CitationAir How Much Longer

[imacdog]

None of the outcomes in your examples were influenced by having pay cuts or not.

How about USA Jet? When all the Falcon pilots were fired, why didn't they just get pay cuts? Why didn't you do that to keep your pilots employed?

 

[pilotyip]

None of the outcomes in your examples were influenced by having pay cuts or not.

How about USA Jet? When all the Falcon pilots were fired, why didn't they just get pay cuts? Why didn't you do that to keep your pilots employed?

they did? got the biggest pay cut you can take. They DA-20 went away, never going to fly them again until they decided to fly them again

 

[imacdog]

So what you're saying is, the decrease in demand was responsible for furloughing pilots. That's pretty much what we've been telling you. Either there is a need for pilots or there isn't; your BS line about the NJA furloughed pilots being let go because the rest wouldn't take a pay cut was, well, BS. I guess being in management, BS is just your style YIP.

 

[Waldom]

From strickly a stick and rudder perspective, yes flying wealthy people (or any people for that matter) trains one to fly "better" than flying boxes....If you have experience flying people, especially wealthy, you know not to bank 45 degrees to final, not to descend at 4000 ft/m.. Not to slam on the brakes and TRs.

I didn't do that when I flew boxes, and the majority of people I flew with didn't either.

With radial engines, or with several million dollars worth of horse flesh standing in stalls unrestrained in the back, that would have been frowned upon.

 

[G4dude]

Yeah...backbones are hard to come by these days.

You are missing the point. I shouldn't HAVE to fear harassment, Nacho. Then I would be pleased to post on a non anonymous board. Me and my friends at the former NJI. Don't you get it?

 

[Mungusaurus]

Thread hijack........ Complete!

 

[jehtplane]

Thread hijack........ Complete!

Isn't that the truth, unreal!

 

[wacoflyr]

Good post, actually. However, I am against many things the union does precisely because I worry a LOT about the junior guys. I have been laid off 11 times, and don't want anybody to go through that. I want them to not lose their jobs. Our junior people are really good pilots, good people, and deserve a happy career. I fear an activist union will endanger that. You might disagree with my conclusions, but never doubt my feelings about my colleagues.

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you think the 'junior people' support the union? Not just at your old geewhiz part of the company, but at NetJets at large.

2. Can you honestly say that the Netjets union(sorry, acronym escapes me at the moment) is likely to cause layoffs, such as those clearly caused by management mistakes?

3. Have you made a good faith effort to put forward your arguments, in person, with the union?

Honest answers, please.

Wacoflyr

 

[The Dude Abides]

......again common sense!

Do you read what you post before you hit send?

 

[The Dude Abides]

The clue is the timing of the announcement.

No it's not.

 

[NachoMamma]

You are missing the point. I shouldn't HAVE to fear harassment, Nacho. Then I would be pleased to post on a non anonymous board. Me and my friends at the former NJI. Don't you get it?

Oh I get it...you fear the repercussions of your statements so you hide behind an anonymous name where it's safe. No surprise There...That's what cowards do. That's not a personal attack as much as a sad observation of the facts. That's just the kind of person you are. You should be proud.

 

[G4dude]

Oh I get it...you fear the repercussions of your statements so you hide behind an anonymous name where it's safe. No surprise There...That's what cowards do. That's not a personal attack as much as a sad observation of the facts. That's just the kind of person you are. You should be proud.

You STILL don't get it. If you candidly state your opinions, you don't HAVE to fear harassment, because people like me would never behave that way. I have to worry about that because people like you DO behave that way. I would NEVER mistreat a pro union poster, no matter how much I disagree with his actions. You would harass me til the cows come home, driving me off the board and circulating my name among the other union zealots for further mistreatment. Can't you see the difference? I should not HAVE to not be a "coward." You never run that risk, because people like me behave in an adult manner.

 

[NachoMamma]

I would NEVER mistreat a pro union poster, no matter how much I disagree with his actions.

