Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Just out of curiosity.

A whore is a whore is a whore.

AFELLOWAVIATOR, are Skywest pilots whores because they'll do it for less then you? Why do you think you're flying those RJs to begin with? Could it be because you'll do it for less then a mainline pilot? Think about it

 

[FDJ2]

what costs less, if a man needs his lawn mowed, is it cheeper for him to have his son do it or to hire someone for $50 an hour to do it???? How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out???? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work? It keeps the profit inhouse and doesn't cost anything....just a few thoughts....\

It depends on how much his son is charging him to mow the lawn.

"How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work?"

If someone is willing to do it for less and you don't have scope over it, it will be farmed out. You can take that to the bank. How many mainline RJs are there? Obviously it was cheaper to hire out.

 

[climbhappy]

you can't assume family members work for free , or for meal and laundry ,cable TV privaleges.

from an accounting standpoint.....sure it cost something, but we all know how majical accountants can be

upon hearing the scoop from a comair buddy of mine...its clear to me DAL pilots should take a pay cut first.

knowing its about to get ugly, 300 senior Delta pilots took early retirement and took their pensions in a lump sum distribution, because after seeing what happened to us air and united( soon to lose theirs) they opted out.............that was the reason for the recall!

 

[FDJ2]

knowing its about to get ugly, 300 senior Delta pilots took early retirement and took their pensions in a lump sum distribution, because after seeing what happened to us air and united( soon to lose theirs) they opted out.............that was the reason for the recall!

Climbhappy, the early retirements were driven by a record low GATT rate which greatly increases the retirement lump sum payout. With the GATT rate going up many DAL pilots near retirement took advantage of the larger pay out. No analyst is predicting that DAL is close to bankruptcy, so I hardly think that was the driving factor.

 

[sleepy]

AFELLOWAVIATOR, why do you refer to the SkyWest pilots as "whores"?

It just makes good business sense for DAL to farm out RJ flying to the least costly option, since it is not protected by any scope language. "Whore" can be a relative term. Why do you think you are flying any DCI flying to begin with? Could it be because you are willing to do it for far less then DAL pilots? I don't think throwing around terms like "whore" will be beneficial in the long run. If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause. You might have to take a pay cut and backwards seat movement in exchange for the flow through and scope protections, but it's all for the best in the long run.

How about this term, scum!

 

[Catbird]

FDJ2's Quote-"If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause."

I guess the fact that the DAL didn't have a "Scope Clause" covering the DCI flying when DAL bought DCI is unimportant to this individual. Since DALALPA wouldn't accept ANY dialog concerning "Flow Thru" when DCI was purchased, they have continued this backward attempt at controlling the flying. The courts are in the process of determining who is lying. The pilots at DCI,PDT,ALG,ASA and PSA have seen DALPA pilots "working over" the pilots at ASA and DCI. Lets hope the judge see's it also and Duane has his pen ready to write some big checks for damages.
Wake up, the world dosn't rotate around DELTA pilots. Never has , never will.

Fraternally- CBird

 

[FLB717]

Surplus1,
You sir are so correct it makes my toes tingle with admiration.

FDJ2,
Man that is the reason you have to worry about DCI. Its hard to fall asleep at the wheel and get the car back on the road when you wake up in the ditch.

DCI Guys/Gals,
DONT TAKE A CUT. and NO FLOW BACK, oh I mean through.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Wow. You guys really like to throw the word "whore" around a lot when referring to SKYW pilots.

Here's a challenge for you. Name one pilot at SKYW that bought his or her job. That's right. Just name one.

One of the main reasons that regional pay has historically been very low is because so many of you were willing to shell out 10-12K for a shot at a 15K/year job. Had that not been the case we would all be making more money.

Sorry to turn this into a PFT thread but thats the cold hard truth about this industry and why the payscale is where it is.

Remember the old saying - "people in glass houses shouldn't thow stones."

 

[FDJ2]

How about this term, scum!

