Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

So, would you like to shake MY hand? I think that you would really like more than just the 1000 out of the 10,000 pilots we HAD at Delta. We actually have a pretty good bunch, along with the normal bad apples here and there---just like any airline. I read your previous post about you being happy at Comair. I think that is good, and I am glad that you are comfortable. But, if you had a chance at getting a class date at Delta in the future (5 years...whatever), would you turn it down? Would you turn down a chance to fly bigger planes with more pay, but be junior at Delta? Just curious.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[captainv]

Leo speaks!

My apologies for hijacking the "My airline is better than your airline" debate...

Story in the AJC:

After two years focused on keeping Delta Air Lines solvent, the Atlanta carrier's chief executive officer says it's time to work on regaining respect.

To do that, Delta must expand its route network and restore slipping customer service and employee morale, despite continuing cost-cutting efforts, said CEO Leo Mullin.

...

Separately, Delta is trying to kick-start stalled concessions talks with its pilots union. Top officials from the airline and pilots union are scheduled to meet Oct. 17.

They will "review Delta's financial condition," said Air Line Pilots Association spokeswoman Karen Miller, but no new negotiating sessions have been scheduled.

...

Delta has also been using smaller regional jets to reduce capacity and increase the number of flights at its four largest hubs, including Atlanta. Mullin said Delta will extend the strategy to its secondary hubs.

 

[rjcap]

Delta has also been using smaller regional jets to reduce capacity and increase the number of flights at its four largest hubs, including Atlanta. Mullin said Delta will extend the strategy to its secondary hubs.

What would be considered all the "secondary hubs."?

I imagine that would mean the substitution of RJ's for narrow body aircraft.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Secondary hubs (hublets?) would be LaGuardia, Washington, Boston -- "focus cities" which have a tremendous amount of traffic but are not traditional hubs.

 

[rjcap]

Secondary hubs (hublets?) would be LaGuardia, Washington, Boston -- "focus cities" which have a tremendous amount of traffic but are not traditional hubs.

Any hublets west of DFW ???

 

[comrcap]

I believe Leo meant to say "RJ Fest" to continue. I guess we're also getting back some of the RJ's that were leased to Skywest during our strike. SOOO I guess they won't be getting our flying if we don't "Rollover" on pay. Maybe they'll give them to Chataqua?.....Naaah, why share the revenue if you can have it all. I guess if we were anyMORE un-modestly profitable, we would get more than the 150 + RJ's we have on the property already. ASA? Hope so! Afterall, we are operationally integrated with those guys/gals! We should merge with them...DOH.
nhbizz...
Sorry you flew with some losers...I can count on one hand how many jerk CA's and FO's I've flown with in my 17 plus years at Comair....I think maybe you should look in the mirror! Maybe that chip on your shoulder is poking you in the eye!

God I love this Job!

 

[rjcap]

ASA? Hope so! Afterall, we are operationally integrated with those guys/gals! We should merge with them...DOH.

I am all for the merger but at the company's expense not the pilots.

One interesting note is that ASA has made little to no investment into its flight ops/mgmt infrastructure. I can only infer that they either don't care or don't plan on having the need in the near future.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

ComrCapt said, "Maybe they'll give them to Chataqua?.....Naaah, why share the revenue if you can have it all."

Just wanted to comment on this particular sentence. Chautauqua is a very dangerous competitor and it is important that everyone understand how fee-per-departure works and why it is such a formidable competitor for flying.

Lets keep the numbers simple. Lets assume that everytime a Chautauqua Aircraft completes a flight segment, Delta pays Chautauqua $1000. (just using simple numbers for an example).

Chautauqua, therefore, doesn't care whether they carry 1 passenger or 50 -- they get their $1000. It makes it very simple for Chautauqua to plan. They know their revenue. There is never any question.

Delta basically has purchased 50 empty seats for $1000. What Delta does with those 50 empty seats is sell them. The revenue that Delta recoups from the sale of those 50 seats is Delta Air Lines revenue!!! Every penny that comes from the sale of those seats goes to Delta minus the departure fee.

So the question then becomes:

What costs more?

#1. Chautauqua's "Fee", or...

