CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[Bayoupilot]

And by the way, this ALL can be traced back to the spineless pilots of mesa, chawawa, and skywest. Thanx guys and gals. What a bunch of losers.

That's all I got to say about thAT.

They can kiss my arse.

Hey, which was the first airline to use regional jets? Comair!

Or, to put it another way:

Hey, which pilot group was the first to agree to fly jet routes at a greatly reduced wage, routes that once were flown by Delta but became economically unfeasible because another pilot group that was paid much less but were willing to fly thouse routes anyway? That's right, Comair!

So, Afellowaviator, we were just following your lead. Live with THAT, brother!

And hey, you can kiss MY arse anytime.

 

[bvt1151]

Hey Contract,

Let's see who's correct after Comair pilots take a paycut. Comair pilots see the writing on the wall - either you reduce your wages OR more flying will be contracted out to your buddies at lower-cost CHQ (or potentially Mesa or others). You are in denial if you don't see that. The cost-cutting tidal wave is approaching the industry as a whole and Comair/ASA are not immune. I don't know why Comair pilots think they are immune to cost-cutting changes in the industry (do you think you are not a target on the radar? You're wrong so long as Mesa pays its CRJ pilots so much less).... Pure arrogance.

Maybe you like the 8-10 year upgrades? If Comair wants to see any growth, its cost will need to be reduced to more competitive levels - or that growth will go elsewhere... Sad but true...

Certainly there is no writing on the wall, and even if there was, I guarantee you there is absolutely no Comair pilot who sees it. There is no Comair pilot in Cincinnati who is calling for concessions for growth.

Being the self-proclaimed economic genius you are, surely you'd understand that Comair concessions would increase the gap between mainline DCI wages, which just means that much more out of the Delta pilots pocket. Or do you?

There is a major difference between Comair's acquisition of RJ's in 1993 and CHQ's now. Comair acquired RJ's because the Delta pilots decided not to fly anything that small. It was the Delta pilots choice that Comair received RJ's. CHQ and Skywest are not flying aircraft that Delta, Comair, or ASA do not want to fly. They are flying the same sizedaircraft. This alone would be a significant difference Bayoupilot refuses to point out, but when you add in the fact that neither CHQ nor Skywest are ALPA carriers, you have to wonder why mainline ALPA members such as Heavy and FDJ defend their status. Not only are you outsourcing jobs from the Delta family, but you're giving them to pilots who are not even a part of your union.

Explain to me your reasoning again?

 

[drag]

The undercutters are being undercut. So goes the game. I predict that many RJP's will be following ACA/FLYI path. This will be followed by some bankruptcies and liquidations. The survivors will a few RJP's that work for gutter wages/benies. The bottom line is w/ high fuel prices, high load factors, and super low fares, their isn't any room for 50 seat jets. CASM is way too high. 70-110 seat effecient jets are the future. These will be flown at mainline w/ marginal benefits... a "C" scale. 50 seaters will sit in the desert w/ old dc10's and 727s. Take a look at Bombardiers stock, credit, and future growth potential. The 50 seater is on the way out.

 

[Heavy Set]

Certainly there is no writing on the wall, and even if there was, I guarantee you there is absolutely no Comair pilot who sees it. There is no Comair pilot in Cincinnati who is calling for concessions for growth.

Being the self-proclaimed economic genius you are, surely you'd understand that Comair concessions would increase the gap between mainline DCI wages, which just means that much more out of the Delta pilots pocket. Or do you?

There is a major difference between Comair's acquisition of RJ's in 1993 and CHQ's now. Comair acquired RJ's because the Delta pilots decided not to fly anything that small. It was the Delta pilots choice that Comair received RJ's. CHQ and Skywest are not flying aircraft that Delta, Comair, or ASA do not want to fly. They are flying the same sizedaircraft. This alone would be a significant difference Bayoupilot refuses to point out, but when you add in the fact that neither CHQ nor Skywest are ALPA carriers, you have to wonder why mainline ALPA members such as Heavy and FDJ defend their status. Not only are you outsourcing jobs from the Delta family, but you're giving them to pilots who are not even a part of your union.

Explain to me your reasoning again?

First of all, as I have stated numerous times - I am not a Delta pilot and I have no relation whatsoever to Delta Airlines. I know a number of Delta pilots - that's all.

