Can anyone understand "problems" with NWA's seniority list?

[Voice Of Reason]

Didn't NW bring Compass to the merger?
Didn't NW pilots take their jobs with reasonable expectation that they would have Compass as an option to flow back to if furloughed?
I fail to see how the same trolls on the DL side who think no one should touch "their" bases, planes, etc., deems Compass an option to them if they get furloughed because DL overestimated their Int'l (esp Europe).
So what is DL's is DL's, but what is NW's is former DL's too?
Funny.
Can't have it both ways

 

[Fly4hire]

Highly doubtful RA would reject our own SLI.

Didn't say that - said I doubt he will reject the lower cost proposal which is not yours.

(We did a lot of handshaking while being "pro-merger")

We all know you turned tail with LOA19. You are highly over rating a handshake with RA. Did you check to see if you had both nuts afterwords? (Ooops, forgot you didn't have them to begin with)

Using my logic, less DL pilots will be furloughed, period.

We are all supposed to be DAL pilots now, remember? Or are some of more than others?

It will cost DAL Inc. substantially more $$ to furlough using your SLI proposal - maybe that is a reason not to furlough, but the point is they will not reject our SLI because it's cost prohibitive.

ever gets furloughed, although up to 300 of your pilots were to be furloughed in your stand alone plan. (I have the transcripts to prove that)

And the transcripts that refelct your counsels logic is another of your numerous Red Herrings - that was written when oil was headed toward $140/bbl. What do you think DAL would be planning at that price of oil? Only reason you hadn't yet was cause you guys are a little slower to catch on down there.


(Are you guys going to make us do your Oceanic check point procedure that we taught you 15+ years ago when you were learning to fly over water?)

 

[~~~^~~~]

So what is DL's is DL's, but what is NW's is former DL's too?
Funny.
Can't have it both ways

Yes. The scope sections were merged including the pre-existing job protection provisions. If you buy a car, the loose change under the seat becomes yours also.

You don't understand Delta's staffing. The current AE has ~220 additional international slots. Lower capacity does not always mean lower block hours. There are two reasons CVG is becoming an international 767 base. Covering a need on the 767ER is one reason. Also, there is a deliberate plan to understaff the MD88. There are at least 53 open positions there that would be filled by new hires if not for the merger.

If by some act of legerdemain the NWA pilots were to take these open positions and still more were to displace Delta pilots then it would be fair to assume the Delta pilots were replacing the Northwest pilots on Northwest's replacement flying. Management does not want that, neither do Delta pilots.

As you pointed out, flow throughs don't work.

Mesaba has two year upgrades to the Captain on the DC9 replacement, CRJ900. That's what we've got

 

[~~~^~~~]

ever gets furloughed, although up to 300 of your pilots were to be furloughed in your stand alone plan. (I have the transcripts to prove that)

And the transcripts that refelct your counsels logic is another of your numerous Red Herrings - that was written when oil was headed toward $140/bbl. What do you think DAL would be planning at that price of oil? Only reason you hadn't yet was cause you guys are a little slower to catch on down there.

True, but where were they arguing the snapshot from?

Something's going on because Delta is running the MD88 category very short and we signed an LOA allowing this to happen during the merger transition. If it was not for the merger these openings would be filled by new hires. (Other parts of this AE leave positions understaffed if deliveries are coming next year too)

It is pretty hard to believe that with Compass and Mesaba's replacement of DC9's that there are not going to be a few extra pilots on the mainline side.

Your insult of Delta's management is flat wrong, and at least half of them are NWA management.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Dude,

Chill out. I apologized in private for my out of character rant and I thought we had kissed and made up. IF YOU WANT A PUBLIC APPOLOGY HERE YOU GO. I GOT PISSED AND LASHED OUT. MY BAD. We do have an opening in our chrashpad though if you would like to spend some time with us yankees. aybe you could bring gen lee. and we could have a hotdish for dinner(I think thats a minn.thing) As far as rds, its just easier than typing former delta pilots every time. 3 letters vs. 17. We have all kinds of labels, nicknames etc. How about FLAPS(f'ing light airplane pilots) PIMPS(pompous incompetant military pilots) ROPES(retired old pilot engineers) etc. I am sure there are some at DAL. Btw the mergers with Pan Am, and Western I can't believe there were not any nicknames both funny and offensive. And I bet you even have some nicknames for people at other bases. Atl, like msp are probably known as kool aid drinking ninnies that believe all doom and gloom or every sunshine rumour coming from mgmt. NY is more like dtw I am willing to bet. More blue collar ready to fight anytime that the msp/atl boys just don't understand. Slc/sea, far enough removed that they are in thier own little utopian world. Cvg/mem always worried thier nice little bases will be axed or turned into rj hell. Its not just nw that has labels. Fedex has purple/silver and I am sure some more derogatory names from both. What about AA and TW with the nAAtives "hired not aquired". Point is, we all have nicknames. No biggie. As I said earlier though, if dalpas case is so crystal clear, cut and dried, slam dunk, fair, preserves status quo, etc. etc... And nwalpas has been overreaching, dishonest,unprepared, etc. etc....You guys should have absolutly nothing to be concerned about and either the comms will come up with a list both will endorse or the 3 wisemen will, and surely they will see through our disorganized, dishonest, overreaching proposal and your fair, preserving status quo, in-line with alpa merger policy proposal. Why so much angst from y'all? It seems to me that there is only one way this will go and it was decided back in march and this is just a show to make us nwa'ers look like we tried.

Team Spirit?

