CMR on the move

[sleeve]

DOH,


I get what your saying..I'm not saying we jump right into this and sign our names in blood...The things that are most important...(new hire pay, what if we don't get very many planes very fast, or none at all etc...) those are the things that we have to make very clear with any opening of the contract..the wording has to be right and any loopholes that managment can jump through have to be closed up...but there are guys nitpicking every little thing and trying to negotiate for different things that don't pertain to the issue at hand.

I feel if we don't atleast make a very good attempt at this, I'll be an FO here for 10 years anyway...So I am willing to give a little, I don't think I'll miss the 150 dollars it adds up to.. There are already guys ,who haven't seen the proposal, saying heii no...merely for the fact they don't trust anyone, they think we'll be ok, or they don't care because they are where they want to be.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Don"t blow it!

There are limits on what we are willing to negotiate, but if we are to have any hope for the future of our profession, we need these airframes on our property (or ASA's property) and NOT the contract carrier whores who cheerfully underbid us by 10-45%. Immagine being in negotiations in 2006 (or 2007, will it really matter?) with CHQ taking delivery of their 100th DCI 70 seater at our sub 40 seat pay rates.

That is exactly what will happen! Remember Mesa picked up the 25-75 seaters from U S Air when U's MEC was upholding the industry due to aircraft weight and not seats? Mesa quickly scarfed up those 75 seaters and is flying them for U while their pilots who were supposed to fly them lost out. Yep, they showed management alright! I think it is much wiser to get the airframes on the property then work on QOL issues and money. This way they can't be dangled at you during your next negotiations. Some of the chest thumpers on here need to figure out their priorities in regards to what is easily doable with minimal expediture and what is not easily doable with increased expenditure.

I personally think that FB is trying to be honest. He did what Skip should have done a long time ago. He has not asked for any reduction in pay. That is NOT a consesseion. 35 airframes means 175 upgrades and 175 FO's moving up or getting off of reserves. Than is QOL right there. Big time pay increase from FO to Cpt, Cpt's getting better lines, etc.. Holding out for roughly 1000 dollars per year raises in lue of this needed growth is assenine at best. Make sure the contract is worded so there can not be any way that a partial delivery will fullfill the contract. All or back to original pay schedules.

I also am wondering about ASA's hiring increasing to 50 month in March time frame. I know we don't need that many for the aircraft we have scheduled, so what gives? I have been told that Delta wanted to put all of the 70's under one roof. Possibly, Comair could get all E-170's for their 70 seaters and ASA pick up Comairs CL-700's. Who knows, all I know is that airframe increases DO increase QOL and Pay. Get those first then worry about the dollar and hour raise.

I also think this is a positive thing for ASA as it keeps Comair at their present "leading industry rates". This means that Delta possibly wont go after wage decreases which helps ASA in negotiations. We now have a firm line to negotiate to, approved by JG. The only problem that I can see with the negotiations is that our current CASM is slightly higher than Comairs which might make it difficult for any real wage increases. Aircraft growth seems to be the best way for now.

 

[Flying Horses]

Taking a pay freeze (aka concession) would be a dangerous thing. Comair's "industry-leading" contract would not be one (at least for pay rates) in 2 1/2 years when Comair can start negotiating. Comair's pay then will be right at the level of virtually all other regional carriers.

Then, when Comair starts to work on their new contract, the negotiation of pay rates will then start at these lower (frozen) pay scales, instead of what they would be if there were normal annual and longevity raises. Comair will cease to be the highest paid regional, and thus "lower the bar" for everyone elses negotiating.

To put this in perspective, let's take a 7-year 50 seat CHQ and Comair captain. Now, the CHQ captain gets $67/hour, while the Comair captain gets $72/hour. 2 1/2 years go by, the CHQ captain is getting $78/hour (with annual DOS and longevity increases), while the Comair captain is still getting $72/hour. This also works with 70 seat pay: now $70/hour vs. $80/hour ... in 2 1/2 years, $82/hour vs. $80/hour.

Thus, in the middle of 2007, when Comair starts negotiating, management will say, 10 year captains are now making $72/hour and $80/hour for 50 seats and 70 seats, respectively, and offer probably a 2-3% raise from those rates. The final negotiated pay rates will never even equal what Comair pilots would have been making if a pay freeze were never established. And Comair will then be just an average-paid regional carrier.

 

[InclusiveScope]

There are limits on what we are willing to negotiate, but if we are to have any hope for the future of our profession, we need these airframes on our property (or ASA's property) and NOT the contract carrier whores who cheerfully underbid us by 10-45%. Immagine being in negotiations in 2006 (or 2007, will it really matter?) with CHQ taking delivery of their 100th DCI 70 seater at our sub 40 seat pay rates.

That is exactly what will happen! Remember Mesa picked up the 25-75 seaters from U S Air when U's MEC was upholding the industry due to aircraft weight and not seats? Mesa quickly scarfed up those 75 seaters and is flying them for U while their pilots who were supposed to fly them lost out. Yep, they showed management alright! I think it is much wiser to get the airframes on the property then work on QOL issues and money. This way they can't be dangled at you during your next negotiations. Some of the chest thumpers on here need to figure out their priorities in regards to what is easily doable with minimal expediture and what is not easily doable with increased expenditure.