And proudly so, Praetorian. I think you union goons are morons.

If you freaking morons ever strike NJA, I will definitely scab.

I should not HAVE to not be a "coward."

Yet somehow you still are.

You never run that risk, because people like me behave in an adult manner.

Obviously

 

[G4dude]

Yet somehow you still are.


Obviously

None of my statements harass or intimidate or threaten anybody. You can't possibly be this stupid.

 

[G4dude]

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you think the 'junior people' support the union? Not just at your old geewhiz part of the company, but at NetJets at large.

2. Can you honestly say that the Netjets union(sorry, acronym escapes me at the moment) is likely to cause layoffs, such as those clearly caused by management mistakes?

3. Have you made a good faith effort to put forward your arguments, in person, with the union?

Honest answers, please.

Wacoflyr

Answers:
1. yes. The people at the former NJI, regardless of seniority, seem to not be in favor of the union. I could be wrong about this, but very few here seems to back them, even the two (very nice) liberals I fly with. Several of the A guys who have come over here do back the union, but don't seem to be particular fans of Luthi.
2. no. I don't believe ASAP causes layoffs. I think ASAP can cause loss of profitability in the long run, however.
3. no. Interesting idea, though. But my arguments are against the very idea of a union, so I am not sure how my opinions on that subject would impress the union folks. This union, ASAP, seems to be pretty well behaved so far.

 

[BentOver]

Answers:
3. no. Interesting idea, though. But my arguments are against the very idea of a union, so I am not sure how my opinions on that subject would impress the union folks. This union, ASAP, seems to be pretty well behaved so far.

So pretty much your saying your a pu$$y who is afraid to voice his concerns in a non-anonymuous forum? It's ok to have different views, or to even be a sarcastic prick like myself, but atleast man up. all you talk about is how afraid you are to voice concerns because you may have to fly with various people someday....

Be a man... Stop hiding behind this fear of reprisal from more senior "A" guys..

 

[pilotyip]

Be a man... Stop hiding behind this fear of reprisal from more senior "A" guys..

yea be a man, give us your name, airport you fly out of, and the company where you work. Why be like almost every poster on this site?

BTW: Randy KYIP, JUS, as if this could be unknown to anyone

 

[NachoMamma]

You can't possibly be this stupid.

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

 

[rigger]

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

I don't believe he called you a name but stated a question posed as fact.....

 

[BentOver]

yea be a man, give us your name, airport you fly out of, and the company where you work. Why be like almost every poster on this site?

BTW: Randy KYIP, JUS, as if this could be unknown to anyone

I don't care who ya are or what podunk company you work for.... I don't hide from my fellow pilots (not fellow Flight Info goons).. If I have a problem with a Union decision I don't hide from my other Union brothers for fear of flying with someone more senior who holds a different opinion.

If I had msg board access (not the watered down version the furloughees get) I would not be afraid to voice my opinion. I voiced my opinioned about IBB (I was a yes voter), voiced my opinion against those who said your just "paying your dues with the furlough" or "you weren't supposed to be hired anyway so why complain?"

But G4 fails to man up within the ranks of OUR Union... He chooses to ONLY come here to do so.. FI is fine to vent, but it is sad when someone won't show himself in a public forum (our public forum which you are not a part of BTW), only bash the system in anonymity.

If I had a need or reason to give you my full name, rank and serial number I would. But I don't care who you are. Don't care if you knew who I was. I'll never cross paths with you, never work in YIP under your direction, and frankly don't care what your opinion is. You work at neither CS, NJA, or any other fractional. Your claim to fame is some ALPA cargo outfit that you got screwed from back 20+ years ago. It has no bearing on what is going on with CS, NJA, Flex, FOPS or AVANT

 

[RCR5]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2181357#post2181357

Post #162

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2211923#post2211923

Post #53

"How bout them apples?"

What do all the pro union Lemmings that were spouting off in these other threads have to say now?

