Bull Sh*t Resumes

[avbug]

If a CFI could not log PIC, what's the point of being a CFI?? I don't think there would be any! That's the traditional path of building time, get you CFI and instruct.

What is the point of being a flight instructor? It's a paying job,and the point is giving meaningful instruction in a professional environment to provide a lifetime foundation to others in aviation.

If you're there to build time, do yourself and the world a favor and get out. We need more time building buffoons trying to teach like we all need .308 holes in our foreheads.

If you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC. You're arguement sounds like you're reading what you want out of the reg's.

I got tired of listening to you sound like you didn't know what you're talking about early in this thread, and let it drop, but here it's clear that you really don't know your subject matter.

Acting as pilot in command is NOT the same as logging pilot in command time. The FAA has made that VERY clear, time and time again. How can you not understand this?

Of course a flight instructor is entitled to log PIC. Can you not read the regulation? A flight instructor need not be PIC to log the time, but can log it all the same.

Several circumstances exist in which both parties are entitled to log PIC at the same time, but only one pilot may ever act as pic at the same time.

Logging is a paper issue, acting is reality. Logging PIC and acting as PIC are very, very different. You started the thread with a dead, tired, horse (and the wrong one, I might add), and you're still intently whipping it. Let it go.

 

[minitour]

Minitour,

If you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC. You're arguement sounds like you're reading what you want out of the reg's. As far as not wanting to "work for someone who scrutinizes your times" Wake up and smell the coffee. Every employer will look your qualifications and times over. The FAA will too if they catch you (very unlikely).

...and if an FAA interviewer said to me "if you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC", I'd say "thanks but no thanks" and be on my way.

Not only is that person 100% incorrect, but there's no way to convince them either.

Whether you have a great 121 gig or not is irrelevant. You're still bound to the regs like the rest of us that aren't in the 121 world.

Now, what I really said wasn't

"work for someone who scrutinizes your times"

. What I said was

if there's a company out there that wants to second guess legally logged time, do I really want to work there?

. As I said, to me that raises red flags. What other regulations do they not believe in? They aren't any gray(ey?) areas in the regs...it's all black and white.

Now, IMHO that's different from "scruitinizing". Their job is to look at my flight time to make sure I meet their qualification requirements, not to teach me the regulations. All I need to know on logging flight time is right there in 61.51.

But again, that's just my opinion...

-mini

PS
WRT the "reading what I want" in the regs...here's the exact text
61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

What I'm reading is that 61.51(e)(i) says if I have an airplane multiengine land certificate, I can log PIC time in a C421, Seneca, C90...if I'm the sole manipulator of the controls. [doesn't say who is acting as PIC here]

Also, [61.51(e)(3)] if I'm acting as an authorized instructor [it doesn't say anything about who's acting as PIC anywhere in there either.]

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Avbug and Minitour,

I'm not the one who originally stated "The regs don't have to say that I have to act as PIC when I'm giving instruction. Only that I can log PIC when I'm giving instruction." Minitour said that. see thread #73

"Acting as pilot in command is NOT the same as logging pilot in command time. The FAA has made that VERY clear, time and time again. How can you not understand this?" (thread #76) Avbug, where does the FAA make this VERY clear that you may log PIC w/o being PIC?

"Of course a flight instructor is entitled to log PIC. Can you not read the regulation? A flight instructor need not be PIC to log the time, but can log it all the same" (thread#76) Avbug, when did I deny a CFI logging PIC? My thread(s) said some air carriers do not recognize PIC unless you are in the Left seat. Not my doing it is their rules and requirements.

"...and if an FAA interviewer said to me "if you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC", I'd say "thanks but no thanks" and be on my way." (thread #77) Minitour if an FAA guy says that is the reg's then you are WRONG to ignore him.

"Not only is that person 100% incorrect, but there's no way to convince them either." Minitour, see above

"Whether you have a great 121 gig or not is irrelevant. You're still bound to the regs like the rest of us that aren't in the 121 world." (thread #77) My 121 job is PIC when I sign for the flight. My name will appear on the flight dispatch release. I have flown SIC in an aircraft that I have a type in. Ever seen two Captains flying in the same aircraft? Who ever signs for the flight is PIC in 121 ops.

I've never said the Reg's don't apply to me. I'm saying that a lot of guys are logging time incorrectly. And if you don't get a call back after faxing your resume, then that may be the reason.

 

[minitour]

Avbug and Minitour,

I'm not the one who originally stated "The regs don't have to say that I have to act as PIC when I'm giving instruction. Only that I can log PIC when I'm giving instruction." Minitour said that. see thread #73

...and it's true. See my last post.

"...and if an FAA interviewer said to me "if you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC", I'd say "thanks but no thanks" and be on my way." (thread #77) Minitour if an FAA guy says that is the reg's then you are WRONG to ignore him.

Oops on my part..."FAA" slipped in there inadvertantly. I really meant just "interviewer". But if an inspector tried to tell me that the regs said I have to act as PIC to log PIC, I'd want to talk to another inspector...perhaps a judge?

