CAL/UAL Merger Done Next Week

[UAL-GSO]

All I can say is that there better be no furloughed UAL pilot senior to me on the new list. I was a DEC 2005 CAL hire

I've met a lot of good people at CAL through the years. I guess your always going to have a few that slip through the cracks.

Nothing a code red won't fix...

 

[Mr.B]

All I can say is that there better be no furloughed UAL pilot senior to me on the new list. I was a DEC 2005 CAL hire

HAHAHa...another internet tough-guy. Tool.

 

[Plug]

What uniforms will the combined carrier wear?

 

[Mr.B]

What uniforms will the combined carrier wear?

I'll wear my football helmet if that SFR tough guy shows up. Scary man.

 

[Jetjockey]

I'll wear my football helmet if that SFR tough guy shows up. Scary man.

No need for a football helmet, SFR is a self-proclaimed pillow biter.

 

[EL10]

Sure, UAL gave up scope with a gun to there heads. Sure, UAL parked the guppies in anticipation of the merger. Sure, UAL has more wide bodies. Sure, CAL protected scope and a frozen pension in exchange for work rules and pay.

At the end of the day the seniority list will be closer to relative seniority then DOH. The question will be are the furloughs of each included in that calculation? Either way if they are not one thing fir sure everyone needs to pull for is that furloughs return with accrued longevity. While this will not speed up the Captain pay, it does at least provide for compensation while being away. This is the only way that the UAL second time furlougheies would be worth their while to go back. Give them the pay scale that they would have been making, vacation they would have earned. Who would not fight for that for theses guys?

Same goes for if any stock is part of the deal. Include them in the distribution, they are the ones that the merger has had the most costly toll on.

 

[CheapFlyer]

If they want to keep the 70 seaters etc, they can bring them to mainline... flown by mainline pilots...

Yogi

Exactly. I don't know why people keep saying you can't get scope back. All these RJ operators are on 2-7 year contracts. Hopefully, we can get (force) the company to not renew any future 70 seat contracts. All future "bids" will go to mainline. I don't see why this can't be used to bring back all the furloughees.

 

[General Lee]

Flopgut: You assume that the status-quo is an option. Unfortunately, from a practical perspective, you don't get to make that choice. This decision to enter into a merger transaction is management's to make. I commend CAL ALPA on the strength of their scope. Unfortunately, having a historically strong scope doesn't mean you don't have to spend bargaining capital now and in the future to sustain it.

Your company may be merging with a company that has existing contracts worth hundreds of millions (perhaps billions) of dollars to outsource 70 seat jets. So what are your choices? You can keep your scope, but that several hundred million will come from somewhere. Suppose the 70 seat contracts are worth $750 million. You will pay a premium to cancel them, since the company would be subject to litigation as well as significantly increased operating costs. So what are you willing to spend to cancel those contracts and dial back the scope clause? $1 Billion? I don't think ALPA has $1 Billion in bargaining capital in this situation. My understanding is that the combined company is planning to spend ~$500 million to appease labor during the merger.

Despite our best hopes, this is a bargaining process. The company has to give up something, and so does labor. Sure, the balance may be lopsided from time to time (C2000, Bankruptcy, etc) but eventually things return to equilibrium. It is tempting to believe that ALPA holds all the cards now, and that the company should give the pilots everything they ask for. That type of thinking is what causes the massive peaks and troughs in this career.

Clearly, CAL and UAL ALPA can accomplish a lot given their strong bargaining position. But don't forget the value of the merger to your career. The merger makes sense for the long term viability and quality of career for most of the pilot group at the combined company. CAL seems to have bright prospects for now, but don't kid yourself-so did every other airline now on the trash heap of history. You want management to act aggressively and capitalize on opportunities for growth and cost savings like this merger, otherwise they start looking to labor to make up the difference. Given the rumored structure of the proposed merger, the companies can combine relatively inexpensively at the beginning of an economic recovery. Truthfully, this is the best combination CAL can ever hope for and the timing couldn't be better. If CAL ALPA stops the merger now, they may be forced to revisit a less favorable merger in the future under worse terms. You can prevent further growth of 70 seaters at the combined company and achieve a significant improvement in QOL and pay. But dialing back scope would cost more than any pilot is willing or should be willing to pay.

