Cincy Enquirer: Comair Wants to Cut Pay

[Pez D. Spencer]

Originally posted by FDJ2

The CMR pilots have choice to make, either make concessions, or watch their airline get smaller as future RJs and possibly existing aircraft go to less costly providers of small jet lift. Without scope over a single hour of DCI flying, there really isn't much they can do about it. Considering the fact that the CMR pilots are the biggest proponent of the elimination of scope, I find it ironic.

At the end of the day the CMR pilots will concede or shrink because none of the flying they do has any contractual protections, which I guess is what they wanted in the first place.

Too speculative. You can do better than that. Just posting to rub someone's nose in it?

As surplus pointed out (to me, none-the-less) in a prior thread, CMR management is essentially the puppet here, doing what the master says to do.

Shrink? I don't think so. Go back and read the article. Comair is "modestly" profitable. Delta is not. The only way to get DAL on the side of profitability is for the mainline to get in the black. The regionals are already there.

So, if the mainline pilots continue to hold scope over the regionals' heads, no further growth in capacity will occur at the regionals. So, who, exactly, cares less about the company? Comair pilots, that don't want to give up their salaries - who actually care about their junior pilots, and won't conscribe them to first year wages throughout their second year - or mainline pilots, like yourself? You are actually on the side of management here? You want concessions? How many regional pilots wanted mainline pilots to take concessions? They've asked once, and they'll be knocking on your door next. And where was the mention of how mgmt is contributing to the airline's expansion?

Surplus is dyed-in-the-wool Comair. Don't knock him for that.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: Just out of curiosity.

Since when is SkyWest getting more aircraft for Delta operations? Since when have SkyWest pilots become whores? Do some research on the TA vote. Get your facts straight. And by the way, check with your MEC about SkyWest pilots donating their vacation and user hours to Comair pilots during the strike.

TA? I did not realize you were a unionized pilot group.

A whore is a whore is a whore.

 

[RichO]

what costs less, if a man needs his lawn mowed, is it cheeper for him to have his son do it or to hire someone for $50 an hour to do it???? How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out???? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work? It keeps the profit inhouse and doesn't cost anything....just a few thoughts....\

Oh, PS.....delta has a master plan, and if anyone thinks that any decision we make at Comair will effect the future of where the RJ's go is wrong........just think how it would hurt the companies currently in negotiations if Comair bent over......hmmm.....now isn't that special.....

PSS....does anyone actually believe that in 5 years there will be outsourcing of the the flying to companies like Skywest, ACA, etc......get real, from a business standpoint....ASA/Comair takes all the flying nation wide......just as soon as the growth can do it...why do you think their growing so much....HMMMM...food for thought.....hmm, why did Delta sale all of the Skywest stock they owned????

 

[FDJ2]

So, if the mainline pilots continue to hold scope over the regionals' heads, no further growth in capacity will occur at the regionals. So, who, exactly, cares less about the company? Comair pilots, that don't want to give up their salaries - who actually care about their junior pilots, and won't conscribe them to first year wages throughout their second year - or mainline pilots, like yourself? You are actually on the side of management here? You want concessions? How many regional pilots wanted mainline pilots to take concessions? They've asked once, and they'll be knocking on your door next. And where was the mention of how mgmt is contributing to the airline's expansion?

Surplus is dyed-in-the-wool Comair. Don't knock him for that.

How are the mainline pilots holding scope over the heads of the regionals? Are you seriously suggesting that the answer to CMR's lack of scope is to eliminate mainline scope? YGTBSM.

I'm not sure what you mean by who cares less about the company. Are you talking about DAL or CMR? Because I could less about CMR. CMR is nothing more than one of many vendors bidding to supply mainline feed. CMR could easily be replaced because they don't have scope over a single hour of DAL code. They never had any and they still don't. It just isn't their flying to begin with. Do I want CMR to take concessions? The short answer is NO. Will management come knocking on our door again, probably, but they won't have nearly the leverage that is being held over the CMR pilots. While I hope that the CMR pilots stick together and take the pain in order to preserve their contract, I'm afraid they'll probably eventually concede when they see that the last order of RJs might go elsewhere.

At any rate, the CMR pilots seem to like not having scope. Tthey would never want to exercise that type of control over outsourcing, so I guess they would never want to limit a SKYWEST's pilots career by preventing them from under bidding CMR for the jets. I guess this is the RJDC dream come true.

 

[captainv]

First of all, does anyone think for a second that Comair pilots will give up $8 million a year in pay/work rules so that we MIGHT get more jets??? From our management, which doesn't have the power to decide where those jets go? Yeah, like I trust anything from management. But then our prez was nice enough to point out that admin wages had been frozen (Gasp!), while at the same time he's asking for a pay cut from us.

oh yeah, so we're getting used to hearing about how we need these cuts to make us more competitive, and yet the company is spend money on putting those fancy flat-screen TV's at every gate? aren't those suckers about $9,000 each?

and as for the $8 mil, and this isn't a swipe at mainline pilots, but doesn't DAL lose that much every few days?

