's and early 00's the majors were and for the most part are greener pastures.

I'll admit that I didn't want to spend a career here at ASA, when I started, but that's the way things go. Since I will be here longer, than most of your furloughed buddies ever were, I'm not gonna invite them to take what crappy earning potential I do have away. We're under no obligation to protect your job, only ours.

We are not asking you to protect anything. We have given up 49% of our flying to help the company. We have the most liberal scope clause of all the majors. All this J4J talk is only talk. There has been no LOA pushed forward to be looked at by any MEC. Matter of fact the only talk on the subject is on message boards like these.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[Palerider957]

Fins,


If there is any J4J opportunity for our furloughs, it better be direct entry Captain on any new CR7s. Closer to USAir's deal, rather than UAL's. Dalpa knows this, too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, this is at best antagonistic, and at worst --infuriating! If you think Bob Arnold will seriously consider bringing in DAL furloughees as CR7 Captains, think again. NO ONE at ASA will vote for this, NO ONE. If you really want to push us toward a strike, this would do it. The junior guys would only see their upgrade time soaring, and the senior guys have no love for DAL (after YEARS of snubbing).

NO one should be using US Air as an example of how to do things, that argument carries no weight here.

To be perfectly honest, if we were to strike, I'm seriously concerned that DALPA would want their people to fly our planes. That has been hinted at on these boards before.

 

[Vortilon]

General,

I would have to agree this J4J rumor you keep pushing is counterproductive. As a furloughed guy I appreciate your support but there is no basis for this rumor and it only serves to aggravate people. So far in this recall, there is a 60-80% bypass rate...maybe only 1/3 of the 1060 will come back anyway....we wouldn't "need" a J4J. Perhaps the numbers accepting recall will go up after GGs plan comes into view but I kind of doubt it will be significant.

You don't see furloughed pilots screaming for J4J on the DALPA board...it just isn't a topic. We've all been out for a long time now and have found other means. If a mechanism had been in place years ago, I'm sure many would have taken advantage of it but now there's so much animosity I really wouldn't want to deal with it every day in the crew rooms.

Don't take offense...I'm on your side on a great many things but I get a little tired of us furloughed guys being used as a wedge.

 

[drag]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline? Who's to say that they need to be delivered to CMR or ASA? The majority of these airplanes were bought by DAL. They could brought to DAL, or be used to start a new airline.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline? Who's to say that they need to be delivered to CMR or ASA? The majority of these airplanes were bought by DAL. They could brought to DAL, or be used to start a new airline.

They can do anything they want, but future "RJ's" probably won't be it. Too many issues with doing that: The PID, the high CASM all the mainline boys love to remind us of, GG's anti RJ stance, the 'Starbucking' of DAL he's proposing, etc etc etc.

I'd say if anything, he's looking at EMB190 class airplanes to be flown by what used to be (but won't ever be again) mainline, not more RJ's for DCI.

Even if the prostitute carriers agreed to fly them for a box of Rice Crispies and a green card I still don't think GG is gonna buy more RJs. (But hey, it's ok, I'll upgrade faster and get my 1000PIC and then SWA will hire me and yaddayaddayadda........)

CRJ class airplanes don't fit GGs "Pull a Starbuck's" model, and the mainline guys would rather fly EMB190s for USAir/Eagle wages than see them go to DCI.

 

[General Lee]

Vortilon,

My wish is to have the furloughs fly again for a living at a good wage and fly something nice. I also want them to come back as soon as possible. I am not trying to enrage anyone, or to incite a riot.



Palerider,

The others may be correct, the CR7 deal may not be a huge one, but rather the EMB-190s or whatever could be. I don't really know about any of the current negotiations, and a lot of this is pure speculation. You and Bob Arnold don't have to get too upset yet. We have NO IDEA what will happen---but I think Dalpa will not sell our furloughs down the river. FINS is the one who was talking about possible J4J negotiations. The only reason I brought up CR7s is because Delta wanted unlimited 70 seaters in the last proposal, and that is what DCI currently has.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

General,

Don't take offense...I'm on your side on a great many things but I get a little tired of us furloughed guys being used as a wedge.

It is nice to see that at least one of you realizes that "you furloughed guys" have been used as a wedge by your MEC since day one. If that were not the case you would have been welcomed with open arms.

