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Breaking Colgan Alpa News
- Thread starter GEORGE DUBYA
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Thurman Merman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Posts
- 177
I'm not knocking the guys who gave their time answering questions in LGA, but you didn't have key people up there showing support. Key, meaning senoir Captains who have been here a while. The Captains that are respected at Colgan from top to bottom, the kind of guys people listen to when they talk. These guys are the ones respected inside the cockpit and out.
Now I know this is going to be taken the wrong way, but pilots have huge and ego's and it is hard to accept people junoir to them telling them what they need. Especially here at Colgan, where some Captain's are lifers, by choice. Believe it or not guys choose family over that big paycheck to work three days a week, weekends off, home every night, be able to coach little league, and show up to the school plays. Some of these guys are not hurting for money, which helps immensley.
My point is, these guys were not up there, not a lot of Captains in top 50 senoirity were there. That is the key demographic you needed. These are the guys that would have swung the FO vote. Some people are happy here, contrary to popular beleif they are treated well. The key is Colgan is now corporate. Those Captains who were happy but want protection from a change were not there, mostly it was guys who were not happy to begin with.
Also, the if your not voting for ALPA you're stupid campaign did not win a lot of votes. This was not a tactic in LGA, but on the internet it was very prevalent. Instead of alienating the pilot group who made a choice and sounding like sore losers, understand what happened and rework the problem. I am not talking about everybody but it seems like the same few people on here are not winning a lot of votes. You are dealing with grown @ss men(for the most part) and women, even on the internet, if you are trying to win votes show some class.
I know keeping people informed is key, but to lambast people with too much can be a negative. People did not enjoy getting mail everyday, or a phone call everyday(in some cases on cell phones). The problem being, if people feel like they are being told what to do they revert to there inner child and rebel. The fire hose worth of information had the opposite effect of keeping "you" informed.
Lastly, Anyone who has ever been on a debate team knows to understand the issue from both sides and be able to argue it equally(without bias) will allot you the victory. I got the feeling from some people that they could not understand why people would not want ALPA and it was the only way. You need to know your opposition, you need to understand his thought process, then you need to find a way to give him the satisfaction he arrived at a decision on his own accord.
All of this is a personal observation but food for thought in the next campaign. Now fire away with the angry responses...
Now I know this is going to be taken the wrong way, but pilots have huge and ego's and it is hard to accept people junoir to them telling them what they need. Especially here at Colgan, where some Captain's are lifers, by choice. Believe it or not guys choose family over that big paycheck to work three days a week, weekends off, home every night, be able to coach little league, and show up to the school plays. Some of these guys are not hurting for money, which helps immensley.
My point is, these guys were not up there, not a lot of Captains in top 50 senoirity were there. That is the key demographic you needed. These are the guys that would have swung the FO vote. Some people are happy here, contrary to popular beleif they are treated well. The key is Colgan is now corporate. Those Captains who were happy but want protection from a change were not there, mostly it was guys who were not happy to begin with.
Also, the if your not voting for ALPA you're stupid campaign did not win a lot of votes. This was not a tactic in LGA, but on the internet it was very prevalent. Instead of alienating the pilot group who made a choice and sounding like sore losers, understand what happened and rework the problem. I am not talking about everybody but it seems like the same few people on here are not winning a lot of votes. You are dealing with grown @ss men(for the most part) and women, even on the internet, if you are trying to win votes show some class.
I know keeping people informed is key, but to lambast people with too much can be a negative. People did not enjoy getting mail everyday, or a phone call everyday(in some cases on cell phones). The problem being, if people feel like they are being told what to do they revert to there inner child and rebel. The fire hose worth of information had the opposite effect of keeping "you" informed.
Lastly, Anyone who has ever been on a debate team knows to understand the issue from both sides and be able to argue it equally(without bias) will allot you the victory. I got the feeling from some people that they could not understand why people would not want ALPA and it was the only way. You need to know your opposition, you need to understand his thought process, then you need to find a way to give him the satisfaction he arrived at a decision on his own accord.
All of this is a personal observation but food for thought in the next campaign. Now fire away with the angry responses...