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Just out of curiosity.

A whore is a whore is a whore.

AFELLOWAVIATOR, are Skywest pilots whores because they'll do it for less then you? Why do you think you're flying those RJs to begin with? Could it be because you'll do it for less then a mainline pilot? Think about it

 

[FDJ2]

what costs less, if a man needs his lawn mowed, is it cheeper for him to have his son do it or to hire someone for $50 an hour to do it???? How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out???? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work? It keeps the profit inhouse and doesn't cost anything....just a few thoughts....\

It depends on how much his son is charging him to mow the lawn.

"How can it be cheeper for a company to hire out? Doesn't it make sense to have family do the work?"

If someone is willing to do it for less and you don't have scope over it, it will be farmed out. You can take that to the bank. How many mainline RJs are there? Obviously it was cheaper to hire out.

 

[climbhappy]

you can't assume family members work for free , or for meal and laundry ,cable TV privaleges.

from an accounting standpoint.....sure it cost something, but we all know how majical accountants can be

upon hearing the scoop from a comair buddy of mine...its clear to me DAL pilots should take a pay cut first.

knowing its about to get ugly, 300 senior Delta pilots took early retirement and took their pensions in a lump sum distribution, because after seeing what happened to us air and united( soon to lose theirs) they opted out.............that was the reason for the recall!

 

[FDJ2]

knowing its about to get ugly, 300 senior Delta pilots took early retirement and took their pensions in a lump sum distribution, because after seeing what happened to us air and united( soon to lose theirs) they opted out.............that was the reason for the recall!

Climbhappy, the early retirements were driven by a record low GATT rate which greatly increases the retirement lump sum payout. With the GATT rate going up many DAL pilots near retirement took advantage of the larger pay out. No analyst is predicting that DAL is close to bankruptcy, so I hardly think that was the driving factor.

 

[sleepy]

AFELLOWAVIATOR, why do you refer to the SkyWest pilots as "whores"?

It just makes good business sense for DAL to farm out RJ flying to the least costly option, since it is not protected by any scope language. "Whore" can be a relative term. Why do you think you are flying any DCI flying to begin with? Could it be because you are willing to do it for far less then DAL pilots? I don't think throwing around terms like "whore" will be beneficial in the long run. If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause. You might have to take a pay cut and backwards seat movement in exchange for the flow through and scope protections, but it's all for the best in the long run.

How about this term, scum!

 

[Catbird]

FDJ2's Quote-"If the CMR pilots want to secure some DCI flying they ought to be working with the DAL pilots on a flow through agreement that would put DCI flying under the DAL PWA scope clause."

I guess the fact that the DAL didn't have a "Scope Clause" covering the DCI flying when DAL bought DCI is unimportant to this individual. Since DALALPA wouldn't accept ANY dialog concerning "Flow Thru" when DCI was purchased, they have continued this backward attempt at controlling the flying. The courts are in the process of determining who is lying. The pilots at DCI,PDT,ALG,ASA and PSA have seen DALPA pilots "working over" the pilots at ASA and DCI. Lets hope the judge see's it also and Duane has his pen ready to write some big checks for damages.
Wake up, the world dosn't rotate around DELTA pilots. Never has , never will.

Fraternally- CBird

 

[FLB717]

Surplus1,
You sir are so correct it makes my toes tingle with admiration.

FDJ2,
Man that is the reason you have to worry about DCI. Its hard to fall asleep at the wheel and get the car back on the road when you wake up in the ditch.

DCI Guys/Gals,
DONT TAKE A CUT. and NO FLOW BACK, oh I mean through.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Wow. You guys really like to throw the word "whore" around a lot when referring to SKYW pilots.

Here's a challenge for you. Name one pilot at SKYW that bought his or her job. That's right. Just name one.

One of the main reasons that regional pay has historically been very low is because so many of you were willing to shell out 10-12K for a shot at a 15K/year job. Had that not been the case we would all be making more money.

Sorry to turn this into a PFT thread but thats the cold hard truth about this industry and why the payscale is where it is.

Remember the old saying - "people in glass houses shouldn't thow stones."

 

[FDJ2]

How about this term, scum!

Should mainline pilots refer to CMR pilots as "whores" and "scum" because they under bid the mainline pilots on RJs? I don't think that that type of name calling accomplishes much. How about sticking to the issue. The CMR pilots are about to have a rude awakening on the value of scope. For years they've grown because they were willing to do the job for less then mainline pilots. All was happy, scope was bad it prevented management from outsourcing more and more flying to the low bidders. Now they are learning that other pilots will do it for less then them. OOOPPPSSS!!!!. Calling Skywest pilots "whores" or "scum" won't solve their little problem. It's just ironic that the CMR pilots who have worked so hard to undermine the scope protections of other ALPA pilots will now need scope more then ever.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

OK, you lost me. When did the Delta pilots "bid" on flying the RJ? As I recall, we were the first airline in N. America to purchase them.
Truth us, Delta pilots never "bid' to fly the RJ. So how is it that we "under bid" them?


Spin away, cause you know I'm right.