#2. Comair Costs Including:

• Fancy new general offices including groundskeeping
• Exclusive contract for Flightsafety training facility
• Aircraft servicing by Comair ground-staff and Gate Personnel
• Comair maintenance, training, stores etc.
• Other associated Comair expenses of which Chautauqua has no corresponding expenses.

Since the REVENUE side of the equation is essentially the same (i/e Delta recoups the revenue from the flight), then the COST side of the equation is the variable. If the COST of doing business as Comair exceeds the COST of the FEE that Delta negotiated with Comair -- then we're at a disadvantage.

Delta doesnt particularly care what costs Chautauqua incurs -- they are only interested in the fee that they negotiated with Chautauqua.

So revenue-"sharing" is not quite correct. I continue to believe that Chautauqua is the single-greatest threat to continued growth of the Comair brand.

My opinion? They probably do it cheaper. Delta probably makes more money then they would with Comair equipment on the same city-pair. The Delta customer probably doesn't know the difference.

We should NOT underestimate Brian Bedford and Chautauqua. Just my opinion.

 

[Wacopilot]

Q

"Fancy new general offices including groundskeeping

Exclusive contract for Flightsafety training facility

Aircraft servicing by Comair ground-staff and Gate Personnel

Comair maintenance, training, stores etc.

Other associated Comair expenses of which Chautauqua has no corresponding expenses."



Last time I checked, CHQ cut their grass in Indy and they pay their rent...... And their pilots, they had training before they began flying...at Flight safety no less!

FurloughedAgain, that was a verry ignorrant post. ALL contract carriers have the same costs that Comair has. The fee for departure has to cover those cost and then some for the companies to make money. PLUS, these contract carriers pay COMAIR for the ground services,ie...baggage handling, flight dispatch....... You act like CHQ just has to pay the fuel bill and everything else is profit. Common sense is my only request.

 

[General Lee]

CMRCapt,

There you go again with your RJ Fest thing again. Didn't you read good 'ole Micheal Boyd's article stating the end of 50 seat RJs? (Yeah, I know he is paid by the airlines...) In the mean time, I think Skywest and Chataqua will grow a lot faster than you guys---because you are too expensive.


Also, On the Delta.net it was stated that our VP of Flt ops told the first returning group of furloughs that the SLC pilot base will actually increase the number of pilot slots--due to the moving of the DFW 737 to SLC, and DFW will gain MD-88 time also. He also stated that 9 737s will be coming out of the desert, along with 2 767s. Yeah, mainline is decreasing.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nhbizz]

Comrcap,

I will not get into a pissing match with you and surplus1, but if you knew me you would know I was the furthest thing from "having a chip on my shoulder." It sounds like you guys may have the "chip" and "$h!t on your shoe". Not one F/O that ever flew with me said anything like that to me or anyone. Most captains liked me except when I would not stand for being belittled. I will not mention names, but I stood up for myself, and all Fo's, when needed. Many capt's loved to show how much they knew and rub our noses in it. I was not an academy student, and had lots of experience when I got there, but Capt's still enjoyed watching us squirm to make themselves feel better. I am not saying you or surplus1 were one of them, but as a whole Delta has been a much more pleasant experience.
One final word. If you guys are such a great group of guys, then why do you spend so much time having to try and convince everybody of it? Actions would speak louder than words. When I came to Delta, I got nothing but praise being from Comair. Now, the reception I get is not so great. And it is not just from my brothers at Delta that give this reaction.

Fly safe.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

So, would you like to shake MY hand?

Sure General. I've already said I wouldn't mind being your FO (as long as you're not based in ATL of JFK). You seem like an OK guy, notwithstanding that you're often confused about some stuff.

But, if you had a chance at getting a class date at Delta in the future (5 years...whatever), would you turn it down? Would you turn down a chance to fly bigger planes with more pay, but be junior at Delta? Just curious.

That's a fair question. Truthfully it doesn't apply to me personally as the time I have left would not make it worth while at Delta or anywhere else. If I were a young guy I might very well do that, but honestly, Delta was never a "first choice" for me personally. Back when I was looking for work, I never applied at Delta or even considered it. Same thing goes for the nazis and the white hats. The culture of those 3 never appealed to me.