"Not only is that person 100% incorrect, but there's no way to convince them either." Minitour, see above

See 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

"Whether you have a great 121 gig or not is irrelevant. You're still bound to the regs like the rest of us that aren't in the 121 world." (thread #77) My 121 job is PIC when I sign for the flight. My name will appear on the flight dispatch release. I have flown SIC in an aircraft that I have a type in. Ever seen two Captains flying in the same aircraft? Who ever signs for the flight is PIC in 121 ops.

But 121 isn't the regulations on logging flight time. 121 is an operating rules section...

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Minitour

"But 121 isn't the regulations on logging flight time. 121 is an operating rules section..." 121 does say who can log PIC when operation under 121. 61.51 sole manipulator of the controls doesn't apply under 121. That was my point on my last post. As I stated in thread #60, call the FAA see what they say.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Added note to above post. I suggest calling the FAA in OKC. I called my local FSDO and asked three different inspectors and got two that agreed and one who didn't. So we are where we are. No real answer.

 

[minitour]

61.51 sole manipulator of the controls doesn't apply under 121. That was my point on my last post. As I stated in thread #60, call the FAA see what they say.

Okay, well maybe we're saying the same thing just thinking of it differently?

Here's my thing...Part 61 doesn't say I have to act as PIC to log PIC...and of course you have to have the ATP/Type/training/etc to be PIC under part 121, we know that...but I'd still like to know where under Part 61 it says you have to act as PIC to log PIC...which is what you said

If you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC.

from above...

Notice "have to" act as PIC to log...

-mini

*edit*
as an added note...I do agree that if the operation is conducted under Part 121, then only the Captain may log the PIC flight time. The FO logs SIC, etc...

BUT...If the operation is done under part 91, there's no reg that says you have to act as PIC to log PIC.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

Act and Log? I really don't know why there would be a difference, but it is a valid question. It may be a legal term that the FAA can use to pin the blame on. My whole intent was not to delete anybodies flight time. I've been there, trying to beg, borrow and steal time. I want to warn guys that their times may look fishy and if may cost them an interview. If I'm wrong, I will post it. I'm not infailable. I was just surprised by a few resumes posted on a particular web site that appeared too good to be true. (a few that had thousands of hours PIC and very, very little non PIC and others that claimed Chief Pilot on every job on their resume).

 

[minitour]

Act and log are two different things.

That's why I was so confused at why PIC, SIC and Dual have to = TT...mine certainly doesn't and I know a some successful people that are the same way.

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

We will have to agree to disagree on the "Act and Log" issue. As for your times, PIC + SIC + Dual (received) should = Total time

If that is not the case, then flags will go up when an HR rep goes over your resume. Just to let all of you guys know, airlines get thousands of resumes a week and go over them really quickly. If it looks funny, they don't call you and ask you to explain. They toss your resume on a "do not call" pile. You loose you shot. I'm just adding some advice to help you get your shot. If you choose to ignore then that is fine. My feelings are not hurt.

I've got to admit, right or wrong, a lot of you guys should have gone to law school. Your arguements are great and point well taken.

Good luck to all.

 

[minitour]

Minitour,

We will have to agree to disagree on the "Act and Log" issue.

No need to agree to disagree. If you can show me in 61.51 where it says I have to act as PIC to log it, I'll gladly admit I was/am wrong. But it is in black and white.

As for your times, PIC + SIC + Dual (received) should = Total time

This one we'll just agree to disagree.

Better idea...lets go have a beer.
:beer:

Titanic is on... "I'll never let go Jack" *SPLASH* LMFAO!

-mini

 

[gkrangers]

Alright...61.51...

I'm recieving instruction, I'm rated in class and category.

I'm acting PIC (sole manipulator), so I'm logging.

Instructer is allowed to LOG all instruction as PIC, so they log it.

So PIC + SIC + Dual doesn't necessarily have to equal TT.

EVERYONE I know logs this way. Every CFI and every student that I know. And people are gettin hired...

I don't see the problem with it.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

I agree on the beer issue. As for act/log? well I really cannot see a difference. If you log it, shouldn't you be actting as PIC? I don't see how two pilots in one airplane can log PIC at the same time.

gkrangers,

If you log PIC you shouldn't log dual (received). The Total Time should be your Pilot in Command, Second in Command and Dual received. Breaking down conditions is a little different.

That's my point. Guys are logging PIC when receiving instruction from a CFI and logging it as Dual. Or simply not logging the instruction received and logging it all as PIC.

 

[minitour]

Alright...61.51...

I'm recieving instruction, I'm rated in class and category.

I'm acting PIC (sole manipulator), so I'm logging.

Even if you aren't acting PIC...getting your complex endorsement or high performance endorsement perhaps?

You're still category and class rated...still sole manipulator. Go ahead and log it. But your instructor has to act as PIC of that plane (61.31 applies there).

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

I totally understand what 61.51 say as sole manipulator of the controls when it comes to logging PIC. However, FAR 1.1 Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight

(1) and (2) come into play when you are receiving instruction. The CFI is (1) and (2). If you have an accident or incident, the FAA is using 1 and 2 to hold the CFI as the responsible authority. Does this not make sense?