CitationAir How Much Longer

[jonjuan]

However, far and away, the best pilots are those who've cut their teeth at the hands of the Mighty Beech 1900(C or D). The FMS can be figured out sooner or later, but the Beech'll teach you how to fly. imp:

So the bestest pilot are Mesa trained.

 

[727C47]

From strickly a stick and rudder perspective, yes flying wealthy people (or any people for that matter) trains one to fly "better" than flying boxes....If you have experience flying people, especially wealthy, you know not to bank 45 degrees to final, not to descend at 4000 ft/m.. Not to slam on the brakes and TR's...

We have people at our place with only BE99 cargo time... Our non pilot co-workers can tell the difference of experience.

Nothing against only having box flying experience, but I think flying peole trains you to be smoother. (Not a better pilot operational/standard wise)

get over yourself ,i'm one of the 495,and the best sticks i have seen are the freightdogs, hands down. some good guys in the fracs,but your statement is over the top. from a stick and rudder perspective " better", please.

 

[BentOver]

get over yourself ,i'm one of the 495,and the best sticks i have seen are the freightdogs, hands down. some good guys in the fracs,but your statement is over the top. from a stick and rudder perspective " better", please.

depends on what you feel being the best stick is..... The best stick guys will obviously be fighter guys... Do they make the best passenger pilots??? I really don't know, just wondering... I know that at Delta there was always a snicker that you could tell who was the Navy guy after his carrier landing to a 14000ft runway...

 

[Waldom]

Nothing against only having box flying experience, but I think flying peole trains you to be smoother. (Not a better pilot operational/standard wise)

A poor pilot is a poor pilot, no matter what he or she is flying.

Pilots who have a condescending opinion about a type of flying they have never done only highlight their own inexperience.

 

[BentOver]

A poor pilot is a poor pilot, no matter what he or she is flying.

Pilots who have a condescending opinion about a type of flying they have never done only highlight their own inexperience.

Well, I've flown boxes, did airlines, flew corporate, have done charter..... Haven't done military..... Maybe it's just the people I've known that have only a cargo background that leaves me skewed. I just haven't been impressed with the only cargo background people I know

 

[G4dude]

News flash, I'm furloughed and don't fly wealthy people around. The people I do fly though, are quite happy and appreciative for what I'm doing.

But let's look at why flying wealthy/famous people around (again, something I no longer do) requires a higher degree of professionalism and safety than flying car parts. If one of the fracs dorks a plane with a celebrity onboard, the entire country will find out. The backlash against the company could be big enough to cripple it permanently. What happens when a cargo plane goes down? Maybe some coverage at the location of the crash, and maybe some coverage at the hometown of the company. The rest of the world never finds out and doesn't care, and the cargo company will continue to get business as long as they are the lowest bidder. It may be a cold way to look at things, but that's how they are.

All of which is irrelevant.

 

[G4dude]

And there lies the problem, you have no clue what impact the union vote had on CS.

The clue is the timing of the announcement.

 

[G4dude]

There is nothing at all to be commended about a person who says he wants to scab.

There is nothing to be commended about a person who will leave his/her job, march around like an idiot, and coerce others to leave their jobs or face reprisals for the rest of their careers. NOTHING.

 

[wacoflyr]

There is nothing to be commended about a person who will leave his/her job, march around like an idiot, and coerce others to leave their jobs or face reprisals for the rest of their careers. NOTHING.

So you are not a trained professional, willing to stick up for your quality of life and quantity of pay, as well as that of others, when the chips are down.(sigh) It is a good thing you weren't around in 1776, or 1862, or 1944. In the current situation over there at NetJets, you can cause little or no harm, but your attitude is sad.

 

[G4dude]

So you are not a trained professional, willing to stick up for your quality of life and quantity of pay, as well as that of others, when the chips are down.(sigh) It is a good thing you weren't around in 1776, or 1862, or 1944. In the current situation over there at NetJets, you can cause little or no harm, but your attitude is sad.

I will fight for good conditions, but not at the expense of threatening the well being of my company. Furthermore, and thank you for the civilized post, I would NEVER mistreat a pilot who had struck, nor would I keep a list of strikers so I could harass them at every opportunity. Yet they would do those things to me. See the difference?

 

[wacoflyr]

I will fight for good conditions, but not at the expense of threatening the well being of my company. Furthermore, and thank you for the civilized post, I would NEVER mistreat a pilot who had struck, nor would I keep a list of strikers so I could harass them at every opportunity. Yet they would do those things to me. See the difference?

The difference is that YOU are determining what is best for the company. From what I understand, (and I am not over there) your union asked the company to stop hiring so many pilots before the furloughs, and has constantly suggested ways to make the operation more efficient. Sounds to me like they are behaving responsibly.

