Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

[DAL737FO]

Surplus1,

I wrote for almost 15 minutes before I realized that I had become you(bitter and filled with hate). Good luck at Comair that's as far as you are going. Have fun in the 70 seat (limited to 57 airframes). The only thing you did was crush the future careers of YOUR junior pilots. I'm furloughed but I'll be back at Delta some day. I can assure you that you will not.

Furloughed DAL737FO

 

[General Lee]

DAL737FO,

Come on man, don't do that. I don't think he is making fun of your situation.

 

[StaySeated]

Jesus...

Why are all of you guys so ANGRY? Over the last few months I think that each and every comair/delta/asa thread has turned into a battle royal!!

I have a recommendation. Go get drunk, all of you, preferably together. Shoot the sh1t, complain a little, and then try this great thing called laughter. I know that the world of aviation has scene better days but god@mn you guys need to relax and enjoy yourselves. I'm buyin the first round...

 

[RisingEagle]

After reading two pages of some the most extremely bitter men and women I came to the conclusion that the only color I saw was green (Envy). What is the matter with you all? Pilots are supposed to be a brotherhood/sisterhood....................not here!

Delta called Comair/Skywest whores and sluts, Comair hates Delta for the restraints that they have put on them.
I have been reading the same CRAP for EVER! Change the record.

Comair do not accept the concessions. Management is trying to keep a standard of moderate increase in their bottom line as imposed by Delta's management, do not let anyone tell you otherwise. They are spending more money then the bottom line allows for a normal quarter's profit. They will recover, do not allow them to line their pockets at your expense.

Comair keep the flow back out of your contract. Comair was not built on the back of Delta, nor do you ride on their coattails today, let the Delta criers worry about themselves. Delta does not allow the regionals that they in partnership with to flow up so why should Comair allow a flow back? Comair has the right idea in the way that they run their business, other airlines should take notes. Pick on Comair? It looks like a case of David and Goliath. If it were not for Comair, Delta would have been heading the way of United.

Dream on furloughed Delta pilots, change is on the horizon, I see you in a ..........70 seater. Delta has done nothing but try to suspend the growth of Comair, limit the number of aircraft and the size of their aircraft, does no one else see something wrong with that?

Comair: Keep up the fight with ALPA!

Good Luck

 

[General Lee]

RisingEagle,

Your battle here is not with Dalpa, but with Delta. They have seen that other regionals will take less pay for growth, and they have turned that now towards you. Delta dishes out the flying to the regionals---not Dalpa.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Huh? The Delta MEC says "all stakeholders must participate in cost reductions" so Delta, forced by the DAL MEC to ask for concssions, comes to Comair pilots. I'm sure management loves the irony of ALPA asking for concessions, but aside from being willing co-conspirators with the DAL MEC what has Delta Management got to do with this?

I expect DAL management to do the best they can for their shareholders. I expect my union to do the best they can for me. Who is not living up to my expectations?

At least Duane Woerth is coming to explain how taking a cut to preserve the pay scales of senior Delta pilots is good for me. Does anyone know if the TSA will let me get through security with a couple of over - ripe tomatoes?

 

[N2264J]

Re: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

Because I could less about CMR. CMR is nothing more than one of many vendors bidding to supply mainline feed. CMR could easily be replaced because they don't have scope over a single hour of DAL code.

Delta spent $2 billion dollars for Comair, the largest airline buyout in history. Hardly "just another vendor" easily replaced.

But since you maintain that Comair is a only contractor, tell us what the terms of the contract are. What is the duration of that contract?

 

[General Lee]

N2246J,

I don't know what FDJ2 meant by that, but I beleive he was saying that Comair will be treated like all of the other DCI carriers---in Delta's eyes I guess. They saw how Skywest gave in to growth, and they are pushing your buttons.

Fins,

I think our MEC meant exactly that, but for EVERY group---not just yours. I still think we will eventually give up some money---but with some strings--as you have mentioned. I also wonder what it will be like when DW walks into that conference room or whatever----he will probably have security....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

I also wonder what it will be like when DW walks into that conference room or whatever----he will probably have security....

General,

The President will not need security. He is coming to address a group of gentlemen. They will behave like gentlemen, he and his staff will be treated with the courtesy befitting the office that he holds, and we will listen to what he has to say. His remarks will be followed by a few rhetorical questions, and suitable but reserved applause.