Second, if you think that your high regional wages (relative to all other regional wage levels - go to airlinepilotpay.com and take a look at how much higher your wages are vs. Eagle and CHQ) will go unscathed in this cost-cutting environment then you are full of it. Do you think Delta/Comair management will allow you to continue with the highest regional wages when they are in cost cutting mode? They are not dumb enough to leave money on the table - and that's a FACT Jack. No economics degree needed. Sure, decreasing your wages won't contribute hundreds of millions per year, but it will be a decent amount (and cumulative) and you can bet that management will get the wage cuts NOW when it has the opportunity - they won't wait for another window of opportunity. Did you read Randy's letter? Do you get the implicit message? Do you want any growth or do you want to give it away to CHQ or Skywest? DAL pilots have no say in the outsourcing of jobs outside of ALPA.

Go read Randy's letter again and take a peak into the future - cost cuts are on the way and don't blame it on the DAL mainline pilots who have nothing to do with it... You are a victim of your own contractual success - you are an expensive target in a low-cost industry... No economics degree needed to understand that.

 

[CRJ puppy]

As a member of the Comair family, I can assure you that as was previously stated, NO Comair pilot will accept a wage cut for growth. Anyone who thinks otherwise does NOT know or understand the Comair pilot group. We are all quite happy where we are or we wouldn't be here. We understand that upgrade times are getting longer. We accept that fact. You don't have to believe or accept that, it's just the fact.

 

[contract2002]

Hey Contract,

Let's see who's correct after Comair pilots take a paycut.

This will be the self-fulfilling prophecy of the new millenium. If I keep having to hear about Comair's paycuts I am going to puke.

I am not denying that there are undercutters out there, but I am sick of hearing people say that Comair will take concessions with out any FINANCIAL DATA to back it up.

Do you think that DAL will be able to go to the judge and say, "yes, that is correct and I know we're hiring 1000+ pilots back, but we can't afford to pay Comair pilots so we need the chap 11. protection..."

wow.

You are the blind one if you see Comair concessions in the future.

 

[91100 100 set]

I didn't bother to read the pissing back and forth on the last three pages, but I will say this. As a former ALG pilot, I caution the Comair pilots. ALG was an expensive Wo'd, just like Comair is now. I am behind you, but I caution you to look into the recent past and examine what happened to your peers at ALG and PDT.

 

[bvt1151]

The undercutters are being undercut.

Comair has never undercut anyone in similar aircraft. It was impossible since Comair was the first US carrier to operate a 50-seat regional jet. Comair has always set their wages higher than other carriers with similar aircraft. Delta has no similar aircraft...their own fault.

CHQ, however has come after CMR and ASA with nothing more than lower wages in similar aircraft. This is the epitome of an undercut. What is even more sickening is the Delta pilot who says CHQ deserves the flying because they're paid less...and a non-ALPA carrier!!! If that were true, Delta would not employ any of their own pilots.

Fortunately there are plenty of analysts who agree that Comair still has the lowest costs in the DCI family, even with the highest pay. I'll believe Aviation Week over FDJ any day.

 

[Caveman]

There is no way Comair pilots will be convinced to take a VOLUNTARY pay cut based on the current financial condition of this company. The key word is voluntary. We will not trade dollars for growth. A BK judge may force a pay cut on us, but we have no control over that. If and when the company ever proves that a pay cut is necessary to remain solvent then we'll talk. There is NO CHANCE that we'll accept concessions just to be 'competitive' so Randy can get a bigger bonus. Anybody that believes otherwise is seriously misjudging the character and resolve of the Comair pilots.

 

[General Lee]

I was not surprised by Randy's letter, it is a classic move. They want to decrease costs everywhere, and their bonuses depend on it. They have the potential growth carrot out in front of you, and you guys will either take it and grow(possibly), or make your same wages and not grow(unless we go Chap 11). One thing you need to look at is the possibility of J4J with the Delta furloughs---they could give new 70 seaters to Delta pilots, and then still take your cash and grow you slowly. If you are thinking that way, then I don't blame you for NOT wanting to take cuts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bako Cap]

I wouldn't worry about Skywest and CHQ too much. I'd really focus on the pilot sitting shotgun next to you in the cockpit. Most I fly with still don't understand that they will be at a regional for a LONG time. I didn't think I'd still be here. They have heard so much "the industry is going to turn around soon, the majors will recall and hire in massive numbers." "You need to get your 1000 PIC now no matter what (even if it means sitting on reserve for a couple of years." The only way to upgrade in this stagnent industry is to expand the fleet. The only way Delta/DCI will allow expansion is with concessions. Concessions to an FO is still a hefty pay raise if there is an upgrade possiblity. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, reserve captains want to get off reserve and need folks below them to get a flying line.

