Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Again, your answers were well thought out and clear. I do have some thoughts about them, of course. Sure, Delta wants major paycuts for our pilots, and getting you to take some also is a plus. But, I still think that management has watched your side of the industry crumble, watching the need for growth out weigh current pay scales. It would be crazy for them not to ask you for the same. I know that another reason for asking you for paycuts concerns ASA's current contract negotiations----the lower they can get you, the less they have to raise their new contract. Those two things you cannot blame on DALPA. That would happen if mainline did not even exist.

As far as Dalpa "forcing" the company to fly our aircraft and not "right sizing" the planes, the company is taking 9 more 737s from the desert, along with two more 767-200s. Sounds like we needed our capacity anyway, now they are bringing back more. The bean counters in ATL admitted, along with our VP of Marketing, that "we left money on the table last Summer." They wrongly parked the MD-11s, which could have brought in much more revenue from Europe. Sure, this Fall is slower, like most Fall seasons, and a little SLC downsizing was needed--about 20 flights. But, mainline is gearing up for the Winter season and a better Spring and then Summer again, and all or most of our planes in the desert will be utilized. The reason we still have furloughs is because we did park those MD-11s (which are rumored to come back), and the 727s and L1011s. I don't think we are against you getting a lot more planes, it is just we want to grow ALSO. I think that a 100 seater agreement could help you also---and that would benefit us all. Our 737-200s are not very efficient, and need to be replaced----but I think you want to replace it, and that would cause more of our jobs to be lost. We are down over 2700 jobs since 9-11--through furloughs and retirements. That is over 25%. That right there is saving the company a large amount of money companred to pre-9-11 levels, and we want the furloughs to return.

There is no doubt that everyone has to look out for themselves in this business. But, to say that we turn away and don't care about the regionals and their overall payscales is wrong. I know you don't believe this, but we did support you back during your strike, and were amazed at what happened. We were hoping that you would win. The recent RJDC suit, and the lack of support for our furloughs with regards to the resigning the seniority number issue has not helped as of late. Being "team players" goes BOTH WAYS. I am not trying to stir up more bad feelings, but trying to show you that some of our pilots do not feel very altruistic when it comes to DCI and their wants and needs at the moment. I hope that eventually changes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair pilots would do well to read the threads on ASA hiring and Drew Bedson's (ASA's VP of Flight Operations) comments.

Candidly, I would not believe Comair's promises of growth for pay cuts without objective information. Drew Bedson says the same thing the RJDC prognosticated years ago - that with the delivery of the final 15 aircraft in the Connection order - Connection is back against a hard scope limit.

Unless some agreement is reached with ALPA, Delta Connection growth is over. In addition, ASA may lose the ATR's without orders to replace them.

Like my friend the General, I do not completely understand why Delta would want to get rid of a profitable airplane, like the ATR. When I flew that aircraft we could go ATL-AVL on less than 150 gallons of jet A. Macon and Columus were something like 120 gallons (800lbs). That is nothing compared to RJ fuel burns over those short routes.

Good luck to everyone!

~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

Drew Bedson says the same thing the RJDC prognosticated years ago - that with the delivery of the final 15 aircraft in the Connection order - Connection is back against a hard scope limit.~~~^~~~

There are no scope limits on how many RJs DCI can deploy, on how large those aircraft can be, or what routes they can fly. The only limitation is on how many of those jobs can be outsourced. If Delta wants 200 RJ70s or 200 EMB190s flying at DCI they can have it, so long as those Delta passengers are flown by Delta pilots. Drew Bedson is only concerned with how many RJs can be outsourced to a growing portfolio.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

I thought that ASA was looking at the Dash-8-400 to replace the ATRs? Any rumors on that? When do the leases expire on the ATRs? There are probably some good deals out there on some used ones....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Sure, Delta wants major paycuts for our pilots, and getting you to take some also is a plus.

A plus? For whom? You lose $140 milllions in the quarter. We make $32 millions in the same quarter. That's why we should take some cuts also?

I do not see your having to make concessions as a "plus" even if they are more justified than in our case. I do not see us having to take cuts because you do as a "plus". I'm somewhat confused by your logic.