He will likely tell us that we have the full support of the ALPA as has always been the case and remind us of how he personally, and the rest of the ALPA, was there for us in our hour of stress (much as you do). He will promise that "they" will be there again in this new time of pressure. He will affirm that the ALPA is not concerned about the RJDC, will prevail in the litigation, and only regrets that some of us are misguided and unaware of the Association's true value to our group. He will hope that they come to see the light. He will then adjust his halo and open the floor for a brieg Q & A. Our politicians will tell him that we are greatful for the support and appreciative of his taking the time from his busy schedule to visit with us. They will reaffirm our public positions as appropriate, pledge continued support for "the union" and express due concern for the plight of our industry and the problems that we all face. We will then join in a PR press release, espousing the solidarity of "the union", authored by the ALPA Communications Department.

When he leaves, we will have the room cleared of the smoke and discard the mirrors. We will then proceed in whatever manner Comair pilots collectively determine to be in our best interests.

Keep in mind that the "Admiral of the Fleet", is not the Captain of this ship. While he is "on board" we will not give him the helm but we will fly his flag from the yardarm. When he is gone we will strike it, and raise the Jolly Roger once more.

The charade that is politics is a beautiful thing to watch and the decorum of diplomacy does have its place. Fear not, we can play the game with the best of them, DW included.

PS. Tell your friend 737FO that I don't hate him or any of you and I'm definitely not bitter. I just find $hit sandwiches unpalatable and have decided not to eat them regardless of how the plate is garnished. Not withstanding that my home is less luxurious than his (and yours), I am comfortable in it and will not allow him, or anyone else, to evict me and mine without a major scuffle. I will continue to protect the interests of "my" junior pilots for as long as they are here and will wish them well, if and when they decide to move on. I will be content with my little RJ, having already proved that bigger is not always better. I will not fly Concorde, but then neither will any of you. The others are, after all, mundane. Since the dollar is not my mistress, I will not pine for it nor will I envy those that have more of it. I join him in hoping that his return to heaven will indeed be speedy, and I'm personally quite content with sitting at the right hand rather than on the throne.

All of that is probably much over his head but that shouldn't bother him since you all already know that I'm just an old s.o.b that didn't make it, which provides the laughter that I also enjoy. I wish him well.

It's not personal, its just business.

Regards, and thanks for your boost.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Understanding

Surplus said, "I will be content with my little RJ, having already proved that bigger is not always better. I will not fly Concorde, but then neither will any of you. The others are, after all, mundane. Since the dollar is not my mistress, I will not pine for it nor will I envy those that have more of it. I join him in hoping that his return to heaven will indeed be speedy, and I'm personally quite content with sitting at the right hand rather than on the throne.

All of that is probably much over his head but that shouldn't bother him since you all already know that I'm just an old s.o.b that didn't make it..."

I believe Surplus makes an excellent point here. The sooner people come to understand that point the better we will understand one-another and our relationship will likely be more productive.

Yes we are aware that there are pilots who want to move on.

There will always be pilots who want to move on.

Then there are those of us who have "been there, done that". Now we simply want stable, long-term employment free of outside influence.

I guess that is why for Surplus, and for myself, and for several hundred other pilots the threat that we will never work for Delta is a bit hollow. We've flown for major airlines. We've flown large aircraft. Got the t-shirt.

I have no interest in harming the career expectations of my coworkers. If they aspire to Delta, or United, or AirTran, or Air Wisconsin I wish them well. But that's their thing. Since I have no such aspirations I expect MY union to fight for MY career.

I'm junior once again. Once again I find my job in jeopardy (and quite frankly Surplus warned me that it might happen a year or so ago). I'll be at the meeting on the 9th.

With every bit the passion that General Lee fights for his career and the career of his furloughed brothers at Delta, he should expect me to fight for my own career. Count on it.

I'm not a gambling man, but I placed a pretty good sized bet on Comair. I bet my family. I resigned my seniority with the company I was furloughed from. I moved my family to my domicile. I bet the farm that I could make a stable-long term career at Comair. I'm not the only one. There are literally dozens of us here from airlines such as US Airways, TWAmerican, United, American Eagle...

We all bet on Comair and now, as junior Comair pilots, we place our faith and our livelihoods in the hands of our more senior brothers. Quite frankly, we're all pretty hopeful that ALPA here is not the same as ALPA at other companies.

So thats pretty much it. General Lee I hope that you can understand that over the last several years there has been a shift in the dynamic at Comair. This is not 1999 and not every pilot came here with 400 hours and the hopes of a quick upgrade and a fast-pass to the front of the line at Delta or any other major.

Some of us are starting over -- again. And we're going to fight for our careers as if this is our last chance at a career in the profession we love. For some of us, it is. For me it is.

 

[surplus1]

FourloughedAgain,

Let me say for all who read to hear that I am proud to count you among the ranks of my Comair brothers and sisters. I'm glad you joined us for we need people like you. I hope and trust that those of us who came before you and the many others like you, will be able to live up to your expectations. I'll do my best to do so.

