Citation Shares, what would you change?

[SKYLAWYER]

Without a union, is it common place for pilots to be fired at CS?

I guess I am not too familiar with the pros/cons of a union in aviation other than what I read here and in aviation magazines.

Any of you CS pilots know of anyone fired recently? If so, what was the reason. Thanks for any help here. I guess I am trying to determine if you feel it would be beneficial to have a union at CS.

We do have a review process than is a panel of volunteer line pilots that looks at disciplinary and other cases if requested by the pilot involved in the situation. This is a panel of your peers who do the same job as you do and determine if your actions made logical common sense. They recently re-instated a terminated pilot back to flying status. The entire process occured 10 times faster than if we would have had a union on the property. No-one I have heard of fired recently here at CS. Several I have heard of that probably deserved it but the company has been very good when it comes to these items. The switch to a senority system eliminated what was most guys fears when it came to mgmnt. Now knowing exactly when you are going to upgrade makes things a lot better for most people.
Many of the pilots here who are pro-union would probably list disciplinary actions of the mgmt as one of the least reasons for the union push. Most want some QOL issues that they hope a union would provide, few here are intimidated by the suits in HQ. Long-winded but hope this helps.

 

[7777]

Long winded and thorough. You guys have been very helpful in this thread. Thank you very much for that answer. That was very helpful.

There was a thread on the 'other site' some time back where a poster stated you sign a contract or form of some sort when you first start working at Citation Shares that basically says you can be terminated at any time for any reason....is that true? If so, does this committee have any pull over something like that? Is there another form you sign after being hired that over rules this one? Just curious as I am seriously considering CS as my primary target for employment after my retirement. Thanks again for the information.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Long winded and thorough. You guys have been very helpful in this thread. Thank you very much for that answer. That was very helpful.

There was a thread on the 'other site' some time back where a poster stated you sign a contract or form of some sort when you first start working at Citation Shares that basically says you can be terminated at any time for any reason....is that true? If so, does this committee have any pull over something like that? Is there another form you sign after being hired that over rules this one? Just curious as I am seriously considering CS as my primary target for employment after my retirement. Thanks again for the information.

You sign a promissory note which is must different from a training contract, and as a new hire you are ineligible for the review process until you finish one year of employment. The promissory note expires after one year and you never have to renew it under any circumstances after it's finished. I guess you could be terminated for any reason while in your first year, however, I believe you would probably be the first if that happened. Also as a new hire almost nothing except for knocking out a owner is your fault, so it is unlikely that you would ever need it. Now since you are coming from the military and unfamiliar I will give you my legal commentary on the difference between a training contract and a promissory note. A training contract can be seen as technically illegal. There is precedence on the books that state a company must train you to the minimum standard required to do the job. Training contracts have been successfully fought in court in the past. Smart company attorneys have began to get around this by issuing promissory notes instead. In many states you do not even have to be present to have a promissory note judgment leveled against you. It is simply a note that you agree to pay a certain amount in exchange for some medium (in this case a type rating). If you challenge a contract the judge would prevent the company from going after you until the matter is resolved in court. In the case of a promissory note you will have a decision awarded against you and then you will have to fight it while the company is simultaneously attempting to have you pay (mostly done by selling off to collections and then having them bother you). The company has in the past, however, let some people out of the promissory note while making others pay. I guess they look at each situation differently. You quit after 3 months to go to NJ's then you pay. Sickness in the family causes major career change they probably wish you the best of luck and leave you alone.

 

[7777]

Again, thank you very much for the information. It is nice to hear it from someone working in the company instead of hearsay. It sounds like a great place to work and I really like what I have heard from the pilots in the company. Thank you for helping me out here.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

FYI - in the civilian world almost all employment relationships are "at will", meaning either side can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason. The language you mentioned above is quite common in any industry, whether you're talking about a stock clerk or a member of management. Very senior executives sometimes get an employment agreement that will define what happens when the relationship ends, including severance payments and that sort of thing. Point: expect to see this a lot as you consider employment opportunities, often in the application paperwork or in the offer letter.

 

[7777]

I was thinking that was probably the case. I have been in for so long, and it has been all I have ever known so it is very new to me. Thank you very much for the help here. It is going to be a different experience for me when I punch out of the military but we will adapt very well.

I have certain criteria I would like to meet when looking for a potential post military career employer and Citation Shares fits the bill perfectly. Thank you for your help.

 

[blueridge71]

Don't know if the POI had anything to do with it but I do believe Guitar Guy is right, this is the concern....your duty day (possibly 14 hours) starts when you get to your base, now the pilot has chosen to drive 4+ hours before this and you have one worn out unhappy pilot at the end of day one. Not saying they shouldn't get rid of this rule but I do see the reasoning.

I don't really think the POI has anything to do with it. It is probably based more on response time from home reserve.

You are right that duty time starts one hour prior to scheduled airline flight, 90 minutes prior to first flight on CS aircraft, or scheduled duty time for standby or reserve.

With every other company, the FAA only looks at duty times, not commuting times, and I dont' see why CS would be any different. The only time I have ever heard of the FAA looking at commuting time is when someone bent an airplane after getting up early to commute from the other coast. I can't remember the company, but fatigue was cited as a factor.

 

[7777]

I am wondering if any of you guys have used the jumpseat privelages you have with Sun Country, ATA, AirTran or the others?

If so, how does it work?

 

[Busflyer]

I have used the Air Tran jumpseat a couple times and had very little problems. You can call their reservations number the day before and ask them about seat availability for a jumpseater (we can not ride in anyone's cockpit jumpseat) then just go to the airport and ask a ticket agent or gate agent if they have room and could list you on the jumpseat.