But, I still think that management has watched your side of the industry crumble, watching the need for growth out weigh current pay scales.

Again you confuse me. Our side of the industry is crumbling? Our need for growth outweighs current pay scales? What do you mean? I don't see our side of the industry as "crumbling". I do see your side of the industry as being under severe stress. You lost me. As for the other part of your statement, I'm even more lost. Perhaps you would care to clarify?

By the way, I regret the news of "your side" selling 11 737-800s, giving options for the sale of more and deferring your scheduled deliveries. That's not good news. Whose side is crumbling again?

I know that another reason for asking you for paycuts concerns ASA's current contract negotiations----

That is of course a possibility but I don't think its a reason. The Company can handle its negotiations with ASA. Granted, our taking concessions would not be beneficial to ASA, but I doubt that is the Company's reason for asking. As I said earlier I think their reason for asking is far more likely to be your demand that they do so.

The announced sale of some of your aircraft does not appear to agree with your idea that you "needed your capacity". Perhaps the Company needs more capacity in different types, but those sales and deferrals don't seem to equate to a need for more lift on the mainline.

I do hope you will offset that loss by returning some other airplanes from the desert, but overall it would not appear that management thinks your difficulties are in the past. Much the opposite seems true.

It may be that your current compensation is sustainable, but given the huge disparity resulting from concessions at United, American and USAir, cutbacks at NWA and CAL's already much lower compensation package, the pressure is coming from those factors and has nothing to do with the feeder operations.

I don't think we are against you getting a lot more planes, it is just we want to grow ALSO.

Your group IS against our growth, General. If it were not, you would not have the scope that you do. As you say, you want to grow also and you want to tie our growth to yours believing that will somehow solve your problems. IMO, that's an error on your part.

I want you to grow as well, but that will not happen until the demand from our customers requires more of your equipment types to fill it, not before.

When the number of RJs reaches the level required to serve the market and make a profit, we will stop growing as well. That may be close, but its not quite there yet or so it seems.

Our growth does not take from you and your growth does not take from us. On the contrary, as we get bigger there are more people to fill your aircraft. That keeps you from getting smaller and can even cause you to get bigger. That is the whole purpose of having any RJs at all.

You all are upset not because we are growing, but because your pilots are not in our cockpits. I'm sorry, but that was your doing not ours. You now regret those decisions and you want to reverse them at our expense. That just isn't possible. It is too late to do that.

We are not going to vanish and you are not going to vanish either. Our operation enhances yours. Your operation makes ours necessary. The two go together. There would be no "rub" if you hadn't decided, after the fact, that you now want our seats. That is something we will not give you voluntarily.

You do care about our payscales, General, but you do not care about them because they are "ours" or you want to "help us". That idea is a pretense on your part. You care about our payscales only because you believe that we will grow and you will not, if they are low. Your interest is self-interest and nothing more. I do not fault you for putting your own interests ahead of ours, however you must understand that, just like you, we put our own interests ahead of yours.

If we cannot reach a mutual agreement as to how those conflicting interests can cease to conflict, this dispute will continue. Your efforts so far have been geared to your dictating the solution on your terms. That only exacerbates the conflict, has not been very successful and I predict it will not be in the future. You simply cannot dictate the terms of a solution to the conflict. That is something WE must decide together. Until we can do that, the conflict will persist.

Being "team players" goes BOTH WAYS.

Indeed it does, and that's my point. Playing on a team does not mean that YOU make the rules and we have to follow them. It means that WE make the rules together. Otherwise, there can be no team.

We do not "make the team" by accepting unjustified concessions to compensate, no matter how small it may be, for your unwillingness to take what may well be justified concessions. We can't tell you what you should do, that is your decision. What you must recognize is that we also do not have to do what YOU think we should.

From my perspective, you've been trying to say that it is your bat, your ball, your stadium and you make all the rules. We're just telling you that if that's the way you see it, you are free to take your stuff and go home. We won't play that game. It is not YOUR team, General. It is OUR team. Until you understand that and behave accordingly, there will be three teams in the palyoffs; theirs, yours, and ours.

They like that for it makes possible the whipsaw. By playing us against each other, their team goes home with the trophy. I guess that's what you want?