Now what do we do....other than keep paying our dues.....lol? Did you listen? Do you have a plan B or C? The day is here.

 

[pilotyip]

(our public forum which you are not a part of BTW)

It is a public form, if you don't want the public go private. Workd rather nicely. BTW ALPA was over30 years ago , IBT only a little over 10 years ago.

 

[G4dude]

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

 

[G4dude]

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

I am very proud that those who disagree with me do not have to worry about being put on a list for the rest of their career. Healthy disagreement is good. Coercion and intimidation are not.

 

[realityman]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

Can you please point to me where this has EVER happened in our union?

Yes, yes, I'm sure it's happened at other unions. All the more reason why i keep telling folks such as yourself to go back and learn the history of our union, why it came to be, how it came to be, and what it has and has not done.

We've had some pilots do some stupid things, but those things you listed aren't them.

Despite what you may see on our own boards, I've never seen anyone be anything less than civil when discussing these things in person.

Don't buy into the stories and rumors. After all, prior to the integration I used to hear stories of NJI pilots who refused to share hotel/FBO vans with NJA crews. Are they true? And even if they are, should that mean I should paint all NJI pilots as stuck-up jerks?

 

[imacdog]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2181357#post2181357

Post #162

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2211923#post2211923

Post #53

"How bout them apples?"

What do all the pro union Lemmings that were spouting off in these other threads have to say now?

Now what do we do....other than keep paying our dues.....lol? Did you listen? Do you have a plan B or C? The day is here.

Is your union not working on a severance package for the soon to be furloughed pilots? At NJA the furloughed pilots got an additional two months of full pay and benefits after the furlough date. There's no way we would have gotten that much had we been non-union. Also, if you decide to move on to an airline, you may have a tough time if you're not ready to accept unionization as a part of the profession.

 

[7777]

Would they need to be working on a severance package if they were not on the property? All my friends working their have told me.....no.

 

[imacdog]

Would they need to be working on a severance package if they were not on the property? All my friends working their have told me.....no.

I'd think anyone who puts a minimal amount of rational thought would realize that if companies like NetJets, Flight Options, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, Continental Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the list goes on, can survive the pilots being in a union, and Citation Air couldn't, then Citation Air was in much worse shape than anyone gave them credit for.

 

[G4dude]

Can you please point to me where this has EVER happened in our union?

Yes, yes, I'm sure it's happened at other unions. All the more reason why i keep telling folks such as yourself to go back and learn the history of our union, why it came to be, how it came to be, and what it has and has not done.

We've had some pilots do some stupid things, but those things you listed aren't them.

Despite what you may see on our own boards, I've never seen anyone be anything less than civil when discussing these things in person.

Don't buy into the stories and rumors. After all, prior to the integration I used to hear stories of NJI pilots who refused to share hotel/FBO vans with NJA crews. Are they true? And even if they are, should that mean I should paint all NJI pilots as stuck-up jerks?

Excellent post, thanks! First, I have never heard of an NJI crew behaving that way, and if they did, shame on them. I do know one captain who was/is capable of doing something like that, but he is a problem child, an eccentric crank.
I agree with you about NJA's union. They have behaved fine, although some guys can be rather aggressive on the union board, which is why I post here. Overall, I am impressed with NJASAP, compared to what I saw at Eastern Airlines and other places.
By the way, when I get overheated and use the word "moron" and "union crazies", I am referring to strikers who would harass me if I crossed the picket line, or some of the FEW really hard core union guys I have met over the last few years here. But generally, I am having to somewhat revise my anti union feelings, as they relate to NJA's. So far, at least. Remember, I get really worried very easily because I have had such a terrible job history, with 11 companies going out of business on me, which makes me kinda paranoid about ANYTHING that might reduce my company's profits. Being a Capitalist Pig doesn't help either.

 

[PCL_128]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals.

What a joke! Many pilots have lost their jobs because they were too vocal on union matters. If anyone has to fear reprisals, it's the die-hard union supporters, not the scab wannabes.