I personally think that FB is trying to be honest. He did what Skip should have done a long time ago. He has not asked for any reduction in pay. That is NOT a consesseion. 35 airframes means 175 upgrades and 175 FO's moving up or getting off of reserves. Than is QOL right there. Big time pay increase from FO to Cpt, Cpt's getting better lines, etc.. Holding out for roughly 1000 dollars per year raises in lue of this needed growth is assenine at best. Make sure the contract is worded so there can not be any way that a partial delivery will fullfill the contract. All or back to original pay schedules.

I also am wondering about ASA's hiring increasing to 50 month in March time frame. I know we don't need that many for the aircraft we have scheduled, so what gives? I have been told that Delta wanted to put all of the 70's under one roof. Possibly, Comair could get all E-170's for their 70 seaters and ASA pick up Comairs CL-700's. Who knows, all I know is that airframe increases DO increase QOL and Pay. Get those first then worry about the dollar and hour raise.

I also think this is a positive thing for ASA as it keeps Comair at their present "leading industry rates". This means that Delta possibly wont go after wage decreases which helps ASA in negotiations. We now have a firm line to negotiate to, approved by JG. The only problem that I can see with the negotiations is that our current CASM is slightly higher than Comairs which might make it difficult for any real wage increases. Aircraft growth seems to be the best way for now.

Well said Tim! I agree.

IMO, management has won this round. We allowed ourselves to compete with each other rather than bargain collectively. We need to "regain the flying" and then try to move the bar forward.

Allowing the competion to happen, while standing on the sidelines cursing it, is not a solution. It is time for some new thinking, not more useless sticker slogans.

Competion is a bitch - we must deal with it!

 

[bvt1151]

My hat is off to both Tim and Inclusive. You first have to gain control of the assets, and then negotiate your future. Right now there is no real control of the assets.

 

[jetflyer]

I'm a middle of the pack F.O. at Comair and think we should pass this, but has anybody thought about what would happen if:

THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS SAY NO?


Most of the flight attendants I've talked to think this is a bad deal for them. So the pilots vote yes but the flight attendants vote NO. According to the memo the deal would be off.

My opinion is that Fred Buttrell needs to spend more time talking to the flight attendants, because I think the pilots are sold as far as the INFORMATION we've received so far. Granted if the details suck no one will go for it, but so far it looks pretty good.

Jet

 

[doh]

Okay Sleeve,

As long as we agree to "trust but verify" ( the Reagan doctrine lives!) I say keep negotiating too. Let's make sure the deal does the most good for us that is possible!

 

[Birddog]

I think there are way too many unanswered questions to even contemplate an intelligent decision on this. For example, what about retirement and 401k vesting and contribution? Is that frozen as well? What about the 30 month seat lock? To whom and how does that apply. If an FO upgrades during the pay freeze, what happens to thier pay rate? Does it stay as the frozen FO rate, or does it move to the Captain rate? If moves, does it go to your current year of service or the year you are frozen at? At what rate are the aircraft going to be delivered? I don't want the first one to arrive, trigger the pay freeze, then wait six months for the next aircraft. What guaratee do we have that this will be a one time deal and FB won't come back in 6 or 12 months looking for an extention? How do we know that we are not being set up for concessions to keep these shiny new airplanes?

Way too many questions and not enough answers. Give me the details. I am an FO, but without some answers, I will vote it down and encourage everyone I come across to do the same.

 

[chperplt]

Everyone needs to relax a bit... The union is meeting with Freddy boom boom on Tuesday and Wednesday. I'm sure we'll have a much clearer picture soon after.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

FWIW, I thought I read that the 10 CRJ200's would be ex-Indy Air planes, so I would gather those would/could come pretty quick, seeing as Indy is having a fire sale on planes. Didn't SkyWest get like 4 used for the price of 2 new or something like that?

 

[bvt1151]

FWIW, I thought I read that the 10 CRJ200's would be ex-Indy Air planes, so I would gather those would/could come pretty quick, seeing as Indy is having a fire sale on planes. Didn't SkyWest get like 4 used for the price of 2 new or something like that?

Fred said plan on 2 per month for 5 months.

 

[embraerdriver]

CMR on the move? roflmao!!

All the best !

 

[N2264J]

>>>Personally, I wouldn't want to sign on to a pay freeze until we all understand where the Delta furloughees fit into this deal.<<<

At the bottom of our list, if they choose to take the interview and if Comair management decides to hire them, unless we choose to modify our contract to allow otherwise (not even mentioned, much less in relation to this latest proposal)...Carpe Diem.

That's not quite how it worked out at PSA and the fact that it wasn't mentioned is no less cause for concern. It isn't growth if Comair pilots aren't flying the planes.

 

[bvt1151]

DAL's new agreement says "Preferential Hiring," not jets for jobs. That still equals growth for Comair pilots.

 

[N2264J]

DAL's new agreement says "Preferential Hiring," not jets for jobs. That still equals growth for Comair pilots.

Not necessarily. At PSA, the contract was unilaterally modified by the mainline union and management after the PSA pilots signed off on it.

In LOA 46, special employment rights for Delta furloughees is a precondition for 70 seat growth. That's Jets for Jobs. To date, ALPA has refused to release the details of their "preferential hiring" protocol eluded to in LOA 46. Like you, our MEC believes it to be "hired at the bottom of the list" but they haven't seen anything in writing yet.

Exercise extreme caution.