CAL/ UAL Merger

[Tarzan]

Sorry, the earlier thread didn't allude to it. The press have this one in the grubby hands. Looks to be widely reported.

http://www.suntimes.com/business/2218052,CST-NWS-unitedmerger30.article

Looks like UAL furloughs back to 2000/1 (?) could make this one messy.

 

[turbinej]

Merging two senority list only includes active pilots on the list. Furloughed pilots are not included. There has to be vacancies at the new company for them to come back.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

that all depends what the arbitrator determines...

 

[cale42]

Merging two senority list only includes active pilots on the list. Furloughed pilots are not included. There has to be vacancies at the new company for them to come back.

That's not technically correct, furloughed pilots are most certainly included in any seniority list integration. Precedent has been that all furloughed pilots go to the bottom of the list but there is nothing that says it has to work out that way.

I think furloughs and widebody flying are going to be huge issues here. I don't know the details but I would say junior UAL furlough is around a 2000 hire and junior CAL furlough is around a 2007 hire, so the UAL furloughs stand to lose a lot of seniority.

Also UAL has about a 1:2.5 ratio of wide to narrow body flying whereas CAL has a 1:5 ratio or so.

Hope it works out for the pilots but this one has arbitration written all over it.

cale

 

[johnsonrod]

that all depends what the arbitrator determines...

Ask the USAir furloughs what happened to them in the Nic award.

 

[johnsonrod]

That's not technically correct, furloughed pilots are most certainly included in any seniority list integration. Precedent has been that all furloughed pilots go to the bottom of the list but there is nothing that says it has to work out that way.

I think furloughs and widebody flying are going to be huge issues here. I don't know the details but I would say junior UAL furlough is around a 2000 hire and junior CAL furlough is around a 2007 hire, so the UAL furloughs stand to lose a lot of seniority.

Also UAL has about a 1:2.5 ratio of wide to narrow body flying whereas CAL has a 1:5 ratio or so.

Hope it works out for the pilots but this one has arbitration written all over it.

cale

Widebody flying? Who has more widebodies? I see fences, but other than that the airlines are about equal, with certain strengths each. Also, CAL is stronger and that will be taken into account, since they are the ones in the driver's seat for this transaction. With the amount of furloughed UAL and CAL pilots out there though, new hiring will not be very soon at all. It may take years to call everyone back.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

It may take years to call everyone back.

This sucks big donkey dong for all of us regional pukes, as we'll have one less big carrier to apply to. At lease CAL would have been hiring soon, now with the UAL fuloughees it'll be YEARS before they hire. I'm talking American/TWA new hire years.

 

[rumorhasit]

This industry is getting more crappy each decade!!!! So much for the 65yr thing stagnant hiring for a long time

 

[NoJoy]

Yes between the 65 rule and merger after merger, hireing is going to be painful for the next few years. We shall see what regionals will profit from this merger. My bet is it will be SkyWest and ExpressJet.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yes between the 65 rule and merger after merger, hireing is going to be painful for the next few years. We shall see what regionals will profit from this merger. My bet is it will be SkyWest and ExpressJet.

The combined UAL/CAL will have massive retirment numbers once the age 65 effects are done. Just like with NWA/DAL, the numbers are pretty eye opening. Its coming, with that said, it will take longer at UAL/CAL to hire than it will here at DAL since theres so many on the street with UAL.

 

[rumorhasit]

I guess Republic is having a hand to forehead slapping moment, they couldve been a contender!!!!!

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Quick question. What is the scope at CAL? Is it 50 seat? Does Republic not fly for United under Shuttle America? What happens there in the event of a merger?

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Quick question. What is the scope at CAL? Is it 50 seat? Does Republic not fly for United under Shuttle America? What happens there in the event of a merger?

No more 70 seat contract awards...the current contracts will freeze where they are or....MAYBE...be reduced.


That's a longshot though.


[prays even though he's an atheist]

 

[CX880]

No more 70 seat contract awards...the current contracts will freeze where they are or....MAYBE...be reduced.


That's a longshot though.


[prays even though he's an atheist]

It all depends on what the company offers and the union. I'm pretty sure UA and CAL would like nothing more than to have 100 seat RJs flying around.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

It all depends on what the company offers and the union. I'm pretty sure UA and CAL would like nothing more than to have 100 seat RJs flying around.

UAL and CAL would love nothing more than to have 200 seat "RJ"s flying around and do nothing but intl flying....but the pilots would have a **** fit if that was brought up...or so I hope.

Scope has gone far enough down the drain. Honestly I'd love to see nothing over 50 seats powered by a turbofan but that's just me. 99 problems and that many seats is one.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Quick question. What is the scope at CAL? Is it 50 seat?...

Scope at CAL is 50 seat jets (with ratios for greater than 276 50 seaters) and 79 seat turboprops.