Focus inward not outward on your problems.

I hope I'm wrong because Comair has a fairly unified group (per last vote.) But, the world has changed since 2001.

 

[BellyFlyer]

I have to disagree with some that say NO Comair pilot would vote to take concessions for growth. I just flew with a capt that was adamant that we should take the first opportunity to take concessions if it means growth. I was shocked!

This capt's stance was that the race to the bottom is full on, and we need to win growth any way we can to avoid a J4J situation and super-seniority. And this is coming from a 10+ year capt that makes 100k a year with the schedule he likes. I didn't know what to make of it. I just hope we all have jobs this time next year.

 

[MAX ZORIN]

Originally posted by AFELLOWAVIATOR:

"I have been at Comair 10 years and I will go some where else if I have to."

Hey prick, where could you possibly go in this industry? Do you think that you could hide that disgusting look on your face through an entire interview? You are the most miserable person in all of aviation.

 

[Russ]

Swallowing aviator

Long before many of our guys leaned to become spineless as you like to say you were still paying Comair for your job.
You know what its like to have original sin on your hands, or more like your knees and lips.

When some aviation historian writes his book about the downfall of aviation, PFT clowns like yourself will have your very own chapter. The first chapter, that outlines the fall, and its all downhill from there.

 

[N813CA]

First of all, if any pilot agreed to a pay cut when the company is making $40+ million a quarter is out of there mind, and also if you look at our hour rates compared to skywest, Horizon, ASA. It is only a couple of dollars. Also lets don't foget the DCI is almost to its max RJ's unless the scope gets releaved. So unless that doesn't happen there is no reason for Comair Pilots to take a pay cut. DCI is maxed out.

 

[Heavy Set]

First of all, if any pilot agreed to a pay cut when the company is making $40+ million a quarter is out of there mind, and also if you look at our hour rates compared to skywest, Horizon, ASA. It is only a couple of dollars. Also lets don't foget the DCI is almost to its max RJ's unless the scope gets releaved. So unless that doesn't happen there is no reason for Comair Pilots to take a pay cut. DCI is maxed out.

Comair is owned by a near-bankrupt company looking to cut costs in a big way. Any questions?????

 

[CheapFlyer]

Comair is owned by a near-bankrupt company looking to cut costs in a big way. Any questions?????

Yeah. Have the Delta pilots taken a pay cut? How long has it been since they have been asked? How do you think management is going to get these paycuts from the Comair pilots, force them? Why do you seem to think you know everything about everybody?

 

[miles otoole]

Yeah. Have the Delta pilots taken a pay cut? How long has it been since they have been asked? How do you think management is going to get these paycuts from the Comair pilots, force them? Why do you seem to think you know everything about everybody?

My thinking as well. As soon as Comair officially asks for money, they are then on the block. I'd say it'll take a couple of years before they are forced.

 

[Heavy Set]

Yeah. Have the Delta pilots taken a pay cut? How long has it been since they have been asked? How do you think management is going to get these paycuts from the Comair pilots, force them? Why do you seem to think you know everything about everybody?

Hey, lighten up. The point is that DAL's management is blood-thirsty at the moment. Did you not read Randy's letter? Sure, I don't know what will happen in the end. But, I know that management would likely not let this "window of opportunity" shut without extracting as much as they could out of all constituencies. Do you think they want to reopen pilot talks with Comair when DAL is eventually restructured a few years from now - or would they rather make changes now when the situation looks bleak? It's common sense - management will want to act now. Nobody wants to consider it, but that's reality. Just read Randy's letter between the lines - you'll understand. Nobody here supports more cuts - it's just the reality of the situation. I am not pro-management by any means (the opposite).

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Hey, lighten up. The point is that DAL's management is blood-thirsty at the moment. Did you not read Randy's letter? Sure, I don't know what will happen in the end. But, I know that management would likely not let this "window of opportunity" shut without extracting as much as they could out of all constituencies. Do you think they want to reopen pilot talks with Comair when DAL is eventually restructured a few years from now - or would they rather make changes now when the situation looks bleak? It's common sense - management will want to act now. Nobody wants to consider it, but that's reality. Just read Randy's letter between the lines - you'll understand. Nobody here supports more cuts - it's just the reality of the situation. I am not pro-management by any means (the opposite).

They can crap in one hand and "want" in the other and see which one fills up first!

It's not that the 2-5 dollars an hour paycut to bring us inline with our peers would make that big of a difference in our lifestyles. It's a matter of principle!
How far are we willing to let them set us back? I'm guessing that the majority who would vote on such a thing would say not one inch! What is the BK judge going to do to us? Take away our pensions? Limit our access to the snack mix in the galley?