 

[surplus1]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline? Who's to say that they need to be delivered to CMR or ASA? The majority of these airplanes were bought by DAL. They could brought to DAL, or be used to start a new airline.

If the compay should decide to place future RJ's at the "mainline" I don't think many of us would have any problem with you flying them.

Now I have to ask you -- if the company decides to place future RJ's (like the EMB series or more CR7s and 9's) at CMR and ASA, will you feel the same way about our flying them?

 

[wms]

A j4j agreement would likely require a vote by ASA/CA. So in other words, there won't be a j4j if it comes before us. Why lower the bar further? If ML guys are gonna fly RJs, then put some future RJs at ML with a respectable pay scale. Don't start some alter-ego.

 

[surplus1]

Vortilon,

My wish is to have the furloughs fly again for a living at a good wage and fly something nice. I also want them to come back as soon as possible. I am not trying to enrage anyone, or to incite a riot.

General,

I think most people would like to see the furloughees fly again and always have. Your ideas of how that should happen are the fly in the ointment.

We have NO IDEA what will happen---but I think Dalpa will not sell our furloughs down the river.

Some would argue that Dalpa has aready created more than its share of obstacles for your furloughees.

I admire you for thinking that Dalpa will not "sell your furloughs down the river". What we find annoying is the idea that you seem to think that we would sell OUR First Officers down the river in order to give your pilots access to their future vacancies and upgrades. It ain't going to happen.

FINS is the one who was talking about possible J4J negotiations. The only reason I brought up CR7s is because Delta wanted unlimited 70 seaters in the last proposal, and that is what DCI currently has. Bye Bye--General Lee

Delta management will decide if it wants more CR7s or something else and where it would like to put them. Ultimately, Delta management will get what it wants from Dalpa in that respect.

There is however one thing that Dalpa will not get and that is the right to put any of your pilots into the left seat of any airplane on our operating certificate, whether old or "new", ahead of our own First Officers. You will get no super seniority from us.

When it comes to that, none of us give a rat's you know what about what "dalpa" thinks or doesn't think. The ONLY way anything like that could possibly occur is through a direct ratification vote by individual pilots in favor of it, the chances of which are slim to none. Any MEC that attempts to impose that without the consent of the pilots, by ballot, will be tarred and feathered post haste, and properly so.

Whether its your idea, dalpa's idea or alpa's idea, the best thing you can do is forget it and go immediately to "Plan B" 'cause that dog ain't gonna hunt in this field.

Better we work on making the best of a bad situation, for everyone. Of course you do have the option of selling your souls to convince the Company that it should create a new airline for your benefit. I wish you luck with that idea, but my guess is you'd have to give them a lot more than the billion they want now. Better quit while you're ahead.

 

[601Pilot]

CR7 Capt positions at ASA/Comair

General,

If a J4J proposal is made, how are you going to staff them? Probably half of
your furloughees don't have an ATP or the required time to be captains under
121. What are you going to do with them?

 

[acarpe3448]

DLTFurloughed

Half of our pilots don't have the time to upgrade? What have you been smoking? In my new hire class in 2000 every pilot had an ATP! Each pilot also had pleanty of experience to handle a left seat RJ job. I think you DCI pilots need to cool down big time. It is no surprise to me that when Delta is handing out mainline flying to you guys at Comair it is all in the name of good business and screw the Delta furloughed pilots. When someone even mentions the idea of RJ flying with Delta pilots in the left seat, it's a fight to the death to protect DCI F/O's rights to upgrade.

I have been out of the game for some time now. I quit looking on this message board like nearly a year ago because the DCI pilots (Comair) sounded like such huge cry babies. I come back today to see the response of the Wednesday announcement and it is the exact same stupid DCI hates Delta arguments still! Tell me something, in addition to being opposed to a J4J to help furloughed pilots comeback, are you guys still trying to steal a spot on the Delta senority list through the RJDC? Unreal!! Can't you guy's get it through your big heads (yes I mean DCI) as well as mainline, that you all are pilots. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good pilots! I swear my 7 year old has more logical fights with his friends about sharing than I hear on this board.

Hey General! Whats up? Thanks for all the support man! #18 on the SNL and ready to come back!! See ya soon!!!!

