CitationAir How Much Longer

[gunfyter]

With all their unions, I expect SouthWest to go under any day now...

I don't know where I saw it or if its accurate ... but ... I heard CA lost $40 M last year. If true ... I estimate that If every Pilot worked for free ... they still would have lost money.

You make the call ... Union's fault? :bomb:

 

[rigger]

You do realize that an LOA is a contract, right?

Only if signed by both parties..... CA agrees to it but does not sign it till the entire contract is in force. Just like the parts agreed to already....just agreed to not signed yet.......

Dude guy you must be a ubber liberal cause you are always on the wrong side of every ideal.....I know this hurts a lot but if you remove your head from your butt you will be able to see better breath better and smell the roses and most importantly you will begin to regain feeling between your ears so that your mind can clearly see the reality of your situation...it sucks but it is what it is anyway!

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's pretty clear from the IBT's email that they're not looking for an LOA that won't be signed until after a full CBA is done. They're trying to get a furlough LOA to protect everyone now. Will they be successful? Maybe, but certainly not if idiots stop paying their dues and screw over their buddies who need those protections.

And yes, I am a liberal, and damned proud of it.

 

[G4dude]

With all their unions, I expect SouthWest to go under any day now...

I don't know where I saw it or if its accurate ... but ... I heard CA lost $40 M last year. If true ... I estimate that If every Pilot worked for free ... they still would have lost money.

You make the call ... Union's fault? :bomb:

I did not mean to damn all unions, although I don't like them, generally. I was pointing out that the timing of Citation Air's announcement seemed to follow the union election there. The company's expenses were scheduled to increase as a result of the union election. Whether or not you like unions, it is common knowledge that they increase operating costs wherever they exist.

 

[Smooth Cruz]

timing is most likely coincidental with union vote. I think we are seeing a restructuring of a conglomerate organization from the top down by a new ceo who was hired to turn every facet of textron into a profitable organization. when there is only managed aircraft at ca, cessna dumps all costs on the owner. unfortunately, a lot of great people are about to lose their jobs, I hope the company offers the same early retirement and severence as they have in the past.

 

[wacoflyr]

I care about the problems of other pilots a lot,...

This from the pilot who stated he would cross a picket line of pilots from his own company and scab. Does he really care about other pilot's problems? Maybe not.

 

[vrb115]

All you union haters have no idea. This company has not made $$$$$ since day one. Of course you are going to go out of business, when you have such smart people running things up there at 5 american lane. The union was voted in to try and help those pathetic managers up there to try and help.

 

[rigger]

I think it's pretty clear from the IBT's email that they're not looking for an LOA that won't be signed until after a full CBA is done. They're trying to get a furlough LOA to protect everyone now. Will they be successful? Maybe, but certainly not if idiots stop paying their dues and screw over their buddies who need those protections.

And yes, I am a liberal, and damned proud of it.

Sorry to here that.....At least your not the ubber liberal......

but I was really speaking to the fella named Dude something.....I think your spot on otherwise.

And why would the company sign a binding agreement now.....no incentive to do this. Especially knowing the union will be loosing any teeth it once had anyway due to the impending 180 furloughs.....course that will put the union with about 150-180 pilots total.....

Now who would you be screwing if you were in the bottom 50-75 by not paying your dues the next6 months your buddies who will get any shorted funds from the IBT that made hundreds of millions last year....or your family that faces you not bringing in a paycheck......that 600-1000 dollars could be paying your mortgage instead of hoffas rolls Royce and the IBT private jet!

As I said earlier if the IBT cared about us the way they say...they should just step up ( like they are trying to force the company to do) and just put the guys in question dues on hold.......This is up to the IBT they have the power to help the brothers and sisters themselves.....instead you get a letter that says PAY US YOUR DUES!!!!! That my friend is PATHETIC......

 

[PCL_128]

And why would the company sign a binding agreement now.....no incentive to do this.

You'd be surprised. Companies frequently like to get that sort of stuff in a consensual agreement in this kind of situation. They have more leverage to get some of the stuff that they may want to end up in a final contract by giving the union some things that they need now for members soon to be furloughed. Maybe they say no, maybe they bargain. But either way, the union needs to try, and they need the continued support of the membership if they have any chance of success.

As I said earlier if the IBT cared about us the way they say...they should just step up ( like they are trying to force the company to do) and just put the guys in question dues on hold.......This is up to the IBT they have the power to help the brothers and sisters themselves

Actually, it's not that simple. A union can't just decide that a small group of active members isn't going to pay dues while all of the other active members have to keep paying dues. That's considered "arbitrary" and "discriminatory," which is a violation of the union's DFR obligations under the law.

.....instead you get a letter that says PAY US YOUR DUES!!!!! That my friend is PATHETIC......

Hey, I won't tell you that their letter was very nice. The IBT isn't exactly known for its subtlety and nuance. It was probably in bad taste to start off the whole situation with that. But the situation doesn't change just because the IBT isn't good with subtlety in their communications. They still need the support (both financial and otherwise) from the membership in order to have any ability to secure protections for your pilots. That's what is important.

 

[The Dude Abides]

Only if signed by both parties..... CA agrees to it but does not sign it till the entire contract is in force. Just like the parts agreed to already....just agreed to not signed yet.......

Still wrong. Figure it out.

Dude guy you must be a ubber liberal cause you are always on the wrong side of every ideal.....I know this hurts a lot but if you remove your head from your butt you will be able to see better breath better and smell the roses and most importantly you will begin to regain feeling between your ears so that your mind can clearly see the reality of your situation...it sucks but it is what it is anyway!

I'm not sure what an "ubber" liberal is, but if I were "ubber" what difference would it make? It's irrelevant. Wanna' know my religious views too?