 

[CX880]

Scope at CAL is 50 seat jets (with ratios for greater than 276 50 seaters) and 79 seat turboprops.

Why allow 79 seat props but disallow 50+ seat jets? That makes no sense.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Why allow 79 seat props but disallow 50+ seat jets? That makes no sense.

Because only REAL PILOTS fly jets... Sacrasm...

 

[Erlanger]

It doesn't matter what CAL's scope is anymore. The new company is now called United and the scope UAL has, will be what will be.

 

[lookin4better]

No more 70 seat contract awards...the current contracts will freeze where they are or....MAYBE...be reduced.


That's a longshot though.


[prays even though he's an atheist]

The BEST course of action would be to have every jet with 51 seats or more flown by mainline.... a few regional pilots would be out of work, but thats business and life. Plenty of mainline pilots have been out of work for MANY years because of regionals flying their seats and routes. I hope for a CAL style scope in the merger.... but most likely a cap on the current # of RJ's will be the end result.

 

[CX880]

The BEST course of action would be to have every jet with 51 seats or more flown by mainline.... a few regional pilots would be out of work, but thats business and life. Plenty of mainline pilots have been out of work for MANY years because of regionals flying their seats and routes. I hope for a CAL style scope in the merger.... but most likely a cap on the current # of RJ's will be the end result.

Those furloughed mainline are being absorbed by regionals and jets for jobs programs so they're still flying. I would not be surprised if we see 70+ seat UAX RJs flown by regional pilots with furloughed mainline pilots. Kind of like compass.

 

[Jetjockey]

It doesn't matter what CAL's scope is anymore. The new company is now called United and the scope UAL has, will be what will be.

Doesn't quite work that way Kentucky. Re: Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA). A new agreement is forthcoming, and I'm sure you will see changes. Get that "heavy" RJ time while you can.

 

[lookin4better]

Doesn't quite work that way Kentucky. Re: Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA). A new agreement is forthcoming, and I'm sure you will see changes. Get that "heavy" RJ time while you can.

Love it!

 

[Whydoitry]

Not to throw any cold water on the "CAL scope will prevail" crowd, but how do you see management agreeing to it? It's going to have to make economic sense, and at the very least the new UAL team will point to DAL and say "we need to be competitive with them". Of course we all know that there is more to costs than just rates, so will the new UAL pilot group make concessions to work rules and other benefits to regain the 70 seat flying? If they can put the genie back in the bottle great, I'm just a little skeptical.

 

[rumorhasit]

No more 70 seat contract awards...the current contracts will freeze where they are or....MAYBE...be reduced.


That's a longshot though.



[prays even though he's an atheist]

I believe scope is 50 seat on the jet, that's why xjt stayed with the 50 seaters.

 

[Jetjockey]

Can we put the genie back in the bottle? that would take a lot of horsepower. Can we fence in the genie, keep him on a short leash and make sure he doesn't reproduce??? YES.

Freeze the number of 70 seaters right where they are at. When contracts come up, they are not renewed. No replacements, no more growth. Anything in the future over 50 seats belongs to mainline.

 

[snap145]

so all those pretty new XJT United paint jobs are gonna go right back in the paint shop and get swapped back to CAL Express???

 

[CX880]

Freeze the number of 70 seaters right where they are at. When contracts come up, they are not renewed. No replacements, no more growth. Anything in the future over 50 seats belongs to mainline.

Why would they even think of granting that? ALPA and especially CAL/UAL alpa is the senior pilots union. They will come up with 10-20% pay raises and the pilots will cave.

 

[Jetjockey]

Why would they even think of granting that? ALPA and especially CAL/UAL alpa is the senior pilots union. They will come up with 10-20% pay raises and the pilots will cave.

Do you even work at either company? If so, do you go to union meetings, talk to reps, serve on a committee?

You're wrong. Scope was a huge issue at CAL before the merger. Scope is a huge issue at UAL post-bankruptcy, and you think a small percentage of close retirement age guys are going to make those concerns just go away with a meager 10% raise? Even us mid range guys care about the contined "outsourcing" of our jobs. Even if they offered $1200 per hour, it don't matter one bit if you loose jobs!

Scope in on the radar screen more than you realize.

 

[Flash]

Not to throw any cold water on the "CAL scope will prevail" crowd, but how do you see management agreeing to it? It's going to have to make economic sense, and at the very least the new UAL team will point to DAL and say "we need to be competitive with them". Of course we all know that there is more to costs than just rates, so will the new UAL pilot group make concessions to work rules and other benefits to regain the 70 seat flying? If they can put the genie back in the bottle great, I'm just a little skeptical.

I would tend to side with the policies of the airline that has been more profitable in the last ten years over the one that can't seem to make money in any environment.