CE-750 Trans-Pacific?

[421Driver]

An owner is looking into the X for some international ops. Anyone fly the X to Tokyo, Hong-Kong, or Sao Paolo? Departing from central US (obviously with some fuel stops) What stops have you used? Any aircraft for a similar price with better range? Any planes that would save D.O.C. over the X on such routes, even with a larger initial investment?

 

[banned username 2]

An owner is looking into the X for some international ops. Anyone fly the X to Tokyo, Hong-Kong, or Sao Paolo? Departing from central US (obviously with some fuel stops) What stops have you used? Any aircraft for a similar price with better range? Any planes that would save D.O.C. over the X on such routes, even with a larger initial investment?

How about a Falcon 50EX, slightly longer range and has 3 engines...

A Citation X to Sao Paulo shouldn't be an issue from the central US... Stop in Maiquetia, Venezuela (Caracas) then on to SBGR... For Tokyo or Hong Kong you are probably going to want something with longer legs and a bigger cabin... I couldn't imagine being bottled up in that tiny X cabin for a ride that far...

 

[Pelican 10]

I agree with Falcon capt., If paying for a X might as well pay almost the same for a 50 EX and get better range, slight better cabin and a #3....If money is not too much of a problem go with a G-IV

 

[Rick1128]

Toyko

It really depends on how often the owner plans of doing this. Once in a great while, don't sweat it. I have done Japan with a Lear 35 and 36. Tight and cramped. Once was an owner trip that was a once in a lifetime trip. The other times were air ambulance. It takes a lot of planning and preparation. In the G4 is a snap, compared with the Lear.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you are talking Tokyo and Hong Kong from the central US you really want to look for something bigger than a Citation X.

Once a year...OK....whatever...but anything on a frequent basis would be rediculous in that aircraft!

Can a X go from PANC-RJAA? my guess would be yes, but still.....UAL First class from Chicago would be 100X more comfy! (hate to say it.)

I would vote for a used GIV. cant go wrong..... DA900 maybe? at least its not quite the coffin the X is.

 

[bestpilot]

It really depends on how often the owner plans of doing this. Once in a great while, don't sweat it. I have done Japan with a Lear 35 and 36. Tight and cramped. Once was an owner trip that was a once in a lifetime trip. The other times were air ambulance. It takes a lot of planning and preparation. In the G4 is a snap, compared with the Lear.

Duude, I think the owner must be from Univ. of Illinois.

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Hey bestpilot,


Just wait......U of I is gonna being steamrollin F.D.U. in about 90 minutes.

 

[G100driver]

Have considered a Legacy? Any questions just look up WSCofD.

 

[banned username 2]

Have considered a Legacy? Any questions just look up WSCofD.

Um, just the clarify, in a previous thread we determined that "Sh!tcan" is infact one word, so the proper abbreviation is WSofD...

Embraer Legacy Soon To Be Cleared to FL410
Embraer this spring expects to complete certification that will increase the service ceiling of the Legacy business jet from FL370 to FL410.

I thought WSofDDriver said he has been flying it at FL390 already... HHmmm... Has someone been a bad boy???

 

[Brett Hull]

Um, just the clarify, in a previous thread we determined that "Sh!tcan" is infact one word, so the proper abbreviation is WSofD...

Hey! Snakum got sent to the sin bin for doing the symbol to circumvent the censor trick.

Just like NHL refs - no consistency.

Seriously, though, WSofD just doesn't have the same ring to it as the WSCoD.
e.g., "Traffic at 12 o'clock, 5 miles is a WSCoD" (pronounced Whis-Cod).

 

[banned username 2]

Hey! Snakum got sent to the sin bin for doing the symbol to circumvent the censor trick.

Hhhmmm... Interesting... Well I guess we know which Moderator DIDN'T send him to "The Box"! (Do I have to ban myself now???)

Seriously, though, WSofD just doesn't have the same ring to it as the WSCoD.
e.g., "Traffic at 12 o'clock, 5 miles is a WSCoD" (pronounced Whis-Cod).

Yeah, I agree, and in the beginning I was referring to it as the WSCofD... We can start a grass roots movement to revise the designation! So when filing a flight plan, would the proper aircraft type then be "WSCD"??? (since the FAA will only take 4 characters)

 

[Diesel]

The X is built to go fast. That's it.

I explain to people it's like the concord. The cabin sucks so that's why it goes so fast.

Kind of the same concept. Although the cabin isn't bad just going to tokyo or nrt is a looooong flight. 1 a year no big deal. You can do it. Plan on about 3 stops going there. Maybe 2.

 

[Rick1128]

Duude, I think the owner must be from Univ. of Illinois.

Actually not. He had several stops to make on that side of the rim. We actually ended up in Australia when we finished up. It was a last minute trip. Thank Heavens for Universal Weather. And with his increase in business he now owns a G4.

Sometimes you just have to go with what you have. Its one thing if it isn't safe. Just because you as a pilot are uncomfortable is an entirely differnet matter.