 

[drag]

Perhaps the best course of action for DAL is to spin-off CMR/ASA. DAL management could then walk away from all the RJ labor issues. DAL may then offer bids to RJP's on a take it or leave it basis....much like UAL did w/ ACA. There are so many RJ's floating around the system, that I believe this may happen.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

never mind.

 

[CheapFlyer]

Perhaps the best course of action for DAL is to spin-off CMR/ASA. DAL management could then walk away from all the RJ labor issues.

RJ labor issues??? You think Delta should sell their entire RJ network because Comair pilots make $5 more an hour than MESA and CHQ?!?

-CF

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

deleted

 

[CF34-3B1]

Perhaps the best course of action for DAL is to spin-off CMR/ASA. DAL management could then walk away from all the RJ labor issues. DAL may then offer bids to RJP's on a take it or leave it basis....much like UAL did w/ ACA. There are so many RJ's floating around the system, that I believe this may happen.

Yeah, they can even put furloughed guys in em for $58/hr like USAirways.

Now that would certainly be defending the profession.

 

[bvt1151]

One thing is for certain. Comair could become the next ALG or Piedmont just because their pilots are the best paid. There is no other reason.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Perhaps the best course of action for DAL is to spin-off CMR/ASA. DAL management could then walk away from all the RJ labor issues. .... I believe this may happen.

Grinstein says, why sell the only profitable part of the Company? Unless you think you will retire before Delta ceases operations, you might want Delta to keep their operations on the field overlooked by the Plantation house in Atlanta.

The "RJ Labor Issues" were created by your MEC selling scope and ALPA selling out members at "non-preferred" airlines. Delta selling Comair will not fix the problems created by the Delta MEC and ALPA.

If Delta were to make decisions based purely on money, the best they could do is sell mainline and bid out that flying. In fact, have you looked at the Delta route map compared to the "SkyTeam" route structure?

If I were you, I would stop worrying about who is flying RJ's from CVG to CHA and start worrying about pilots flying 777's and A340's from ATL to CDG. But I do understand that your MEC has proposed flying RJ's for second year rates - as long as you are on the bottom that is fine with me.

~~~^~~~

 

[drag]

RJ labor issues??? You think Delta should sell their entire RJ network because Comair pilots make $5 more an hour than MESA and CHQ?!?

What makes you think it's about just the pilots. CMR is also made up of inflight, mx, grd service, and management. This is scattered throughout the whole system. Lets not forget the benies/401k that goes w/ this labor. These costs are paid by DAL. If these could be eliminated through a spin-off it would decrease the liability to DAL. CMR/ASA would then assume these responsibilities like ay other company. DAL would now have the option of bidding contracts to more RJP's....ie CHQ/Mesa/Great Lakes/Trans States etc. If CMR/ASA got their costs low enough perhaps DAL would cut a contract w/ CMR and/or ASA.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,


How do you or Benidict Bob Arnold know what our MEC has proposed? I guess Skip Barnet calls you up at night and tells you everything. I bet he doesn't know what is going on either. Is he in the negotiating room also? If there is any J4J opportunity for our furloughs, it better be direct entry Captain on any new CR7s. Closer to USAir's deal, rather than UAL's. Dalpa knows this, too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

What makes you think it's about just the pilots. CMR is also made up of inflight, mx, grd service, and management. This is scattered throughout the whole system. Lets not forget the benies/401k that goes w/ this labor. These costs are paid by DAL. If these could be eliminated through a spin-off it would decrease the liability to DAL. CMR/ASA would then assume these responsibilities like ay other company. DAL would now have the option of bidding contracts to more RJP's....ie CHQ/Mesa/Great Lakes/Trans States etc. If CMR/ASA got their costs low enough perhaps DAL would cut a contract w/ CMR and/or ASA.

The pilot costs are the only thing that are higher than peer airlines. Of course this means little when you find that Comair has the lowest total costs in the DCI network. This means they are the cheapest option to DCI. This also means that Delta's preferance is to use several carriers to do the same job is based mostly on pilot costs, and more specifically due to the strike 2001.

Funny how the airlines backing Comair during 2001 are the first to advertise lower pilot costs to sweep in underneath and take flying in same-sized aircraft. I'm amazed at the hypocricy of the industry.

General, I think the negotiations are going way past the CR7's. Look more towards the EMB series and even MD-80's. That's where the battlefield seems to be forming.