Thurman, the problem with that is that most of the senior Captains that you refer to are in the company's good graces. They receive favors whenever they want them, and they never have to worry about anything. They know that their buddies in management will always take care of them. They don't care that the other 90% of the pilot group doesn't receive the same blessed status that they do. Dean from the Colgan Pilot Group is an excellent example of this. Here is a senior guy that was extremely well-respected by the pilot group before this campaign. Miraculously, after creating the CPG after the union drive started, he was recently promoted to a management position. He's one of the "good old boys." Trying to get guys like that to support the union cause is impossible. They're too far entrenched in the company machine. Believe me, I tried on many occasions to call him and talk with him when I was acting as the representative to Colgan from the PCL MEC. I left messages offering to buy him lunch and talk about ALPA and his CPG. He never returned a phone call.
I'll admit to you, I really don't understand why people would choose no protection and no representation. It's a foreign concept to me. That being said, I asked the few pilots that had the balls to admit being against the drive, and the only answers they could provide me about why they were opposed were the following:
1. "I'm not giving away 2% of my money to some union"
2. "Unions are communist. I'm a Republican."
3. "Duane made too much money."
4. "I just don't like union."
Are these well-thought out reasonings? Sorry, but you can't debate with someone or understand their position when they're just making statements like "unions are communist." In all the time I spent in working on the Colgan drive, I never once had a pilot approach me with a well-thought out reason why representation was a bad (or even questionable) idea. If the intelligent pilots with a different viewpoint were out there, then they too big of cowards to come up to the food court and talk face to face about it.
Personally, I disagree with your assessment of why the drive failed. The guys that are angry about mailing and phone calls would vote "no" anyway, simply because they have a predisposition to hating unions. In my opinion, this drive failed for two reasons: pilot apathy, and too many newhire pilots that don't understand (and didn't take the time to learn) what unions are and why they're important. Because of this, I'm not even sure that the drive next year will have any more luck. There will be even more newhire pilots and many of the OC members will have already moved on to major carriers. I still hold out hope, however, and I'm sure that ALPA will once again put everything they can into the next drive.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
PCL 128,
The biggest problem we face at the regional level is the whipsaw between companies in this fee for departure competition. ALPA National and the mainline MECs have done nothing to stop this, and in fact have done things that make it worse. Many regional pilots have observed this and they are not impressed with ALPA.
If ALPA steps up to the plate and shows some leadership in this area, ALPA may start to win some of these votes. Until then expect more of the same.
The biggest problem we face at the regional level is the whipsaw between companies in this fee for departure competition. ALPA National and the mainline MECs have done nothing to stop this, and in fact have done things that make it worse. Many regional pilots have observed this and they are not impressed with ALPA.
If ALPA steps up to the plate and shows some leadership in this area, ALPA may start to win some of these votes. Until then expect more of the same.
Boiler, Joe never offers any solutions. He just whines about ALPA and sends more money to his greedy RJDC attorney.
TNHillbilly
King of the South
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2006
- Posts
- 191
Bearskin
TNHillbilly
King of the South
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2006
- Posts
- 191
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
True brand scope. Probably won't happen, so expect the organization drives to fail....
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
True brand scope, rather than empty rhetoric and lip service would be a start. Not creating more alter-egos (Compass, MDA, etc.) would be another. Status quo will result in more of the same and more failed ALPA drives..... Skywest drive is next.... it will fail by even more votes than Colgan....
It's too late for brand scope, Joe. It's impossible to even define the "brand." How many carriers now fly for Delta? I can't even remember because there are so many. Many of them aren't ALPA, and a couple aren't even unionized. How will "brand scope" fix this problem? If it was just CMR and ASA, then brand scope would be a possibility, but I'm afraid that that ship has sailed.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
Your right..... ALPA failed when they had the opportunity and now you cheerleaders are surpised when people don't vote for ALPA.... Actions or Inactions have consequences...... ALPA couldn't get the job done for the regionals and now they can't organize regional pilot groups....