I am not trying to stir up more bad feelings, but trying to show you that some of our pilots do not feel very altruistic when it comes to DCI and their wants and needs at the moment. I hope that eventually changes.

I don't want bad feeling either. Nevertheless, it is equally safe for me to say that our pilots don't feel very altruistic when it comes to your wants and needs either. After a decade of fending off your assorted assaults, we have grown somewhat tired of the act.

I join you in hoping that the appropriate changes will come before too long. Together we can be much more effective against "their team" than we can separately.

Regards,

 

[MedFlyer]

Our growth does not take from you and your growth does not take from us. On the contrary, as we get bigger there are more people to fill your aircraft. That keeps you from getting smaller and can even cause you to get bigger. That is the whole purpose of having any RJs at all.

Unfortunately, this is true in theory but not in practice. Comair has had RJ's at CVG for a decade now and has expanded massively adding hundreds of RJ flights to DL's CVG hub. Using your logic, all that feed from CMR RJ's should cause mainline planes to fill-up and allow for more mainline growth. But oddly enough, mainline hasn't grown at CVG...it has shrunk. Even when times were good, mainline DL continued to shrink at CVG. The same scenario has played out at SLC, DFW and MCO.

So show me where all of DL's RJ's have really led to mainline growth?

In theory, RJ's were supposed to feed the hubs and help make mainline stronger. In reality, the RJ's have been used by DL to replace mainline with a cheaper more flexible product. Even worse, as DL attempts to replace mainline flights with RJ's and cram passengers into RJ's for extremely long flight lengths (DFW-OAK, DFW-DCA), not only do they reduce feed into their hubs (fewer seats available), they send many frequent fliers and business travelers running to the competitors that still fly human sized planes.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Easy now bud, come on. I was agreeing with you that we needed to work it out. But, in some ways this really is about our bat, our ball, and our stadium because our PWA controls your growth. I know you don't like or agree with that, but it is the truth. When I said your side of the industry was "crumbling", I meant that the pay side of your industry is going to the lowest bidder---like the new contracts for Skywest and Chataqua---all going for growth. Delta management can see that. They will apply that to you as well. As far as Delta selling the 11 future 737-800s with options, they said it they were going to a "third party." Could that be a Lessor doing a sale-lease-back arrangement? Could be. We don't know. That actually frees up $500 million so we can maybe pay off some debt or maybe order something else. And, we are still getting 2 777s in 2005, which means there will be some INTL growth--which is better than nothing. We still have the 11 MD-11s in the desert, and some MD-88s that could be pulled out as well. I don't think we are "crumbling" either, we just had a huge Capt and FO bid that sees a lot of forward movement, especially for Captains.

As far as your pilots not feeling very altruistic, we already helped you out during your strike by giving financial support (along with the others), and not flying struck work----which has never really been acknowledged. Then our guys need help and not even an offer---no financial support returned, no bottom of the list hiring without seniority resignation like your sister airline ASA did, nothing. Well wait, there was an offer--but it had growth strings attached. I won't go into it anymore in this post-----you know my position---we did help you is some way---and you did not help our guys in their time of need. There is no way to get around that. That is why I don't see Dalpa rushing to your aid.

Again, I would like this to be resolved and for us to act like a "team" and both expand and go forward---but the RJDC mess and not helping our furloughs hasn't helped relations. Sure, management must love this, but they aren't getting what they want either---more CR7s. We have to come to some sort of an agreement that would benefit you guys and our furloughs somehow. (And after this CRM mess--I don't see any of them going to the bottom of any DCI list) I know you probably don't like that, but that is reality. I really don't know if Delta will buy any 100 seaters, and I don't know what Dalpa will do. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

Uh, let me give this the consideration it deserves...NO PAY CUT. I think that about sums it up for me!

 

[jetflyer]

I just think it's amazing how much money Comair is making. I know there's a lot of people that can't wait to see how much money Comair made in the third quarter as well, which was probably even more than the second. The economy is taking the turn.......

I think we should counter the companies proposal for the pilots and flight attendants to take pay cuts with a counter request for pay RAISES Shoot since we're doing so well, spread the wealth.

Or atleast we should use the words of Leo Mullin: " A contract is a contract!"