One small note I would add to what you said. It is not just "since 1999" that our group has added folks like you. It was happening 10 years before that when our number was a mere 250. We came then and continue to come now from many places, and each of us has added what he could to the diversity of our experience as a group and our strength as individuals. We have benefited much, all of us, from that.

On a personal level, when I first came here we were much like the ALPA at other places to which you refer. It took us years of effort working together not only to build our little airline, but to learn to accept our differences and develop the "culture" of this pilot group. To create from our diversity the solidarity that we were unfortunately required to demonstrate a couple years back. It wasn't easy, and many of us had to adjust our thinking and our way of dealing with each other. We had to learn how to maintain our ability to differ as brothers do from time-to-time, while developing the cohesiveness of purpose that allows us to stand shoulder-to-shoulder in time of mutual need and defend each other as one.

Like you, I wasn't born a Comair pilot and I had to learn how to become one. I didn't throw away my past or forget it. Instead I learned to add it's good parts to the pot and embrace the good qualities of people that were already here. It took some time but I learned to contribute and to become a Comair pilot. It has been a privilege to be a part of this group and I can say without hesitation, that many of the finest airmen I have ever known, reside in this little airline. We've had our share of growing pains, but we've made it. We're still just a mouse in the big picture of things, but this little mouse has one he!! of a roar. I would advise the big cats never to try to corner it.

As you point out, many new faces have joined our ranks since 1999 and even since 2001. Those of us that were lucky enough to be a part of building whatever brought them here, sincerely hope that like you, they will embrace the unity and the goals of our purpose that make each of us and all of us "Comair Pilots", including those that may one day move on to their view of greener pastures.

That purpose is to better our lives individually and collectively; to imporve our Company and contribute to its profitability and to do well the job for which we are paid; to deal honestly and fairly with each other as well as with our fellow airline pilots on the outside of our community; to protect and honor each other __ for better and for worse; to be proud of who and what we are as men and women, and as professional airmen while never allowing our pride to remove our humility and respect for others. To defend that which is ours with our all, against all comers, and never to take from others for personal gain. To care for our younger members and to protect their interests and welfare with the same vigor that we ask of them in protecting the welfare of our seniors and that of our group as a whole.

The callous will not understand how we feel about each other and will disparage our idealism and descredit our solidarity. They will misinterpret our internal disagreements as indicative of weakness and a breach in our unity, and they will see our desire to protect our own as a cover for the same greed that is rampant within their own walls. They will interpret our belief in each other as sentimental hogwash with no place in the modern way of dog-eat-dog. They will try and try again to divide us from each other ... from within .... that they may better defeat our efforts to preserve our way of life and improve upon it. I predict they are wrong, and will be dissapointed.

We are facing new threats today along with old left over threats that haven't gone away. We have faced similar threats before. Together, we will meet the challenges, just as we did before. From time to time we may suffer setbacks for such is life, but as long as we stick together as Comair Pilots, we will weather the strorm. As long as we continue to recognize that our unity can only be destroyed if we do it to ourselves, We will survive. "Whatever it takes."

Keep the faith and thanks again for joining the team. We may not win all of the games all of the time, but whomever plays against us will have met his match.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General,

The President will not need security. He is coming to address a group of gentlemen. They will behave like gentlemen, he and his staff will be treated with the courtesy befitting the office that he holds....

It's not personal, its just business.

It is not personal, it is business, and this guy signed the deal that caused a civil war in my union. We should show him how we feel about it. We are almost exactly four years past being gentlemen at the 2000 BOD meeting. Gentlemen have an affinity for the truth that does not exist in the corrupt soul of our union today.

There are few people who have done as much damage to ALPA as Duane Woerth has. He belongs right up there with Lorenzo, Allen and the American Airline MEC when they split the union in two.

When will Comair tell the guy to his face just what we think of ALPA apartied? I hope one of your indians gets off the reservation and shouts the truth, just so we can see DW's reaction.

Last time he was confronted he and his minions went to the bathroom for 45 minutes and returned only to say the meeting was over. He is not much for open and honest debate - probably because the facts stack up so strongly against him and Cohen Weiss and Simon just hate it when he opens his mouth.

Just watch what happens if someone tries to get a tape, or video, recorder in the room. Just try it and see what happens!

Send that jerk packing back to Herndon VA with a list of discovery stapled to his butt, just above a boot print, and a decertification petition on his lecturn.

 

[nhbizz]

fins said: [...and a decertification petition on his lecturn. [/B][/QUOTE]

Please, do. Do us all a favor.