You seem to forget that the CAL pilots CAN VETO THIS. It is in their contract. So, scope is THEIR'S to lose. This is up to them. If they want to approve 70 seaters, they can. They can also state NO DEAL unless they get a pay raise, along with tighter scope and 70 seaters going away when the contracts expire. If they don't, it is THEIR own fault. If you have leverage, you should USE it. This isn't BK court with a judge watching.

And BTW, your SLI will be fairly close to relative, with some fences around 744s probably. Both airlines are legacies with widebodies and not a lot of smaller narrowbodies. Everything is about the same except the 744s. Both ordered 787s, with CAL probably getting them first, which might have a short fence around them for a couple years. (JMO)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You mean kind of how the Delta pilots squandered the once in a career opportunity during the NW merger?

.......Says the "major" airline pilot flying for jet blew!

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

You seem to forget that the CAL pilots CAN VETO THIS. It is in their contract. So, scope is THEIR'S to lose. This is up to them. If they want to approve 70 seaters, they can. They can also state NO DEAL unless they get a pay raise, along with tighter scope and 70 seaters going away when the contracts expire. If they don't, it is THEIR own fault. If you have leverage, you should USE it. This isn't BK court with a judge watching.

And BTW, your SLI will be fairly close to relative, with some fences around 744s probably. Both airlines are legacies with widebodies and not a lot of smaller narrowbodies. Everything is about the same except the 744s. Both ordered 787s, with CAL probably getting them first, which might have a short fence around them for a couple years. (JMO)



Bye Bye--General Lee

Don't forget that CAL's orders are for growth, whereas UAL's orders are for replacement. Something has to be said for career expectations. CAL has 99 hires that hold CA, UAL's 99 hires are furloughed. So that is one more factor that needs to be taken into consideration!

Yogi

 

[thor2j]

If this does happen, it's going to get ugly. Since this will most likely be a relative seniority with a few tweaks, 2005 CAL guys are going to go ahead of early 90 something hires. I am sure the UAL guys are not going to like this nor take it laying down.

 

[contrail67]

You seem to forget that the CAL pilots CAN VETO THIS. It is in their contract. So, scope is THEIR'S to lose. This is up to them. If they want to approve 70 seaters, they can. They can also state NO DEAL unless they get a pay raise, along with tighter scope and 70 seaters going away when the contracts expire. If they don't, it is THEIR own fault. If you have leverage, you should USE it. This isn't BK court with a judge watching.

And BTW, your SLI will be fairly close to relative, with some fences around 744s probably. Both airlines are legacies with widebodies and not a lot of smaller narrowbodies. Everything is about the same except the 744s. Both ordered 787s, with CAL probably getting them first, which might have a short fence around them for a couple years. (JMO)



Bye Bye--General Lee

I believe an agreed upon contract in the end is exactly that...not sure I would say that either group is in a drivers seat...they are together in it. And yes the ball is in the pilots (UAL and CAL's) court.

United pilots will not just be sitting there without a STRONG position. Together alot can be accomplished.

 

[General Lee]

Don't forget that CAL's orders are for growth, whereas UAL's orders are for replacement. Something has to be said for career expectations. CAL has 99 hires that hold CA, UAL's 99 hires are furloughed. So that is one more factor that needs to be taken into consideration!

Yogi

Same thing at DL/NWA. It pretty much went relative with some plug and play for retirements. It didn't matter if guys were hired before or after each other, if you were in the bottom 88% at one company, you became pretty close to that at the combined, plus or minus 1 or 2%. It all comes down to what the arbitrators decide, and that includes precedent like Nicelau.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I believe an agreed upon contract in the end is exactly that...not sure I would say that either group is in a drivers seat...they are together in it. And yes the ball is in the pilots (UAL and CAL's) court.