For some reason when I call on the phone they don't show us on their jumpseat list, but this has never been a problem with the agents at the actual airport!

 

[netjetwife]

.....The entire process occured 10 times faster than if we would have had a union on the property. ....

Sky, in the interest of fair reporting, I'd like to correct that misunderstanding. Having written rules that everyone follows cuts down on the gray areas that could lead to disciplinary action in a non-union company. NJA always has a Union Steward on duty in CMH; it's a requirement that was started with the 2005 contract. The Company wanted a SOD as much as the Union did. Both groups have found that immediate attention to a problem while its still small has corrected the situation in a quick and effective manner. When a question does come up, the SOD (well versed in the contract) is immediately available to help the pilot out and/or intercede w/management on his behalf as both sides discuss the situation with the contract guiding them. Additional help, if needed, is available thru the Union's legal staff. The system is very efficient and helpful. That's why NJA pays a pilot's base salary while he or she is the Steward On Duty in CMH for a week.

The Stewards fill the position thru rotation and the NJA pilots are glad they're there as a backup and/or a source of contract information. It gives the pilotgroup peace of mind and many pilots point to it as a direct benefit of belonging to a Union.

The Chairman of the Union Training Committee is often called upon by both pilots and management to help with training questions/issues. Again, a quick response can usually nip a potential problem in the bud. Because of the UTC's involvement and the work done by the joint training committee, innovative changes have improved the pilotgroup's training experience and saved NJA million of dollars in the process. Much of that savings was plowed back into pilot wages. It doesn't get any more efficient or better than that as the pay raises at NJA, and coming soon to Shares, can attest. Congratulations again on the anticipated pay raise! NJW

 

[7777]

Netjetwife,

Please don't take this wrong because I mean it without flame and disrespect. In my opinion there are plenty of NetJet posts on this site...to many actually. This is a thread on CS and CS only. PLEASE read my first post and comply.

I know your intent and appreciate it, but please let this post remain about CS only. If a CS pilot has an opinion about something that applys to NetJets then so be it.

The last thing I want to see in this thread is for it to turn into the mess the 'CS Pay' thread turned into after it went to several pages of worthless (my opinion only) NetJets union rants both pro and con.

Thank you for your consideration here.

 

[netjetwife]

Sorry, I didn't go back to the first post and had forgotten your request. :0 I read most of the threads because events in the industry can affect us all. The misinformation about 1108 caught my eye and I thought it was important to set the record straight for you and all of the other pilots that gather employment information from this forum.

I wouldn't be surprised if that (setting the record straight) is not one of the main reasons that threads often evolve into Union discussions. Hopefully, I won't feel compelled again to post in this thread, but I'd like you to consider that expecting NJA folks to remain mum while others negatively, and often erroneously, comment on a Union they don't even belong to, is a tall order... that doesn't quite seem fair. NJW

 

[7777]

I have used the Air Tran jumpseat a couple times and had very little problems. You can call their reservations number the day before and ask them about seat availability for a jumpseater (we can not ride in anyone's cockpit jumpseat) then just go to the airport and ask a ticket agent or gate agent if they have room and could list you on the jumpseat.

For some reason when I call on the phone they don't show us on their jumpseat list, but this has never been a problem with the agents at the actual airport!

So you just basically show them your CS ID when you are checking in and are good to go?

 

[Busflyer]

Yep, pretty much that easy!

 

[7777]

That is great.

Sorry for all the questions but I only have a military aviation background. Can you use this privelage for going anywhere or is it only to or from work? If you have to live within 2 hours of your domicile, I don't see how you would need to use it and that is the premise from which I ask this question.

 

[Busflyer]

You can use it for any travel...I use it to travel to see friends!

 

[7777]

You can use it for any travel...I use it to travel to see friends!

Wow, that is VERY nice. I am pretty sure it is only for the CS pilot but I have to ask, how about immediate family members?

Also, what would you change about the company if you could change 3 things?

 

[sflax]

No just you for the free ride. Plus I just buy a ticket. No need to make plans get bumped and then you are stuck. As for change. I would change very limited things. The amount of paper work and calls during the day are a big pain.

 

[Busflyer]

For vacation and what not I would definately just buy tickets, jumpseating use to be a lot more reliable when load factors at the airlines where lower. Jumpseating is still great for us single guys that just randomly get bored in our off time though, and have friends scattered around the country!

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Sorry, I didn't go back to the first post and had forgotten your request. :0 I read most of the threads because events in the industry can affect us all. The misinformation about 1108 caught my eye and I thought it was important to set the record straight for you and all of the other pilots that gather employment information from this forum.

I wouldn't be surprised if that (setting the record straight) is not one of the main reasons that threads often evolve into Union discussions. Hopefully, I won't feel compelled again to post in this thread, but I'd like you to consider that expecting NJA folks to remain mum while others negatively, and often erroneously, comment on a Union they don't even belong to, is a tall order... that doesn't quite seem fair. NJW

Not going to get into details because I respect the original poster looking for info. Just to clarify that my statement about it occuring 10 times faster than with a union on property was a direct quote from a 1108 NetJet steward. I'm not mis-informed or mis-understood, simply taking it straight from the horses mouth. I believe you are sadly mistaken if you think that an actual (not pending termination) would have been reversed faster at NetJets. I understand your point of an early intervention using 1108 resources but the individual in question here was ACTUALLY already terminated and it took that long to have his full job back. If I am wrong then the hard working steward at NetJets who deals with these kind of situations every day must have been mis-informed as well. I have been an actual union card carrying member for many years, they are great for many things. Speed is not one of them, especially when you are the guy waiting for the verdict to come in.