Now TWA, that was a class act and there was a time when I'd have given my left nut to fly for them. Unfortunately for me, they didn't think that I was the jewel that they wanted in their crown, but I did try. EAL was another that appealed to me and at one time National (before the white hats swallowed them). It wasn't to be and it didn't happen, so I found other places to hang my hat and trust me, I have no regrets about that. The principle airline that I flew for before Comair was a lot smaller than Delta, but far more to my liking. Airlines are sort of like colors to me. Some people like blue and others prefer red or green.

SWA is a company that has a great deal of appeal to me. Not now, because I'm no longer in the running. If I were, I think I'd like working there. I admire their spunk and I like their style. I also liked Piedmont (before the Allegheny merger) and Ozark too. Even Trans Texas/Texas International (thank God I didn't do that), or North Central (except for the cold bases __ I hate cold WX) would have been fine. On the other hand outfits like People Express and New York Air couldn't have made me taxi for them, let alone fly.

Over the years I've turned down "bigger planes and more money" more than once. Nevertheless, I still got to fly the biggest planes there were at the time and some of the small ones too. It's been one he!! of a ride and worth every hour.

If I were a young guy today I would take a hard look at leaving a mid-seniority position at Comair for a number on the bottom of the Delta list, or for that matter UAL, USScare, NWA or CAL. I guess it would depend on how many more down cycles my remaining time would allow. The thousands of guys on the street are, I'm sure, having second thoughts about their decisions. If I was 25 it would be a strong maybe. If I was 40 or even 35, moving over (I don't see it as up) would be a very hard sell. I think I'd rather be certain that my family could drive a new Ford or Chevy and pay for a nice but modest home, than to risk their security to live in the suburbs of Atlanta (in a house we really can't afford) and park a hocked Lexus + an SUV in the driveway.

Different strokes for different folks.

Back on the subject of concessions at Comair __ I see no reason why we should make them at this time.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Thanks for the response. You are probably right about me not knowing everything, even though I think so sometimes. There is plenty of ALPA stuff that occured before my time, and I never admitted to knowing a lot that went on. I am well read on this industry though, and I do know a lot about what goes on in the minds of the average Delta pilot in the ATL crew room. I do appreciate your opinions and views though.

I think that Delta will give away growth to the lowest bidder, and they think you are too expensive. I also know they want us to take pay cuts, and it looks like our new MEC chair will meet with them on OCT 17th, and maybe they will work out their differences. It will be interesting. Also, way back in my new hired class we had 3 guys in their upper forties, and one guy that was 50. They don't want all young guys/gals, because then they would all retire at once---leaving a huge hole in the seniority list. (like now---with the 281 retirements on Sep 1st---208 were early outs though due to the Gatt rate)

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FlyComAirJets]

FurloughedAgain,

First of all, welcome aboard, it is a privilege to have guys like you here at Comair.

Secondly, I want to say that you raise some excellent points regarding the nature of which DCI carrier gets the "growth." There are other intangibles to factor in as well.

Tomorrow's meeting will illustrate just how willing our pilot group is to sell out each other, their fellow pilots, and the whole industry.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm tired of this successorship language crap.

You have got to be kidding. Well then I guess you don't believe in protecting your interests in the event of an acquisition.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

FlyComairJets said, "Tomorrow's meeting will illustrate just how willing our pilot group is to sell out each other, their fellow pilots, and the whole industry."

Boy I sure hope you're kidding.

See you at the meeting.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ComrCapt said, "Maybe they'll give them to Chataqua?.....Naaah, why share the revenue if you can have it all."

Just wanted to comment on this particular sentence. Chautauqua is a very dangerous competitor and it is important that everyone understand how fee-per-departure works and why it is such a formidable competitor for flying.

Good post! Glad some folks realize this. I looked at their numbers during Wexford's proposed IPO of CHQ and the margins are slim, very slim. They do not have the operational infastructure in place to maintain these margins at these prices. With the extra expense of operating the CRJ, over the E145, and Comair's infastructure (Comair is a real airline in comparison) I would be that CHQ makes a lot of sense from a profitability standpoint.

Then there are also the advantages of liquidity. DAL can acquire the use of airplanes from CHQ, without putting them on DAL's list of liabilities.

 

[MedFlyer]

CHQ is very dangerous to CMR....a much bigger threat than SKYW or ACA.

Look at where DL send the RJ's...you can tell who the lowest cost carrier really is. CHQ gets the MCO operation which is by in large DL's lowest yield flying. Comair stays heavily focused on CVG and LGA....where DL's yields are much stronger.