United pilots will not just be sitting there without a STRONG position. Together alot can be accomplished.

I would think the UAL guys would be HAPPY that the CAL guys have some leverage. It will work out better for BOTH of them. The UAL guys don't have as much enforcement power in their own contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[justin15e]

Same thing at DL/NWA. It pretty much went relative with some plug and play for retirements. It didn't matter if guys were hired before or after each other, if you were in the bottom 88% at one company, you became pretty close to that at the combined, plus or minus 1 or 2%. It all comes down to what the arbitrators decide, and that includes precedent like Nicelau.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The demographics of CAL/UA is way more like USAir/AWA than DL/NWA. Had neither airline furloughed any pilots, you would have an easy relative seniority SLI like DL/NWA.

However,that didn't happen. DL/NWA didn't have anyone on furlough that hadn't already been recalled once. It's not even like there is a proportional number of CAL pilots to UA on furlough. With UAs furloughs, it would likely take 5+ years of GROWTH or large retirement numbers to bring that many pilots back. For CAL, those pilots will likely be recalled in the fall due to 11 or so NEW growth 737s and 2 new growth 777s.

UA pilots will think they deserve a better spot on the list since they were all hired late 90s. CAL on the other hand went thru a hiring boom from 2005-2008. UA hired a few hundred in late 07 early 08.

This will be a mess. I hope CAL walks away when they realize how much it would hurt them.

 

[ATRCA]

Don't forget that CAL's orders are for growth, whereas UAL's orders are for replacement. Something has to be said for career expectations. CAL has 99 hires that hold CA, UAL's 99 hires are furloughed. So that is one more factor that needs to be taken into consideration!

Yogi

I think the most junior 73 CA at CAL was hired in 2001 and is still flying the line in the left seat. UAL has guys without positions hired in 98. I believe a 98 hire at CAL right now is a bottom 756 CA!!! Talk about different career expectations. CAL's getting 13 new frames this year and 17 new frames next year. This is where the "integration" is going to get really ugly and where the two sides are going to walk away from each other. There will be no unified CAL/UAL MEC. Just watch. Just wait until the CAL MEC receives the UAL MEC's proposed list that puts their current furloughees on property and removes CAL guys from their seats. This dream of unification will end with a very loud thud!

We should all be saving for lawyers, we're going to need them.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

They have been talking for over 2 years now...don't you think they have thought about this. Let's TRY to work it out.

 

[chppr5]

Don't forget that CAL's orders are for growth, whereas UAL's orders are for replacement. Something has to be said for career expectations. CAL has 99 hires that hold CA, UAL's 99 hires are furloughed. So that is one more factor that needs to be taken into consideration!

Yogi

How do you know they are for growth? Kelner said so? Has CAL announced new destinations or more frequncies for the new airframes? Until they are on the property, depending on fuel prices, economy, other factors, you really don't know wheather they are for growth or replacement. As to the SLI, put 10 yr fences around the domiciles. I don't know many UAL guys wanting to go to IAH or EWR.

 

[ATRCA]

They have been talking for over 2 years now...don't you think they have thought about this. Let's TRY to work it out.

I'm sure they will "try" as you say. I just know that "try" will fail on this issue. It's nothing personal. I can understand why UAL would want it's guys back on property in front of our 98 hire 756 CA, I'm just saying that it's not gonna work out. I think it's the duty of the UAL MEC to fight for every single seniority number just like I think the CAL MEC needs to do the same. When they do, they will no longer agree on many things and this mess will go to binding arbitration which will lead to years if not decades of ugliness. That's just how this works. It's neither good nor bad, it just is.........we're gonna have to live with it but it won't be nice. Not now, not ever. I don't know a single person at CAL that wants anything to do with merging with UAL. NOT ONE. Those folks are going to be pissed and they're going to be looking for a fight. That's how mergers work. That's how this one will work. It will happen anyway but it won't be something any of us will be proud of.