 

[O-Line]

We operate a X and do some business to Hong Kong, and this is the best way to get there is you operate a X. Fly at .92 to SFO put your pax on a Singapore Airlines 74 http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/app/saa?hidHeaderAction=onHeaderMenuClick&hidTopicArea=CabinAmbience-FirstClassTour&currentSite=global and come home in time to play with the kids.l

 

[421Driver]

Anyone have a D.O.C. comparason of the X, DA-50EX, DA-2000EX, and G-IV? I probably could ask the manufacturers, but everyone here has been so helpful in the past.


Found some #'s, if they look out of line, let me know.
CE-750 ----- $1834
DA-50EX --- $1702
DA-2000EX - $3238 (high?)
DA-900EX -- $1783
G-IVSP ----- $2175

 

[TundraT]

Here is some old info-2002 (obvious if you look at the fuel price) hope it helps
I'd go with the Gulfsteam myself--Ive tried twice to format this so it iswould be readable but was unable....hope you can figure it out.

Direct Hourly Costs GIV Citation XFalcon 50
Fuel (at $2.33 per gallon) $906.37 $542.89 $591.82
Maintenance - Aircraft less engines
Labor $180.75 $133.50 $219.00
Parts $221.39 $91.77 $193.86
Engine Maintenance & Restoration $241.38 $287.76 $374.37
Thrust Reverser Overhaul N/A N/A N/A
APU Maintenance Service Plan $34.74 $31.08 $28.78
Miscellaneous Flight Expenses* $339.90 $262.08 $274.10
Total Direct Cost Per Hour $1,924.53 $1,349.08 $1,681.93

 

[banned username 2]

Found some #'s, if they look out of line, let me know.
CE-750 ----- $1834
DA-50EX --- $1702
DA-2000EX - $3238 (high?)
DA-900EX -- $1783
G-IVSP ----- $2175

These look close except for the DA-2000EX, that is way off... I THINK that is somewhere around $1600...

 

[421Driver]

I thought it was jacked up, found it on jetbroker.com Thanks!

 

[GVFlyer]

Here's another data point from Fall Conklin and DeDecker:

DOC/Range (Typical Weights)

G450 - $1744 hr. / 4350 nm

G350 - $1731 hr. / 3800 nm

G400 - $1811 hr. / 4100 nm

G300 - $1809 hr. / 3660 nm

GIV SP - $ 1864 hr. / 4137 nm

GIV - $ 2081 hr. / 4000 nm

F900EX - $1688 hr. / 4263 nm

F900 - $ 2012 hr. / 3638 nm

F50EX - $1432 hr. / 3242 nm

F2000EX - $1382 hr. / 3705 nm

F2000 - $1394 hr. / 3048 nm

Citation X - $1453 / 3098 nm (@M0.82)

The range numbers are computed with 8 pax in large cabin aircraft and 4 pax in mid-size cabin aircraft.

I included some older aircraft to show that as aircraft age their operating costs increase.

In my view, any of the above aircraft would be adequate for your mission except the F2000 (redundancy) and the Citation X (redundancy / reliability - GM and USBank have both recently replaced their X fleets due to inadequate reliability).

I don't want to start another debate about using the F2000 for extended-range over water flights. It's a risk management question and each flight department has to determine how much risk they are willing to accept, however, there are many flight departments that have F2000s and do not use them internationally - they purchased Gulfstreams, F900s or the big Bombardiers for their international requirements.

GV

 

[G100driver]

G-V, where did you get the range number for the Falcon? They differ from Dassault numbers. (BTW, I would tend to agree with what you posted)

Also, thank-you for not starting the illogical and irrational debate on the DA-2000.

PS thank-you for the Key's fishing tip. Mike was booked and he hooked me up with a buddy of his to take me fly fishing for tarpon and permit.

 

[GVFlyer]

You're welcome, glad I could help. Have fun!

The DOC / Range data came from Fall Conklin and deDecker which is what we use for third party data. Sales Engineering has more accurate data, but for some there would be a question of objectivity were that data used.

GV








~

 

[CatYaaak]

G-V, where did you get the range number for the Falcon? They differ from Dassault numbers. (BTW, I would tend to agree with what you posted)

Also, thank-you for not starting the illogical and irrational debate on the DA-2000.

I extend my thanks to G-V also. Illogical and irrational debates should be limited to comparing the WSCoD to the far-superior, glorious Workers' Yak-40....a Pilot's Dream if there ever was one. And if everyone insists on ignoring the floatability factor of the Falcon vs. the Inferior Rest even when the trip in question requires crossing the largest body of water on the planet, I'll just mention that when you take off in a -40, you'll probably land with just as many engines a Gulfstream lands with, PLUS those big Yak tundra tires give you more options in the event all three stop turning and you happen to be over frozen or soggy land. Personally, I put primacy on floating to manage risk, but the balloon tire thing rates a close second.