Unions can be bad, but rarely are. Sound familiar? Sounds like management, doesn't it? It has been said that companies get the union that they deserve. I believe this. At Avantair, we have no union. That is because our management team has been responsive.

Yes, you are a free agent. However, you cannot bargain as an individual with your company when you are paid according to scale. You can't quit because then you would be forced to start at the bottom of another list. If the company decides to treat the pilot group badly, and some have, then you have no recourse except to organize. That is why unions are legal in this country. That's right, the land of the free recognizes the importance of unions.

When you, an individual, decide that you don't want to be part of that organizing process, then you can choose not to participate. However, it is recognized that your pay has benefited from the union efforts, so you have to pay dues, which is only fair.

If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.

If your union had a history of poor behavior, I could sort of understand your attitude. It does not. If you had first tried to improve it from within, you would have some defense. You have not.

You come across as a conservative, which is fine. Most pilots are. Most pilots also belong to unions, and do not see any contradiction. They see it as their only recourse in an employment situation that is different from all but a few in the entire economy. I'm not asking you to vote for Obama. I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots.

Wacoflyr

 

[imacdog]

"But let's look at why flying wealthy/famous people around (again, something I no longer do) requires a higher degree of professionalism and safety than flying car parts."

Interesting attitude.

Seems to me that there should be no difference in the level of professionalism with which you approach your flying regardless of what is in the cabin.

Do you actually relax your standards if there are not "wealthy/famous" people" in the back?

There is a big difference between "responsibility" of flight duties (as you are touching on) and "liability", which I am talking about.

 

[pilotyip]

Go easy on the old timer...he's just a little past his prime.

No she posts over on the other site

There is nothing at all to be commended about a person who says he wants to scab.

wasn't commended for that, but for being civil in his posts, something a lot of people who are unsure of themselves have trouble doing.

From someone who thinks he's better because he flies wealthy people around (who think nothing of him).

as per above, when someone is unsure of themselves and their life choices they have to look down on someone to feel better about themselves.

From strickly a stick and rudder perspective, yes flying wealthy people (or any people for that matter) trains one to fly "better" than flying boxes....

Oh! please, we have had pilots go NJ from JUS, and that said they were disappointed with training they thought they would see a level above KYIP training. They said standards were very lax compared to what they were used to at JUS. As per 727C47 said guys coming out of the box hauling business have developed skills beyond smooth landings.

 

[imacdog]

LOL, okay YIP if the job your pilots do is worth the same, then why aren't they paid the same as the fracs?

 

[G4dude]

Wacoflier said: If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.


When I scab, and I will if a strike happens, it will not be because I think I am smarter and morally better than my fellow pilots. It will mean I disagree with what they are doing. And I won't intimidate them or threaten to make their lives uncomfortable. If you strike, I will not join you. We will just disagree. However, a union striker won't allow me to disagree. They will harass me for the rest of my career.
Unions are legal. I just don't like their tactics or (usually) their long term results. What I hate most is the coercion. Paying dues doesn't bother me, even. Being a member is ok, I guess. Coercion sucks when discussing issues or when a strike is happening, that's all.

 

[G4dude]

The difference is that YOU are determining what is best for the company. From what I understand, (and I am not over there) your union asked the company to stop hiring so many pilots before the furloughs, and has constantly suggested ways to make the operation more efficient. Sounds to me like they are behaving responsibly.

Unions can be bad, but rarely are. Sound familiar? Sounds like management, doesn't it? It has been said that companies get the union that they deserve. I believe this. At Avantair, we have no union. That is because our management team has been responsive.

Yes, you are a free agent. However, you cannot bargain as an individual with your company when you are paid according to scale. You can't quit because then you would be forced to start at the bottom of another list. If the company decides to treat the pilot group badly, and some have, then you have no recourse except to organize. That is why unions are legal in this country. That's right, the land of the free recognizes the importance of unions.

When you, an individual, decide that you don't want to be part of that organizing process, then you can choose not to participate. However, it is recognized that your pay has benefited from the union efforts, so you have to pay dues, which is only fair.

If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.

If your union had a history of poor behavior, I could sort of understand your attitude. It does not. If you had first tried to improve it from within, you would have some defense. You have not.

You come across as a conservative, which is fine. Most pilots are. Most pilots also belong to unions, and do not see any contradiction. They see it as their only recourse in an employment situation that is different from all but a few in the entire economy. I'm not asking you to vote for Obama. I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots.

Wacoflyr

Good post, actually. However, I am against many things the union does precisely because I worry a LOT about the junior guys. I have been laid off 11 times, and don't want anybody to go through that. I want them to not lose their jobs. Our junior people are really good pilots, good people, and deserve a happy career. I fear an activist union will endanger that. You might disagree with my conclusions, but never doubt my feelings about my colleagues.