 

[eaglesview]

Lots and lots of chest thumping going on. Everyone talking about career expectation this and that. I have said before there is no such thing as a career expectation in this business. It can change tomorrow. As for either side not wanting to merge. reality will dictate. If the DAL/NWA model proves to be more profitable it would be silly not to merge. Lets not get short sighted. In my career Co has gone from the scum airline to a much better one. United was at the top now look at the perception of our airline. In fact USAir, when I was looking for that airline job was the cream of the crop.

I think the thing we have going for us is hopefully none of the hotheads on hear from either side will actually be involved in the process.

 

[FDJ2]

The demographics of CAL/UA is way more like USAir/AWA than DL/NWA. Had neither airline furloughed any pilots, you would have an easy relative seniority SLI like DL/NWA.

Not picking on you, but let's stop calling it "relative seniority" SLI, because they haven't been.

The seniority lists have been drawn up based on "category/status ratios."

It also doesn't matter whether the lists resemble the DL/NWA lists or the USAir/AWA lists, the fundamental building blocks remain the same and the first block is to define the "categories" for building the lists.

However,that didn't happen. DL/NWA didn't have anyone on furlough that hadn't already been recalled once. It's not even like there is a proportional number of CAL pilots to UA on furlough. With UAs furloughs, it would likely take 5+ years of GROWTH or large retirement numbers to bring that many pilots back. For CAL, those pilots will likely be recalled in the fall due to 11 or so NEW growth 737s and 2 new growth 777s.

Not relavent. Projections into the future will hold little weight after the merger is announced. I'm sure anyone recalled after the date of the merger announcement won't be furloughed to make room for someone who was on furlough on that date. Beyond that, they both brought the same thing to the merger, a recall number.

UA pilots will think they deserve a better spot on the list since they were all hired late 90s. CAL on the other hand went thru a hiring boom from 2005-2008. UA hired a few hundred in late 07 early 08.

The date a pilot was hired will also mean very little, other than establish his place on his premerger list. When integrating seniority lists what's important is what your date of hire can purchase on your premerger list, if it's wide bodied F/O on a stove piped list, than that's the equity value brought to the merger.

This will be a mess. I hope CAL walks away when they realize how much it would hurt them.

It would be a mess if you make it one, if you allow self interest and emotion to trump reason and logic.

If there's a merger, and both pilot groups accept the fact that if this goes to arbitration the lists will resemble a category/status ratioed list, then you can begin the process of narrowing the differences by adjusting the lists for "expectations" and "longevity", but those adjustments will be minor. My guess is that for the most part UAL's longevity will be offset by CAL's brighter expectations. Probably some "pull out/plug in" formula similar to the one used at DAL/NWA.

 

[General Lee]

The demographics of CAL/UA is way more like USAir/AWA than DL/NWA. Had neither airline furloughed any pilots, you would have an easy relative seniority SLI like DL/NWA.

However,that didn't happen. DL/NWA didn't have anyone on furlough that hadn't already been recalled once. It's not even like there is a proportional number of CAL pilots to UA on furlough. With UAs furloughs, it would likely take 5+ years of GROWTH or large retirement numbers to bring that many pilots back. For CAL, those pilots will likely be recalled in the fall due to 11 or so NEW growth 737s and 2 new growth 777s.

UA pilots will think they deserve a better spot on the list since they were all hired late 90s. CAL on the other hand went thru a hiring boom from 2005-2008. UA hired a few hundred in late 07 early 08.

This will be a mess. I hope CAL walks away when they realize how much it would hurt them.