Jet

 

[doh]

General,
I have acknowledge the help you gave us and I continue to do so. I still don't acknowledge that the hiring decisions of CMR are the pilot's responsibility. Management has never cared what we thought. That should be abundantly clear from them asking for concessions. I take no blame for them not hiring Delta furloughs. That was management (successfully) pitting us against each other with a red herring.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Easy now bud, come on. I was agreeing with you that we needed to work it out. But, in some ways this really is about our bat, our ball, and our stadium because our PWA controls your growth. I know you don't like or agree with that, but it is the truth.

General,

From my perspective this is not a quarrel with you personally, it is only a discussion of the issues. You have some valid points which you believe are predominant. I believe that my points are more valid than yours. Thus we have a disagreement and a debate.

You are correct that your PWA in its present form controls our growth. That is why the legitimacy of our union negotiating those provisions that favor you and prejudice us is in question. I do not question the truth of your statement (above), I question the validity of those contractual provisions, and they are being challenged legally. We will both have to await the outcome of that challenge.

When I said your side of the industry was "crumbling", I meant that the pay side of your industry is going to the lowest bidder---like the new contracts for Skywest and Chataqua---all going for growth. Delta management can see that. They will apply that to you as well.

OK, that I understand and I can't say you're wrong. I can somewhat understand the Chautauqua (new) contract because of where they were before, but the actions of SKYW, ARW and ACA totally escape my reasoning. I think any pilot group that believes it can "buy" future growth by giving up its contract is extremely foolish.

AA, UAL and U all had legitimate reasons for making some concessions given the status of those companies. There may even be reason for the DAL pilots to make some concessions (that's your call). But those "regionals" had, in my opinion, no reason at all to do what they have done. It was a classic case of FUD. The fact that ALPA was complicit in several of those "deals" is also rotten to the core. I can guess why, but this isn't the place for that speculation.

Hopefully the CMR MEC will recognize several things, 1) There can be no more growth at DCI as long as your PWA remains unchanged (therefore promises of growth are a scam), 2) Comiar itself can't agree to "growth" __ Comair does not control that __ so unless Delta itself makes the "deal" it won't be worth the paper its written on; 3) The financial condition of CMR does not justify the need for concessions in its pilots' compensation package; 4) The folly of others should not govern CMR decisions; 5) Our brothers at ASA deserve our support __ undercutting their negotiations is not in our best interest or theirs; 6) The fact that the DL pilots would like us to "share" in their own concessions is irrelevant.

Since I doubt that DAL itself will agree to direct negotiations, and I doubt even more that ALPA would agree to that, the answer to the request for concessions should be: Not until you (Delta) have something realistic to offer in exchange.

We shall see how it all plays out.



I hope your future growth will meet your expectations and hopes and that all your furloughed pilots can be recalled to your own seniority list very soon.

General, I don't expect the DMEC to "rush to our aid". I don't even recall our asking that. You all are way too busy trying to use us as a bargaining chip in your own discussions with the Company. That I wish you would stop, but I don't expect you to do that either. You will not stop until the courts require you to do so. Maybe the courts will and maybe they won't, we'll both have to wait and see.

We have to come to some sort of an agreement that would benefit you guys and our furloughs somehow. (And after this CRM mess--I don't see any of them going to the bottom of any DCI list) I know you probably don't like that, but that is reality.

Meanwhile, I don't see anything even remotely similar to "Jets for Jobs" happening on this property. Perhaps I am misreading you, but it looks like you might be hinting at some form of J4J as a possible solution. Are you?

Maybe Delta will "order" Comair management to hire your furloughed pilots. If that happens it will be fine __ as long as it is in compliance with the CMR PWA. If you believe we have "CRM problems" now, which we do not [propganda from your management], I assure you that any attempt to place Delta pilots on the CMR list ahead of CMR pilots (like J4J) would create a lot more than "CRM problems". This is not Mesa, and I'm pretty sure that CMR pilots will not allow their own seniorty to be bypassed by Delta pilots (or any other pilots) under any foreseable circumstance. You would not do that and neither will we.

We do need a joint solution to the divisive issues, but that one isn't it.

Best regards,