Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[fischman]

Yip,

Numbers.

 

[Diesel]

Yip,

Numbers.

Will never happen.

 

[pilotyip]

Will never happen.

sure it will here are a few 17, 1, 456, 9012

 

[ghostrider64]

Yip...aka uninformed. 15 years ago a paragraph was added to our CBA that matched the current, at the time, 737 captains wages at the majors. It still exists in our CBA and a ten year capt would be paid a base of $235k. Yes, ten years ago that's what they were paid.

Today the FOs are capped, but Capt are making huge money by being at home on duty during normal schedules, then brought out on extended days pay on off days to cover trips. Many are indeed over $250 and rumor has it at least one guy broke $300k last year.

So take your it will never happen mentality back to your cargo company, and park them. You're defeatist mentality is bad for our PROFESSION.

 

[fischman]

sure it will here are a few 17, 1, 456, 9012

I have given you two days of opportunity to come up with FACTUAL DATA to prove that $250,000 a year is absurd. You have not.

Therefore by definition it is NOT absurd and a reasonable low point to accept as a reasonable CBA wage.

Your opinion is invalid.

 

[flexpilot]

Always recruiting, we are filling our classes so something must be working. Get PM's asking for more info.

Always recruitung means people are always leaving...... something must not be working.

 

[pilotyip]

Always recruitung means people are always leaving...... something must not be working.

Our turnover runs about 25% per year, that is who we are, a place you come and after about five get the experience to go to a career job. A place where you make Captain in a couple years. A place where you get solid 121 training to give you the skills to succeed as a pilot in a two man cockpit. A place you come back to when laid off, and a place you come to when your 6 figure corporate job as a G-v captain is eliminated and you are in your late 50's. Funny thing about the guys when they come back after being laid off by places like NJ, NWA, DAL, they are some of our strongest cheer leaders.

The average pilot has been here 8 years, but the other funny part is the upper half of our seniority list has been here an average of 14 years. They live local, they make close to $100K, and they are only gone from home maybe 4-5 nights a month,

 

[Diesel]

Funny you never see Yip running his mouth on the majors section. Or the freight section. Only here....

I wonder why.

 

[NJAowner]

Today's papers report that the new CEO already had a meeting with NJASAP President - supposedly the first one in years.

 

[Fozzy]

Today's papers report that the new CEO already had a meeting with NJASAP President - supposedly the first one in years.

True.

 

[Pervis]

Today's papers report that the new CEO already had a meeting with NJASAP President - supposedly the first one in years.

The only meeting Hansel had with our union was very short lived. After our legal staff, all armed with signed non disclosure agreements, refused to leave the room at Hansel's demand, he up and walked out. Of course his legal staff was allowed to remain.

 

[X-rated]

I'll take a shot at it. This should be very popular

I have given you two days of opportunity to come up with FACTUAL DATA to prove that $250,000 a year is absurd. You have not.

Therefore by definition it is NOT absurd and a reasonable low point to accept as a reasonable CBA wage.

Your opinion is invalid.

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

 

[FamilyGuy]

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

You make some very good points.

While I support the pilots and want to see them get a better contract, I share your concerns about reaching an agreement that is sustainable in good times and bad.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and both sides will come together to a compromise that works for each party.

Seeing AJ and Bill meeting with the union on day 2 is a good start.

 

[gunfyter]

The answer is simple as to why Pedro made no mention of the union pay demands. The union hasn't established any. Anything you see here is the personal opinion of the individual.

 

[fischman]

The answer is simple as to why Pedro made no mention of the union pay demands. The union hasn't established any. Anything you see here is the personal opinion of the individual.

Exactly. That, and we don't want to leave anything on the table. In '05 Santulli was quoted as saying "you could have gotten more." I don't want to repeat history.

 

[acaTerry]

You make some very good points.

While I support the pilots and want to see them get a better contract, I share your concerns about reaching an agreement that is sustainable in good times and bad.

Not going to agree. We've been in good times for YEARS now and still...nothing. You aim high in good times and make the money while its there. When the company makes less, you have a different set of expectations.
DAL settled a TA in less than 1/4 the time we have. And that was their M.O...the money is there, pay up. It is no different here. This turnaround was earned as much by our backs getting overloaded as any other factor, probably more. If the planes don't fly, NJA makes no money. Well, the planes have been moving and NJA is nearly paid off on all debt. IOW, it will be a debt free operation soon. So why should we lower our expectations because of what "might" happen later when we are doing so well?
If the hard times come, we can deal with those when the time comes, not now. As we say where I grew up: "make your hay while the sun shines".

 

[Helmsalee]

Delta mainline does not operate the EMB 190. Sad, but true.

 

[T-1GUY]

Last I checked a new 777 cost about 320 million dollars paid for by Delta. A new phenom 300 cost about 8.7 million paid for by the owners. I am a professionally trained pilot. I will fly either plane. I demand a professional salary for my skills. Simple fact, Netjets can't keep experienced pilots if the wages are not comparable. There is a shortage of experienced pilots that is only going to get worse. Currently, Netjets cannot train new pilots fast enough to keep up with the number of pilots leaving. Hence, major airline pay is coming to Netjets.

 

[G4dude]

Last I checked a new 777 cost about 320 million dollars paid for by Delta. A new phenom 300 cost about 8.7 million paid for by the owners. I am a professionally trained pilot. I will fly either plane. I demand a professional salary for my skills. Simple fact, Netjets can't keep experienced pilots if the wages are not comparable. There is a shortage of experienced pilots that is only going to get worse. Currently, Netjets cannot train new pilots fast enough to keep up with the number of pilots leaving. Hence, major airline pay is coming to Netjets.

Yep. The shortage will give us a big raise, and it's about time.

 

[imacdog]

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

I don't think you understand how pay by longevity works.