I think the arbitrators will look at everyone on the current list, put them together in relative seniority with category and status also thrown in there, fence the 744s for 5 years, and then deal with all of the furloughed pilots. It probably doesn't matter to arbitrators if they have been furloughed once or twice. If they are not on the property now, then they will be at the bottom in some order. That may sound harsh, but that is probably what will happen.

BTW, FDJ2 knows a lot more about this than I do.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATRCA]

Lots and lots of chest thumping going on. Everyone talking about career expectation this and that. I have said before there is no such thing as a career expectation in this business. It can change tomorrow. As for either side not wanting to merge. reality will dictate. If the DAL/NWA model proves to be more profitable it would be silly not to merge. Lets not get short sighted. In my career Co has gone from the scum airline to a much better one. United was at the top now look at the perception of our airline. In fact USAir, when I was looking for that airline job was the cream of the crop.

I think the thing we have going for us is hopefully none of the hotheads on hear from either side will actually be involved in the process.

If you could read Calforums I doubt you would consider this discussion to be all that "hot" and I'm sure your forum contains similar theatrics. Calforums is not an anonymous forum and posters use their real names so I don't think there's anywhere near the hyperbole on there that one might imagine. Most of the discussion is real and posters are expressing their real concerns and contempt. I think the heat is being kept below the water line for now but it's there and it will surface.

The MEC's will have their work cut out for them if all out brawling is to be prevented. We'll see. It can probably be contained for a while but once the two side agree to disagree, It'll be on............and we'll all have to live with it one way or another. I just don't see any company picnics taking place for the next few years.

I think the other important thing to realize is that there is very little support for this merger on the CAL side whereas it seems that many at UAL favor it, if only to rid themselves of terrible management (which appears to not be happening). When expectations collide with animosity (at CAL) that's when things will get sideways. If the two employee groups both believed that merging was mutually beneficial, I think we'd see something very different take place. CAL employees do not see merging with UAL as being in "their" interest. They've been open about that and Smigel was open about his employees desires to remain independent in 2008. Nothing has changed. His people didn't want it then and don't want it now. He's going to force it on them and that never plays out well.

 

[bearcat]

The merger is going to happen with or without our inputs. However, the only way to successfully merge the 2 companies is through leadership. Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to collectively merge two sides into one....that is leverage against the company for an outstanding contract.

With that being said, I don't want a merger (CAL 05 hire) at all, but if we do I have to live with it. The sooner we work together, the better our lives will be.

Seniority will go to arbitration and will most likely benefit CAL pilots. This isn't like US where both companies were hours from BK (well at least 1 and the other not far off). There will be fences on both sides for domicile and equipment. There will be pissed off people.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

If you could read Calforums I doubt you would consider this discussion to be all that "hot" and I'm sure your forum contains similar theatrics. Calforums is not an anonymous forum and posters use their real names so I don't think there's anywhere near the hyperbole on there that one might imagine. Most of the discussion is real and posters are expressing their real concerns and contempt. I think the heat is being kept below the water line for now but it's there and it will surface.

The MEC's will have their work cut out for them if all out brawling is to be prevented. We'll see. It can probably be contained for a while but once the two side agree to disagree, It'll be on............and we'll all have to live with it one way or another. I just don't see any company picnics taking place for the next few years.

I think the other important thing to realize is that there is very little support for this merger on the CAL side whereas it seems that many at UAL favor it, if only to rid themselves of terrible management (which appears to not be happening). When expectations collide with animosity (at CAL) that's when things will get sideways. If the two employee groups both believed that merging was mutually beneficial, I think we'd see something very different take place. CAL employees do not see merging with UAL as being in "their" interest. They've been open about that and Smigel was open about his employees desires to remain independent in 2008. Nothing has changed. His people didn't want it then and don't want it now. He's going to force it on them and that never plays out well.