Should mainline pilots refer to CMR pilots as "whores" and "scum" because they under bid the mainline pilots on RJs? I don't think that that type of name calling accomplishes much. How about sticking to the issue. The CMR pilots are about to have a rude awakening on the value of scope. For years they've grown because they were willing to do the job for less then mainline pilots. All was happy, scope was bad it prevented management from outsourcing more and more flying to the low bidders. Now they are learning that other pilots will do it for less then them. OOOPPPSSS!!!!. Calling Skywest pilots "whores" or "scum" won't solve their little problem. It's just ironic that the CMR pilots who have worked so hard to undermine the scope protections of other ALPA pilots will now need scope more then ever.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

OK, you lost me. When did the Delta pilots "bid" on flying the RJ? As I recall, we were the first airline in N. America to purchase them.
Truth us, Delta pilots never "bid' to fly the RJ. So how is it that we "under bid" them?


Spin away, cause you know I'm right.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

As far as scope. We wanted to discuss scope in our last set of talks, but our puppet mgr.'s had no authority to do so. We would need to talk directly with our real mgr.s, and ALPA, not wanting to rub the mainline pilots thr wrong way, forbid us from doing it.

For years, ALPA has fought alter ego airlines, but now , as long as your aircraft have 70 seats or fewer, they don't care. I intend on asking worthless about this at our meeting thur.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

AFELLOW,
"whore, scum, ect"
It seems to me, by definition any express-connection carrier who is flying mainline citypairs deserves to be labeled as such. For every express-connection pilot who bends over and spreads his a$$ cheeks for 1000PIC and plans to move to the MAINLINE job, all the while planning with glee all of the express-connection expansion at the regional level, deserves what they get! Years of substandard pay and working conditions as a reward for spreading those cheeks.
Enjoy the cornholing folks, it's only gonna get worse.
PBR
The difference between a whore and a slut is a whore gets paid for the same work that a slut does for free!

 

[skywav8r]

Reading the opening post in this thread I was upset at mainline MANAGEMENT pressuring the comair pilots for concessions. The Comair pilots had the unity and resolve to take action and strike for a contract that provided a decent living wage. I know that we at Skywest benefited greatly by your sacrifices. I have some very good friends that work for Comair and saw firsthand what guys had to do to keep the food coming in while on strike. But that second post by AFELLOWAVIATOR shows that not all are created equal. Comair pilot's....I feel sorry for any crewmember that has to fly with someone with such a negative and destructive attitude. Good luck with your fight against mainline management and when AFELLOWAVIATOR fails his next checkride, don't come knocking on our door for a job.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Reading the opening post in this thread I was upset at mainline MANAGEMENT pressuring the comair pilots for concessions. The Comair pilots had the unity and resolve to take action and strike for a contract that provided a decent living wage. I know that we at Skywest benefited greatly by your sacrifices. I have some very good friends that work for Comair and saw firsthand what guys had to do to keep the food coming in while on strike. But that second post by AFELLOWAVIATOR shows that not all are created equal. Comair pilot's....I feel sorry for any crewmember that has to fly with someone with such a negative and destructive attitude. Good luck with your fight against mainline management and when AFELLOWAVIATOR fails his next checkride, don't come knocking on our door for a job.

Sir, you know nothing about me. It tics me off to see you flying 70 seaters at sub par 50 seat rate. You know why? Because it has negative affects on us, i.e. concession talk. Your sub par rates are being waved in our faced. You wanted some shinny new jets to fly with 70 seats, and will fly them for gutter wages. Now, we are asked to do the same. If you had any respect for yourself, you would of demamnded 70 seat pay for 70 seat aircraft. Your little group is pathetic. Whore was the best way to describe your actions.

And by the way, I have flown three diff aircraft while at Comair, been hear almost 10 years, and never failed an oral or checkride. I have been instructing for almost four years, and have never had a student fail an oral or a check ride.

 

[RichO]

Just curious....when it comes right down to it....the latest thing of having first year FO's stay at first year pay rates through the second year, how many of the senior guys will eventually bend over, vote it in, and sacrifice the young to save their *ss???????? I'm afraid at the answer............and of course some will quit if this happens, but unfortunately many will fly at first year wages for two years..........

 

[FLB717]

Im going to stick my nose in hear and give my worthless opinion.

1. Skywest or anyone else must stand firm on contract disputes and fight for nothing less that they have now or in the past.

2. ONE LIST and all is solved. Stop making the lives or stupid MBA types at DAL etc easy by fighting with your peer groups and "Main Line" brothers. DAL and DCI on one list and quess what no more B.S.