Comair's being kept on routes where there's minimal competition...particularly from low-fare carriers...not a lot of low-fare competition flying CVG-ERI or LGA-PWM. But as low-fare carriers keep invading new markets, DL will have to find a lower cost way to compete. If Comair can't provide that, DL will find someone who will.

By the way, do Comair pilots have any furlough protection??

 

[DDpaysoff]

Quote by med flyer:

""Look at where DL send the RJ's...you can tell who the lowest cost carrier really is. CHQ gets the MCO operation which is by in large DL's lowest yield flying. Comair stays heavily focused on CVG and LGA....where DL's yields are much stronger.

Comair's being kept on routes where there's minimal competition...particularly from low-fare carriers...not a lot of low-fare competition flying CVG-ERI or LGA-PWM. But as low-fare carriers keep invading new markets, DL will have to find a lower cost way to compete. If Comair can't provide that, DL will find someone who will.""


MED:

Or like BOS-DCA, LGA-DCA or head to head w/ airtran and US air on the east coast. Maybe, the reason there is not a lot of competion on routes like CVG-MCO, CVG-JAX is becasue Delta can compete w/ a lower cost structure and add frequency by using Comair RJ's. Sure I know the casms are higher than a 717, but it works both ways, when revenues are weak the bleeding is minimal. I have to disagree w/ you 100%. I don't see much competion at all in MCO-RSW, or CMH-TPA, or for that matter DFW-TUL. Delta either can not compete i.e. DFW-TUL or is the only carrier in the market i.e. CMH-TPA. Chautaqua's porpuse is to maintain market presence in in low-yield markets. If you look at their route structure you will see that. If Comair wasn't profitable there is no way DAL managment would have doubled their size in the last few years (while losing hundreds of millions of dollars. Keep in mind the ability to finance a/c the last couple of years has something to do w/ Chautaqua being here in the first place. They do their thing we do ours, there really is no comparison right now.

 

[MedFlyer]

MED:

Or like BOS-DCA, LGA-DCA or head to head w/ airtran and US air on the east coast. Maybe, the reason there is not a lot of competion on routes like CVG-MCO, CVG-JAX is becasue Delta can compete w/ a lower cost structure and add frequency by using Comair RJ's. Sure I know the casms are higher than a 717, but it works both ways, when revenues are weak the bleeding is minimal. I have to disagree w/ you 100%. I don't see much competion at all in MCO-RSW, or CMH-TPA, or for that matter DFW-TUL. Delta either can not compete i.e. DFW-TUL or is the only carrier in the market i.e. CMH-TPA. Chautaqua's porpuse is to maintain market presence in in low-yield markets. If you look at their route structure you will see that. If Comair wasn't profitable there is no way DAL managment would have doubled their size in the last few years (while losing hundreds of millions of dollars. Keep in mind the ability to finance a/c the last couple of years has something to do w/ Chautaqua being here in the first place. They do their thing we do ours, there really is no comparison right now.

I don't necessarily see where we are disagreeing. You're right that CHQ was brought in to "maintain market presence in low yield markets." Some of those routes were held by Comair and some were held by mainline DL or Delta Express (RIP). Either way, CHQ was brought in as a replacement because they have the right costs, righ size equipment and took the financing burden off DL.

I'm not saying CMR isn't profitable. Historically, CMR has been profitable but its just that, history. If yields continue to slide and low-fare carriers continue to invade new markets, CMR's profitability will be in jeopardy unless they can lower their costs. If not, DL will replace CMR with someone cheaper...whether that is CHQ, ASA, SKYW, DL mainline EMB 190's or some other carrier (read JO's comments about building a relationship between Mesa and DL).

What happens to CMR if WN decides to set up shop in CVG? Things would get ugly quick.

I'm not quite sure why you say DL has no competition on routes like CMH-TPA or DFW-TUL? WN flies CMH-TPA nonstop and AA flies DFW-TUL and WN flies DAL-TUL. In both cases, yields are low and DL can't fill a mainline plane, so DL brings in its lowest cost option...CHQ.

MCO-RSW has no competition but there's not much traffic anyway. CHQ won that route because they have the right size equipment...ERJ 135.