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from 601pilot:

"If a J4J proposal is made, how are you going to staff them? Probably half of
your furloughees don't have an ATP or the required time to be captains under
121. What are you going to do with them?"




What kind of idiotic assumption is that????

 

[On Your Six]

I presume that any J4J agreement would be for NEW aircraft as opposed to existing aircraft - is that correct? If that were the case, then none of the DCI FOs would be adversely impacted - the positions would be for supplemental aircraft beyond the existing fleet. That would be the most fair way to do things in my opinion.

At Continental, the flowbacks completely displaced COEX FOs - that would not be a favorable outcome and I hope that it wouldn't happen at ASA/Comair. As far as I know all J4J discussions are premature at the moment - everyone is in LIMBO....

 

[General Lee]

601pilot,
You are probably talking about the ASA and Comair guys who might not have enough time to upgrade. Most, if not all of our pilots and furloughed pilots have the time. ASA supposedly hired a few Peanut Brittle interns with 250 hours and 50 ME, so they might not be ready.

Acarpe,

Good to hear from you and we can't wait for your return. Grinstein said in the Reuters article that he does not expect further pilot furloughs, so hopefully you will come back and stay back--even though the pay will undoubtably be less. You might be able to get a 738 FO slot right off the bat in ATL. The future retirements in the near term will be interesting to say the least. Everyone who did not go in SEP must be smacking their head against a wall.....


Surplus1,

I can see that you feel threatened. I believe the recall will yeild about 30-40 pilots a month, and hopefully most of them will go into mainline aircraft. If we do park airplanes and they are directly replaced by 70 seaters, then those pilots deserve first shot at the replacement aircraft. That may not happen at all, and maybe the 737-200s and 733s will be replaced with future 100 seaters like the Emb 190---and then there wouldn't be a loss of hulls and maybe not pilot job losses. But, if the 70 seaters replace the 737s etc---then we will have a problem. Dalpa knows this, and that is where there could be an alternate plan made to include some 70 seaters into the fold. That would be plan B. I am sure Dalpa has back up plans and will try to negotiate for all circumstances. But, this all could be moot if we can get TBKANE back on the property and have him flying a mainline jet. With the current flood of retirements, he could be back sooner than later.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AviatorTx]

But, if the 70 seaters replace the 737s etc---then we will have a problem. Dalpa knows this, and that is where there could be an alternate plan made to include some 70 seaters into the fold.

If mainline pilots are going to fly 70 seat jets, the planes neet to be on mainline property. Period. I'm sure will agree on this part, but;

If DALALPA allows more 70 seaters to go to ASA, Comair, ect... The "regional" pilots on thoses seniority lists should get first crack at them.

Mainline guys... It's your own darn fault that all the growth is at the regionals. you allowed it through your own generous scope clauses, and the fact that most mainline MEC's have pulled the opportunity ladder up behind them by giving away the said scope. CALALPA is a classic example. Since those darn scabs threw us off the MEC and stopped fighting for a flowthrough, I am longing for the day we start flying 737's at Express. Not going to happen soon, but it's going to happen.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

On Your Six has some good points on this one. I flew with an ex-COEX f/o last weekend and he had some not too good things to say about the CAL blowback deal. New Aircraft that goes to mainline, for mainline should be flown by mainline. DL is the one who assigns the airplanes. If they want more 700's to DCI then DCI should fly them. DL is fully aware of all the guys and gals sitting at home right on down to TBKANE. I would hope they would be taken care of first and foremost. Alot of people seem to be getting pretty worked up here and it is only the first day after the revelation!! Sheesh. I am hoping the long range plan is outlined at the first opportunity for all to see and then make some smart decisions for everyone.

 

[General Lee]

I think most of the new growth will be in mainline, with 100 seaters eventually. Those aircraft will most likely go to mainline---and Grinstein pointed out when asked if DCI would eventually fly 100 seaters---he stated, "I can't see them flying it." He may not be around forever, but Dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed. Some people on this board may think it is "Greedy" for Dalpa to go after some 70 seaters----while those same people think Comair should bid for DL's Md88s or future 100 seaters. I think we should look at who is on the street first. When everyone is back, then there should be some frank discussions.


Bye Bye--General Lee