Clearly, commie-built French or Soviet products are the way to go, Comrade.

 

[Snakum]

Hey! Snakum got sent to the sin bin for doing the symbol to circumvent the censor trick.

Yeah ... but I have a pretty good idea why I was singled out among everyone else and their dog doing the same thing in every other post.

Minh
(Crack-smoking Devil-worshipper)

 

[421Driver]

GV, as always, your help is appreciated. If you could put approximate initial cost on your previous post with DOC and range, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[AA717driver]

Yaaak--You need to upgrade your ride to a Yak-42. Talk about a 'worker's paradise'!

We were parked next to a WSCoD in Luton last week. It had a registry that began with "O_-____" but it had Legacy painted on the tail. Maybe it was their European demo airplane. Or, maybe the owner wanted to distinguish it from the "Gulfstream parking lot" that Signature has become... TC

 

[CatYaaak]

Yaaak--You need to upgrade your ride to a Yak-42. Talk about a 'worker's paradise'!

We were parked next to a WSCoD in Luton last week. It had a registry that began with "O_-____" but it had Legacy painted on the tail. Maybe it was their European demo airplane. Or, maybe the owner wanted to distinguish it from the "Gulfstream parking lot" that Signature has become... TC

You can't really tell just by watching the movie, but Willie Wonka's chocolate factory is located very close to Luton, and aircraft registered in Oompa Loompa Land carry the the "O-" prefix, like the one you saw. The WSCoD is considered a large-cabin aircraft there, and that particular aircraft is used as a corporate shuttle for our little candy-making friends. It's funny to watch it taxi when they have Newbie Loompas on their first entry into "Big People Land" (as I'm sure you'e aware they're expat contract workers), and and see their wide-eyed, bright red faces pressed up against the pax windows.

I asked around a bit last time I was there, and my sources indicate they park that aircraft by itself so nobody sneaks on and steals the secret of it's propulsion system, which instead of kerosene apparently uses a Factory-brewed concoction made from Brazilian tree sap and lots of Lemon Fizzy Lifting Drink.

The crew is nice enough though. Whenever they stop dancing and singing in the crew lounge they're quick to hand out Everlasting Gobstoppers and such. All that racket can get annoying if you're in siesta-mode, however, and if you want to shut 'em up or go away to sulk just tell them "Hershey bars rule!". Oh, and don't ask about their women....they have some kind of inferiority complex and get all pi$$y if you ask things like "So tell me about the babes in Toyland?"

Hey....they make a Yak-42???

 

[G100driver]

Yes, but when they fly off in the "Wonkavtor" they circly Rottenberg <sp> Germany.


WTF do I know this .... My daughter and I watched it 3 times on the way to HI.

 

[2000flyer]

In my view, any of the above aircraft would be adequate for your mission except the F2000 (redundancy) and the Citation X (redundancy / reliability - GM and USBank have both recently replaced their X fleets due to inadequate reliability).
GV

You just can't drop it, can you? Easy now...just bustin' your chops a little on a slow Monday

Great numbers in your post!!

2000Flyer

 

[GVFlyer]

GV, as always, your help is appreciated. If you could put approximate initial cost on your previous post with DOC and range, I'd really appreciate it.

You bet, here you go.

DOC/Range (Typical Weights)/Cost(millions)

G450 - $1744 hr. / 4350 nm / $33.50

G350 - $1731 hr. / 3800 nm / $27.50

G400 - $1811 hr. / 4100 nm / $31.00

G300 - $1809 hr. / 3660 nm / $24.50

GIV SP - $ 1864 hr. / 4137 nm / $19.00 - $23.50

GIV - $ 2081 hr. / 4000 nm / $14.00 - $17.00

F900EX - $1688 hr. / 4263 nm / $34.65

F900 - $ 2012 hr. / 3638 nm / $14.00 - $16.50

F50EX - $1432 hr. / 3242 nm / $20.58

F2000EX - $1382 hr. / 3705 nm / $24.85

F2000 - $1394 hr. / 3048 nm / $23.15

Citation X - $1453 / 3098 nm (@M0.82) / $19.26

Just as another point of reference to let you know what other flight departments are doing - I came throught Kona (PHKO) Hawaii yesterday and this was what was on the ramp:

G550 - 1

GV - 3

GIV - 7

GIII - 2

GII/GIIB - 2

G200 - 2

BBJ - 1

Global Express - 1

Challenger 604 - 1

Challenger 601 - 1

F900 - 3

F2000 - 2

Citation X - 2

One of the GIIs belonged to Carlson Company which also ownes a 2004 F2000 which they do not use for overseas travel.

GV







~

 

[G4G5]

GVFlyer, Was that you on the ramp in Sydney last week? I stopped in to check out the demo.

Very funny, the 550 demo was parked next to the Global demo. Unfortunatly for the Global they were swarming with mechanics because the baggage door apparently fell off (came out of the tracks).