3. It will never happen because of pride and ego.

 

[surplus1]

Just curious....when it comes right down to it....the latest thing of having first year FO's stay at first year pay rates through the second year, how many of the senior guys will eventually bend over, vote it in, and sacrifice the young to save their *ss???????? I'm afraid at the answer............and of course some will quit if this happens, but unfortunately many will fly at first year wages for two years..........

I think your curiosity is honest, but allow me to offer a warning. It is just this type of comment that starts the ball rolling in the direction of division within the pilot group. All that I have to do now is counter with ... the juniors are going to eventually bend over and give away all we've worked for in exchange for the hope of growth that will never come. .... And that's how the schism begins.

We must each have faith in the other. The seniors have to stand by the juniors and not let them down. The juniors have to stand with the seniors and not fall for the grow quick lie. If we don't stick together, they will eat us alive. They're counting on the division. Don't give it to them, please!

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 is right. Standing united will help your cause. I still think the Skywest fiasco occured because the bottom half wanted a quicker upgrade, which equaled a pay raise. The deciding factor was the "junior Capt" category. They wanted a better lifestyle (a line), and better choice of bases. Now, the Skywest pilots BELIEVE that in 12 months (18 months total...) they will renegotiate. By that time, everyone will be going for the same type of rates, and the company will say "we can't--we have to stay competitive."

The lack of scope at Comair/ASA is amazing. I know you guys never saw this one coming, but now you can "sort of" see how we have been feeling. (I am not making fun of you---just stating the obvious) Delta management is putting the squeeze on you and seeing who will take less for more growth. They have noticed that Skywest, Chataqua, and other pilots will accept less pay for that ellusive upgrade. It will be interesting to watch.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Surplus is dyed-in-the-wool Comair. Don't knock him for that.

You got that right. Maybe you've also noticed that all the Delta types writing on this board are "dyed-in-the-wool Delta."

I think that loyalty to your own family is not only important, it is essential. I don't criticise the Deltoids for their loyalty to Delta, it's a good thing. What pi$$es me off is their idea that we should be loyal to them before we are loyal to ourselves. I can't turn my back on my own brothers and sisters for the possibility of a better job at Delta at some time in the future or to gain any other kind of "favors" from them, whether rhetorical, political or financial.

Meanwhile they disparage us at every opportunity, their leaders go out of their way to shaft us and steal from us, they have opposed us politically for more than a decade and have never hesitated to use their money and influence within ALPA to shaft us whenever they could. When their company bought our company they did not hesitate to tell us that we were second class and unworthy of association with them. That's the kind of people we're dealing with.

We should love them and despise our own kind, because after all, one day they just might let us come to the big house and eat in their kitchen? Some people may be willing to kiss their butts to do that. I'm not one of those people.

Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. The truth is they don't like us, they don't want us, and they are doing what they can to get rid of us. For that I should love them? No thanks.

However, I will say this. We should note and be aware of which of them is vocalizing this attitude towards us. The Delta pilots that write in these forums are mostly junior pilots, most of whom have not been at Delta for more than three years, a few maybe 5 or 6. They just got their dream job with Delta and they're pissed because they're furloughed. They can't deal with it and they have to blame anybody but themselves, so they pick on us and get even more angry when they are not humored. Typical junior birdmen.

Their leaders however, are cut from the same cloth. Arrogant beyond belief and quite willing to stop at nothing to further their own interests. They may not say much in public but they do a lot in private, none of it in our favor, and they get angry and stomp their feet when they don't get their way. Typical of the spoiled and wealthy.

Our little airline will never offer the financial remuneration of a career at a large airline like Delta, and this tail isn't going to wag that dog anytime soon. I know this. Nevertheless, there are some things in life that are worth far more than money or power, and that keeps me from being willing to sell my sould for either. The loyalty and respect of your co-workers, your fellow pilots, is one of them. We have that at little Comair and I guess that's why I'd rather be a "dyed-in-the-wool-Comair" pilot, than a pimple on the backside of an alien culture that privately despises me and my kind. To each his own.

As a Marine would say, Semper Fi. (No, I've never been a Marine)

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Bottom line: No concessions. No way.

It will not even be close.

You can take that to the bank.