 

[imacdog]

Keep digging that hole, G. Funny stuff.

 

[G4dude]

Waco said in his excellent post, " I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots."

I do respect my fellow pilots. I even respect the right to strike. I just don't agree with the tactic and fear the results. Why do the union goons not respect me as well? And I am well aware you are not a goon, Waco.

 

[imacdog]

And I commend you; you have never reverted to the famous FI name calling, you have been respectful in your posts. Unlike the standard response for many on FI who disagree with you. But it is easy to revert to name calling when you hide behind a screen name.

Your posts always have that touch of reality which brings up those inconvienet truths that many elect to ignore. Keep up the good work.

Proven wrong yet again, YIP!

Why do the union goons not respect me as well?

 

[G4dude]

Keep digging that hole, G. Funny stuff.

I am enjoying this conversation, actually. Very few of us capitalist pigs post here, it gets too unpleasant for them. I enjoy y'all's passion, as long as you understand the difference between a difference of opinion and malice aforethought. And thank goodness for anonymous message boards! I would NEVER say this stuff on the ASAP board.
By the way, here's hoping the CA pilots get hired by NJA or whomever as soon as possible. I understand corporate departments are doing some hiring.

 

[imacdog]

Tell you what. Take what you posted about your decision to cross a picket line if it ever came to it, post it on the majors forum, and enjoy some conversation there. I'll pop the popcorn and will promise not to interject anything.

 

[G4dude]

Tell you what. Take what you posted about your decision to cross a picket line if it ever came to it, post it on the majors forum, and enjoy some conversation there. I'll pop the popcorn and will promise not to interject anything.

I can't blame you there! I might do that, but I don't enjoy upsetting people unnecessarily. I don't work for a Major, so I will probably let sleeping dawgs lie. Does sound like fun though. People on all sides are kinda stressed right now, no need to add to it, IMAC.

 

[pilotyip]

LOL, okay YIP if the job your pilots do is worth the same, then why aren't they paid the same as the fracs?

Who said the same? Different companies, different business models, different cost structures and competition. Same reason that Kittyhawk (ALPA) 727 Captain made 1/2 of what FedEx (ALPA) 727 Captains made.

BTW at even 1/2 of FedEx, KH went BK. And we have few NJ guys flying a JUS who are making a lot more money than they would have at NJ, because they were were among the 495 given the boot to ensure the rest of the NJ pilots could keep their pay.

 

[barnyard]

ALERT: REVERTING TO FAMOUS FI NAMECALLING

they were were among the 495 given the boot to ensure the rest of the NJ pilots could keep their pay.

You sir are an idiot.

 

[CA1900]

... 495 given the boot to ensure the rest of the NJ pilots could keep their pay

You have no first hand knowledge of what's happened at this company. We were leaving pilots at home for entire tours. Do you really think that was because we were too expensive, or do you think maybe DEMAND might have something to do with it?

 

[727C47]

Well, I've flown boxes, did airlines, flew corporate, have done charter..... Haven't done military..... Maybe it's just the people I've known that have only a cargo background that leaves me skewed. I just haven't been impressed with the only cargo background people I know

I'm sure they feel the same about you

 

[imacdog]

And we have few NJ guys flying a JUS who are making a lot more money than they would have at NJ, because they were were among the 495 given the boot to ensure the rest of the NJ pilots could keep their pay.

Ah yes, because historically, concessions at other companies have prevented furloughs. Oh wait, no they didn't, I guess you've been proven wrong yet again. Does being wrong all the time about a company in a different segment of aviation than your own ever get tiring?

 

[pilotyip]

maybe DEMAND might have something to do with it?

demand has everything to do with it, as in all segments of business. But this was about how come our pilots don't make as much as NJ guys. I just responded we have NJ guys making a lot more than NJ pays them, because NJ no longer pays them. In fact some have worked up to DC-9 Captain and will take a pay cut if they move back to the right seat of CE at NJ in 5-10 years.

ALERT: REVERTING TO FAMOUS FI NAMECALLING
You sir are an idiot.

Really came up with a good one there, something new, something to really grab the spotlight. Why I just don't know how you guys do it. Being so witty and all.

Some people just can't feel good unless they do these things.

 

[NachoMamma]

I would NEVER say this stuff on the ASAP board.

Yeah...backbones are hard to come by these days.

 

[pilotyip]

Ah yes, because historically, concessions at other companies have prevented furloughs. Oh wait, no they didn't, I guess you've been proven wrong yet again. Does being wrong all the time about a company in a different segment of aviation than your own ever get tiring?

Well except for K C II, ask for, got concessions, no lay offs. Well except UAW concessions to save companies and jobs, how about AT in 2001 to reduce lay offs?