I believe that the most apropos retort to your obviously well thought out and constructive statement is, according to my 10 year old, I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!

C'mon, Rigger. (See? I even capitalized your name . . . a sign of respect). You gotta' have better than just trying to lay false allegations and point fingers. The IBT did nothing wrong in their letter. They were responding to guys who were saying that they were going to stop paying dues. Not irreverent (sp?), not out of line, completely appropriate. The letter was exactly what they should have said.

Times are going to be tough ahead. The last thing we need is guys like you who are just angry at everything. Pin it on the union or BS or Cessna/Textron, whatever makes you feel better, but you still haven't come up with a single FACT.

Tomorrow at 7pm eastern we'll have the answers.

 

[G4dude]

This from the pilot who stated he would cross a picket line of pilots from his own company and scab. Does he really care about other pilot's problems? Maybe not.

I would cross because I care about my job and the jobs of my fellow pilots, and would fear a (hypothetical) strike would put our company out of business or severely downsize it, hurting me and my colleagues. Rendering us unemployed. So yes I care, just as you care. We just disagree about how to address the problem of labor/management relations, that's all. I have never been in management, but I have flown for a lot of companies that went out of business because they were not profitable. The only thing worse than a furlough is having your employer go belly up.

 

[G4dude]

All you union haters have no idea. This company has not made $$$$$ since day one. Of course you are going to go out of business, when you have such smart people running things up there at 5 american lane. The union was voted in to try and help those pathetic managers up there to try and help.

Not wanting to sound flippant, but how did that work for you, voting in a union?

 

[pilotyip]

Not wanting to sound flippant, but how did that work for you, voting in a union?

You did not ask the rest of the question, " The union was voted in to try and help those pathetic managers up there to try and help". How were they planning on doing this? Increased productivity has never been a rallying point on any union issue I have ever death with. The one I always heard was more pay, more days off, and increased cockpit manning.

 

[Praetorian]

I would cross because I care about my job and the jobs of my fellow pilots, and would fear a (hypothetical) strike would put our company out of business or severely downsize it, hurting me and my colleagues. Rendering us unemployed. So yes I care, just as you care. We just disagree about how to address the problem of labor/management relations, that's all. I have never been in management, but I have flown for a lot of companies that went out of business because they were not profitable. The only thing worse than a furlough is having your employer go belly up.

There you have it folks. This individual shall henceforth be known as, "G4 SCAB".

 

[Praetorian]

And why would the company sign a binding agreement now.....no incentive to do this. Especially knowing the union will be loosing any teeth it once had anyway due to the impending 180 furloughs.....course that will put the union with about 150-180 pilots total.....

Why would pilots, who are facing the possible furlough of an indeterminate number of their pilot group continue to give their all, out on the line, for a management team unwilling to protect them with a signed furlough agreement?

Now who would you be screwing if you were in the bottom 50-75 by not paying your dues the next6 months your buddies who will get any shorted funds from the IBT that made hundreds of millions last year....or your family that faces you not bringing in a paycheck......that 600-1000 dollars could be paying your mortgage instead of hoffas rolls Royce and the IBT private jet!

Your projecting you personal values onto the union. You think because you are all about yourself so is the unions leadership. The fact is the leadership has an obligation to protect the entire group, not just individuals. The pilot group, which is the union, will minimize the overall damage to itself by standing together shoulder to shoulder through this crisis. Calls for dues boycotts only divide the union and weaken its bargaining position with management. The unions leaders know this.

Btw, nice try with the straw man attack. The Teamsters do not own a private jet. And since Rolls is a foreign make I know Hoffa would not be caught dead in one (Cadillac maybe). But if private jet ownership is an indication of nefarious intent, well...

As I said earlier if the IBT cared about us the way they say...they should just step up ( like they are trying to force the company to do) and just put the guys in question dues on hold.......This is up to the IBT they have the power to help the brothers and sisters themselves.....instead you get a letter that says PAY US YOUR DUES!!!!! That my friend is PATHETIC......

Which pilots are "in question", I wasn't aware CA had so-far announced a furlough? Perhaps, in your zeal to slander the union, you are getting ahead of yourself?

 

[G4dude]

You did not ask the rest of the question, " The union was voted in to try and help those pathetic managers up there to try and help". How were they planning on doing this? Increased productivity has never been a rallying point on any union issue I have ever death with. The one I always heard was more pay, more days off, and increased cockpit manning.

Absolutely!!!!!!! Cessna knew this, too!

 

[G4dude]

There you have it folks. This individual shall henceforth be known as, "G4 SCAB".

And proudly so, Praetorian. I think you union goons are morons. Infantile and borderline sociopathic, with little ability or desire to actually think for yourself. Hopefully, a strike will never happen at NJA, so this is all academic.

 

[Praetorian]

Absolutely!!!!!!! Cessna knew this, too!

Now G4 SCAB claims to know what Cessna "knew". :nuts:

 

[G4dude]

Now G4 SCAB claims to know what Cessna "knew". :nuts:

The timing is certainly suggestive. The abrupt reversal right after the union vote. Unless you feel Cessna was happy the pilots had just unionized. Companies make decisions based on their profit projections. Unions decrease those projections. Seems rational to me.

 

[Praetorian]

And proudly so, Praetorian. I think you union goons are morons. Infantile and borderline sociopathic, with little ability or desire to actually think for yourself. Hopefully, a strike will never happen at NJA, so this is all academic.

Dear G4 SCAB,

Its not "academic" at all. Because when you find out a man would not have your back in a fight and would further go over and enthusiastically help your attacker, you can't respect, trust, or suffer his company.

I hope we find out who you are in the mean time, so we can expose you to your fellow pilots for what you are.

"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles. When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and Angels weep in Heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out...." Jack London