Like I said I can understand your fear for someone hired at CAL in the 2007-2008 timeframe but funny thing is i was at the marriot IAH and talked w/ a few CAL guys and they were all for it. time will tell ATR

 

[FDJ2]

Seniority will go to arbitration and will most likely benefit CAL pilots. This isn't like US where both companies were hours from BK (well at least 1 and the other not far off). There will be fences on both sides for domicile and equipment. There will be pissed off people.

An arbitrated list would be worse for both premerger pilot groups than a negotiated list, but I think it's a stretch to believe that an arbitrated list will benefit CAL pilots. Not saying that the list would favor UAL either. The perception will be that it will favor those with the most realistic expectations and the reality will be that the pilot group that has the greater credibility will have the greater input on the list construction. This isn't hageling at a car dealership, or flea market, where you meet in the middle and split the baby, it's arbitration. I also don't think you'll find that an arbitrated list will have extensive fences, particularly not for domiciles.

 

[ATRCA]

Like I said I can understand your fear for someone hired at CAL in the 2007-2008 timeframe but funny thing is i was at the marriot IAH and talked w/ a few CAL guys and they were all for it. time will tell ATR

Yes, time will tell and in the end it will probably matter little for me. This battle will be far higher up the list than me. I have no dog in this thing. I expect I'll never be back and am planning accordingly. It's not my demographic that will want to burn the place down, it's going to be the 98-05 guys who are going to be pissing so vigorously on their corners and looking for a fight. They have the most to lose and almost nothing to gain. They have enjoyed unfathomable movement and now that will be threatened. We'll see. Who knows.

 

[General Lee]

If you could read Calforums I doubt you would consider this discussion to be all that "hot" and I'm sure your forum contains similar theatrics. Calforums is not an anonymous forum and posters use their real names so I don't think there's anywhere near the hyperbole on there that one might imagine. Most of the discussion is real and posters are expressing their real concerns and contempt. I think the heat is being kept below the water line for now but it's there and it will surface.

The MEC's will have their work cut out for them if all out brawling is to be prevented. We'll see. It can probably be contained for a while but once the two side agree to disagree, It'll be on............and we'll all have to live with it one way or another. I just don't see any company picnics taking place for the next few years.

I think the other important thing to realize is that there is very little support for this merger on the CAL side whereas it seems that many at UAL favor it, if only to rid themselves of terrible management (which appears to not be happening). When expectations collide with animosity (at CAL) that's when things will get sideways. If the two employee groups both believed that merging was mutually beneficial, I think we'd see something very different take place. CAL employees do not see merging with UAL as being in "their" interest. They've been open about that and Smigel was open about his employees desires to remain independent in 2008. Nothing has changed. His people didn't want it then and don't want it now. He's going to force it on them and that never plays out well.

There was plenty of chest thumping and name calling during the DL/NWA SLI, and I am sure there will be the same if UAL/CAL get together. In the end, a joint contract at the start softened the blow a bit, and the arbitrators came up with the solution. It is what it is.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yes, time will tell and in the end it will probably matter little for me. This battle will be far higher up the list than me. I have no dog in this thing. I expect I'll never be back and am planning accordingly. It's not my demographic that will want to burn the place down, it's going to be the 98-05 guys who are going to be pissing so vigorously on their corners and looking for a fight. They have the most to lose and almost nothing to gain. They have enjoyed unfathomable movement and now that will be threatened. We'll see. Who knows.

There were 2007 hires at Delta put ahead of 2000 hires at NWA. The arbitrators saw it that way, and that was that. But, those 2000 hires make more money than the 2007 hires (longevity). That won't always be the case, but it was decided that way. Now we are one team and trying to go forward.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ATRCA]

There were 2007 hires at Delta put ahead of 2000 hires at NWA. The arbitrators saw it that way, and that was that. But, those 2000 hires make more money than the 2007 hires (longevity). That won't always be the case, but it was decided that way. Now we are one team and trying to go forward.


Bye Bye---General Lee

That's interesting. How are things when you guys share facilities? I've never heard of pissing contests amongst the groups but does that stuff take place there?