And Surplus1,

You do a great job of making Comair sound all rosy and cumbaya (sp?), love your neighbor, etc., but be real. I was there. The senior pilots at Comair can't hold a candle to anyone I have flown with at Delta. Yea, they are good, safe pilots, but I would start every trip wondering what kind of a$$ I would have to spend the trip with. There was zero concern from senior guys about the junior guy. Maybe that has changed since 1999 when I left. But, while I was there that is not the feeling I got. Since day one at Delta, EVERYONE has made me proud to be a Delta pilot. If greed governs our pilots, I am not aware of it every month when they pay for my medical coverage, have a lower pay guarantee while furloughs are on the street, contribute to furlough relief funds, Christmas funds, and things I am probably forgetting.

I apologize for jumping in, but I had to say my peace.

 

[FDJ2]

I guess the fact that the DAL didn't have a "Scope Clause" covering the DCI flying when DAL bought DCI is unimportant to this individual. Since DALALPA wouldn't accept ANY dialog concerning "Flow Thru" when DCI was purchased, they have continued this backward attempt at controlling the flying. Fraternally- CBird

CBIRD, the DAL pilots had scope over all DL code prior to your acquisition, it is the ASA/CMR pilots who never had scope over any DL code. FYI, it was the DAL MEC that approached the ASA/CMR MECs with the idea of a flow through. The ASA/CMR MECs refused to discuss the issue or engage in a dialogue. Nice try at revisionism though.

 

[FDJ2]

OK, you lost me. When did the Delta pilots "bid" on flying the RJ? As I recall, we were the first airline in N. America to purchase them.
Truth us, Delta pilots never "bid' to fly the RJ. So how is it that we "under bid" them?


Spin away, cause you know I'm right.

Nothing in the DAL PWA limits management from flying as many RJs as they want, wherever they want on the mainline. It would just be another category like the 737-800. However, since we gave management the opportunity to outsource the flying if they chose, guess what, they found a cheaper labor pool to do it. It aint spin, it's a fact. Why do you think you're flying the RJ and not the mainline? Duh!!!

 

[FDJ2]

As far as scope. We wanted to discuss scope in our last set of talks, but our puppet mgr.'s had no authority to do so.

AFELLOWAVIATOR, why didn't you get any successorship language in your PWA prior to your acquisition? It seems to me the whole question would be moot if you had properly negotiated your PWA. Don't blame the DAL pilots or ALPA for your failures to negotiate these very basic protections.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm tired of this successorship language crap. What about the union's obligations under its own Consitution and Bylaws?

So your point is we should have a contract that forces our Company into action when our union ignores its own C&BL's? Just what the heck do we pay dues to ALPA for, if not to represent our interests?

So, to be clear, your point is -

"We hijacked your union, you can not force us to obey the rules. You should have had a contract that forced the Company to obey the union's rules, that the union themselves chose to ignore."?

Hey FD2, if ALPA will not honor the requests of its own members who financially support the union, why do you think they would honor the requests of Delta?

 

[~~~^~~~]

The senior pilots at Comair can't hold a candle to anyone I have flown with at Delta.

Except maybe the Western, Northeast, or Ramsome guys.

 

[Russ]

Well fellowaviator
I have yet to see you answer the question posed about you buying your job. I am not happy about what we have done here at SkyWest about the 70s and pay. I now know how you feel about doing your part to ruin the industry. You just happened to do it earlier than us. Misery loves company, huh?
I may be flying for less than I should, but thankfully I didn't pay for to get my job. Remind me again who has the dirty knees?

 

[surplus1]

I apologize for jumping in, but I had to say my peace.

There is no need for you to apologize, you are entitled to your opinion. I do not hold it against you that it is somewhat different from mine. We are far from perfect and I did not mean to imply that we were. I confess however that I am not very surprised to learn that perfection does exist and that it is, of course, found at Delta. It is I who should apologize for not first giving credit where it was due.

I'm sorry that you had such difficulty finding someone other than an "a$$" with whom you could spend a trip at Comair and I do hope that you were lucky enough to have missed flying with me and were therefore spared from one more.

I'm truly happy for you that you find the folks you fly with now more to your liking and I hope that when you return you'll have many more pleasant experiences with those to whom the rest of us mortals can't hold a candle. Surely you are blessed to find yourself among such giants, all with the "right stuff".

I have had the pleasure of meeting many fine gentlemen who wear the Delta uniform and whose hand I would not hesitate to shake, it's the other 9,000 or so that bother me a little. That's probably my fault. Nevertheless I wish you all well and I'll try harder to see the bright lights of whom you speak.

Some of our finest moved on to other pastures and to Delta and we miss them. So did many of our worst, and we do not miss them. I do hope you were numbered among the former. However, since you yourself say that you apparently smelled $hit every time you stepped into a Comair cockpit, I offer a suggestion ..... take a look at your shoes. Meanwhile, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I've listened to your "peace" and I've said my piece. "May you live long and prosper."