Weren't you the guy who was already threatening to have your First Officers removed from trips and castrate others and ID me as a scab?

I have never heard a label for Delta pilots who were hired by Delta. Or, labels for co-workers that came from other airlines. Why are the Northwest pilots so intent to find a label? Are you practiced in the art of phrenology? At best, a stereotype is an illusory correlation. Let us just stop the bigotry before it begins.

If both sides were to concede that the other side was honestly trying to achieve the goals of ALPA merger policy then:

• The Delta submission preserved status quo on day one better than any other plan.
• The NWA looked to preserve a future status quo, based on attrition.

Either way it looks to me like you win. Why not just be happy, let your First Officer get a few legs to the outstation every now and then, and let the French be French?

 

[Superpilot92]

It is pretty hard to believe that with Compass and Mesaba's replacement of DC9's that there are not going to be a few extra pilots on the mainline side.Well we too just had an award with alot of upward movement. You act like 220 positions is alot but our awards are just like yours except we do awards monthly. Yours is over a couple months time. Both NWA and DAL are having awards right now. Also the "extra pilots" isnt very accurate either because we have lost around 400 pilots in a year. This is causing a shift in personnel from one category to another just to level the fleets out because most of the movement is from the widebody categories and CA positions.

Your insult of Delta's management is flat wrong, and at least half of them are NWA management.

You keep talking about the DC9s like its still the summer time and Oil was 147 a barrel. Times have changed and numerous Management honchos have said the same. You keep painting DAL in pretty picture and talking down about the NWA side. Honestly your portrayal of the NWA side is wrong and the portrayal of the DAL side is skewed.

In the end it doesnt really matter because we are all in on this together now. Your problems are our problems and vice verse.

 

[Fly4hire]

Something's going on because Delta is running the MD88 category very short and we signed an LOA allowing this to happen during the merger transition.

Maybe because they'll run the DC9-30's, 50's, and 80's as a common category? (sorry, couldn't resist)

It is pretty hard to believe that with Compass and Mesaba's replacement of DC9's that there are not going to be a few extra pilots on the mainline side.

There you go with the Herrings again - CPZ has already been capped at current levels, and Bastian and RA are talking less RJ's, not more. Rumor is as soon as the SLI is done they will announce DC9's coming back into the system.

Forget about old, cold, primitive - they generate revenue on both ends as opposed to fee for departure and have a way more comfortable cabin. At current oil prices it's a no brainer and we need the 100-120 seat lift. More importantly they are mainline jobs, of which more is better.

at least half of them are NWA management.

Exactly. All of us up in Da' North Country think you guys are going to find out the hard way about trusting NWA management if it's not in writing. (BTW, I'd be glad to be wrong) There is a reason our CBA is 3x as thick as yours, and it's not cause we like paper.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yes. The scope sections were merged including the pre-existing job protection provisions. If you buy a car, the loose change under the seat becomes yours also.

You don't understand Delta's staffing. The current AE has ~220 additional international slots. Lower capacity does not always mean lower block hours. There are two reasons CVG is becoming an international 767 base. Covering a need on the 767ER is one reason. Also, there is a deliberate plan to understaff the MD88. There are at least 53 open positions there that would be filled by new hires if not for the merger.

If by some act of legerdemain the NWA pilots were to take these open positions and still more were to displace Delta pilots then it would be fair to assume the Delta pilots were replacing the Northwest pilots on Northwest's replacement flying. Management does not want that, neither do Delta pilots.

As you pointed out, flow throughs don't work.

Mesaba has two year upgrades to the Captain on the DC9 replacement, CRJ900. That's what we've got

There is some discontinuity here,

No growth with the ER in CVG. Just renaming the 75/76 category that already exists in there.

Also you know the scope language and you continue to ignore it, why? Its just as conceivable that some of the DC9s might return and save RD pilots jobs if further international capacity is withdrawn. Even Bastian has recently said that with oil currently where it is that the DC9s will leave "later rather than sooner".

 

[Superpilot92]

Maybe because they'll run the DC9-30's, 50's, and 80's as a common category? (sorry, couldn't resist)


There you go with the Herrings again - CPZ has already been capped at current levels, and Bastian and RA are talking less RJ's, not more. Rumor is as soon as the SLI is done they will announce DC9's coming back into the system.

Forget about old, cold, primitive - they generate revenue on both ends as opposed to fee for departure and have a way more comfortable cabin. At current oil prices it's a no brainer and we need the 100-120 seat lift. More importantly they are mainline jobs, of which more is better.



Exactly. All of us up in Da' North Country think you guys are going to find out the hard way about trusting NWA management if it's not in writing. (BTW, I'd be glad to be wrong) There is a reason our CBA is 3x as thick as yours, and it's not cause we like paper.

Exactly! Also the domestic capasity cuts will likely be in the RJ ranks. The DC9s can do those routes and move the same amount of people with less frequency. (4 flights a day on a CRJ 50 changes to 2 flights a day on a DC9.) More jobs at mainline is always a good thing. Some of the RD guys just love to paint the DC9's in stink but the fact is they are hear and they are going to be nice to have around. They are good bargaining pieces as well for all kinds of negotiations with Boeing, airbus, and feeders.

We'll see what happens. Now that we are on the same teams hopefully we can all work together to ensure the DC9 flying is protected at the Mainline level.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I love DC9's. As General has alluded to, there seems to be another, better, reason for the DC9's from the desert rumor. It is a way to introduce a cheap competitor into negotiations for other airplanes in the 100 to 150 seat market.