First, it's spelled "you're." Second, why do you continue to dwell on the past? Even I as a self-professed "ALPA cheerleader" admit that ALPA made mistakes in the past in regards to scope. But dwelling on that and not being able to move on and find new solutions for the future is only counter-productive. We recognize that mistakes were made. Time to move forward and find new solutions. Right now you're just part of the problem, Joe. How 'bout becoming part of the solution?
GEORGE DUBYA
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Posts
- 713
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
First, YOU'RE right. I was typing fast. Finding spelling and grammar mistakes is easy.... debating is harder....
Second, if you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it.... that is what we are doing..... Compass is an example......
I don't really care, because I really don't expect ALPA to reform itself........But I do expect other regional organization efforts to fail..... Hot dogs won't replace job security.....
If we can't fix the scope issue, then the rest is really meaningless.... we will just compete against each other.....
Everyone here has already learned from those mistakes, Joe. We don't need you reminding us of them with every single post you make. And for what it's worth, the current MEC leadership at NWA opposed the NewCo (Compass) debacle. Unfortunately, they weren't the majority when the issue was decided.
Agreed. So how 'bout some solutions instead of just attacking the past. You apparently agree that the "brand scope" ship has sailed, so what other ideas do you have?
Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Posts
- 2,551
Golly! Sounds like a super idea! I also think it might cost a lot of money to achieve.
What are YOU willing to pay for it?
[cricket...cricket]
Since you refuse to answer that question directly, we now understand the nature of beast:
You and your RJDC wussies are unwilling to foot any of the negotiating bill to achieve Brand Scope, so you resorted to bottom-feeding lawyers to get your way.
jobuneedsarefil
Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2007
- Posts
- 9
The "OC" what a joke. If there is any backlash from the company we have you toolbags to thank.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
1. The mainline pilots have the leverage and the capital.
2. According to ALPA the mainline pilots are the "owners" of the scope.
3. Ref. 1 & 2 above, yes it would require the mainline pilots to do the heavy lifting.
4. Because of that, it will never happen. Therefor there will be more bidding, and more fighting for the scraps. There also won't be anymore regionals joining ALPA. With Colgan, ALPA is 0 for the last 6 attempts. The Skywest vote will be 0 for 7 with regional pilot groups.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
Evidently everyone hasn't learned.... that's why we now have Compass. Occam will be here shortly to tell you why Compass was a good idea.
I'm not reminding you about how badly ALPA has handled scope..... I'm reminding those who are thinking of voting ALPA onto the property. I would vote ALPA off the property if given the choice and I think those who are voting should hear BOTH sides.... fair and balanced you know...
PCL_128 said:
If ALPA can't solve the problem of us competing against one another, then I am willing to compete against everyone else.... That's what the mainline guys are doing... they are undercutting the regionals now for the 70-90 seat flying.
I have said it before........ either stop the competition within a brand, or participate in the bidding..... I would prefer the first, but I am ready for the latter.... including bidding for larger aircraft.... what should we start the bidding at for 737 flying????
I generally agree with Occam on most things, but I disagreed with him on the concessionary TA and the NewCo concession in particular. I agreed with Captain Ray Miller, then the Council 20 CA Rep, that the TA cut too deep and didn't follow the direction of the MEC and the pilot group on the issue of scope. But, in the end, the pilot group spoke with their votes and decided it was worth the lost flying.
Translation: "I have absolutely no solutions to offer, just a bunch of b!tching. If I can't get my way, then I'll steal everyone else's flying and file lawsuits against everything that moves."
TNHillbilly
King of the South
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2006
- Posts
- 191
They worked harder than you have ever worked. I'm sorry your parents gave you everything...but for some of us thats not how it works. I hope you get it the hardest.
Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Posts
- 2,551
There it is!
Conclusive evidence that the RJDC geniuses refuse to accept the price of Brand Scope. They want it...but don't think they should have to pay for any part of it.
I didn't ask you who "owned" Scope...but you knew that. I also didn't ask who would pay the larger price at the table to achieve it. I asked, simply:
What are you willing to pay for it?
And I predicted you would never answer the question.
Stupid + Predictable = RJDC
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