Bluetruthpilots

[Smarta$$]

A well reasoned mature responce. Why anyone takes you seriously is beyond me.

I agree. Worthless.

 

[Lake Alice]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

 

[Flyby1206]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

A staple would be great, where do I sign? I would hazard a guess and say a majority of the bottom 25% would gladly be stapled to a DAL/AA/SWA type seniority list.

You've said it yourself, anyone hired here in the past few years will never see the left seat based on retirements/aircraft deliveries. So why not be at the bottom of a list that will at least have some movement from retirements over the next decade.

 

[CapnVegetto]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

If you think we'd get anything other than a staple in a merger with WN, DL, or AA you are dreaming, union or no union.

We'd have a shot with Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, etc, sure. But of you think anything other than a staple is coming with a large carrier M&A then splash some water in your face and get back to real life, bro.

A union will only help us with a non-legacy or non-WN merger.

 

[CapnVegetto]

A staple would be great, where do I sign? I would hazard a guess and say a majority of the bottom 25% would gladly be stapled to a DAL/AA/SWA type seniority list.

You've said it yourself, anyone hired here in the past few years will never see the left seat based on retirements/aircraft deliveries. So why not be at the bottom of a list that will at least have some movement from retirements over the next decade.

Bingo. This nails it.

LA's logic is flawed. We have the LEAST to lose. We're junior 1st and second year FO's, starting over somewhere else isn't that big a deal. The people that have much more to lose are the people that have seniority and time invested here.

I can always go get a charter job or something and make about what I make now for a hell of a lot less work. If I were a captain or senior FO, that wouldn't be true.

Think about it.

 

[Lake Alice]

If you think we'd get anything other than a staple in a merger with WN, DL, or AA you are dreaming, union or no union.

We'd have a shot with Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, etc, sure. But of you think anything other than a staple is coming with a large carrier M&A then splash some water in your face and get back to real life, bro.

A union will only help us with a non-legacy or non-WN merger.

I have to disagree a little. Without embarking on a union/non-union argument at the very least we would be able to negotiate something. During the ALPA campaign I had opportunity to speak with several of the ALPA heads and the DALPA MEC Chair and here is what they said. If we(another ALPA carrier) were to merge our seniority list it would not be date of hire or straight percentage of seniority but rather an integration based on the size of AC we fly. So in essence our largest AC is a 320 so domestic narrow body is where our negotiated integration would start on the master list. We have pilots, based on Jetblue propaganda, who think since they are in the 20th percentile at Jetblue either our PEA's or M/B will place them at that same level at, say, Delta. Clearly not realistic.

Based on the current PVC's meetings with the attorneys our current PEA's will do nothing to protect us and neither will M/B. Currently we will be LUCKY to get a staple but, again, that is something each of us will be forced to negotiate INDIVIDUALLY.

And flyby1206 I agree with you about the staple. Where do I sign. I'd suffer a QOL hit but in nearly every other category it's an instant upgrade.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I have to disagree a little. Without embarking on a union/non-union argument at the very least we would be able to negotiate something. During the ALPA campaign I had opportunity to speak with several of the ALPA heads and the DALPA MEC Chair and here is what they said. If we(another ALPA carrier) were to merge our seniority list it would not be date of hire or straight percentage of seniority but rather an integration based on the size of AC we fly. So in essence our largest AC is a 320 so domestic narrow body is where our negotiated integration would start on the master list. We have pilots, based on Jetblue propaganda, who think since they are in the 20th percentile at Jetblue either our PEA's or M/B will place them at that same level at, say, Delta. Clearly not realistic.

Based on the current PVC's meetings with the attorneys our current PEA's will do nothing to protect us and neither will M/B. Currently we will be LUCKY to get a staple but, again, that is something each of us will be forced to negotiate INDIVIDUALLY.

And flyby1206 I agree with you about the staple. Where do I sign. I'd suffer a QOL hit but in nearly every other category it's an instant upgrade.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. A lot of people say a lot of rosy things, but at the end of the day, whoever we merge with is obligated to take care of THEIR membership, not ours. They may paint a nice rosy picture now, but when the rubber meets the road, do you think they'll follow through? I doubt it.

Dave Barger promised us a lot of $hit, too, you know. Pilots are even greedier than he is. I just flat out don't buy that the APA, SWAPA, or even DL ALPA will do anything other than hose us. It's really easy to pay lip service to little ol' B6's cute little union rep when they come callin to big daddy DL, but when the chips are down, what is REALLY going to happen?

All I read on here are pilots complaining about being lied to by those in power, getting screwed by senior guys selling out scope for a pay raise, etc. etc. Maybe I'm a bloviant misanthrope, but all I'm doing is looking at history. I guess the question of the day is, what in the world makes you think that promises made by a potential merger partner would be ANY different than all the other bull$hit promises you've heard over your career, and complain about every single day both on here and on Bluepilots?

Now with that being said, you and Flyby are right. Staple the crap out of me. I'll take it tomorrow! It's an upgrade in pretty much every damn category. Sign me up!!

 

[PCL_128]

Vegatto, if you're an ALPA member merging with an ALPA carrier, then ALPA Merger Policy applies. That means negotiations, mediation, and arbitration. The Delta MEC couldn't just staple you because they're bigger. Now, going in as an unrepresented group? Different story.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Vegatto, if you're an ALPA member merging with an ALPA carrier, then ALPA Merger Policy applies. That means negotiations, mediation, and arbitration. The Delta MEC couldn't just staple you because they're bigger. Now, going in as an unrepresented group? Different story.

LOL

you mean like it did with the US Air guys?

People look put for their own interests. They could give a crap about ALPA.

 

[Lake Alice]

actually an arbitrator, as the policy dictates, made the decision. the process worked. the us air pilots didn't like the result.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

LOL

you mean like it did with the US Air guys?

People look put for their own interests. They could give a crap about ALPA.

How do you think they would have fared without the ability to collectively act? The US Air pilots have themselves to blame. Look at Delta and NWA......an entirely different outcome. I have yet to run across any major airline pilot (outside of B6) who would rather have their own management team decide their fate rather than negotiate their own futures under the support of THEIR own union, whether it be ALPA, Teamsters, or Mickey Mouse.

Every unionized pilot group is responsible for making their own decisions as a collective group. ALPA is merely a toolbox of resources for each pilot group to use. The final word comes from each pilot group as a whole.......not ALPA. Yet many seem to use ALPA as a scapegoat.

 

[CapnVegetto]

actually an arbitrator, as the policy dictates, made the decision. the process worked. the us air pilots didn't like the result.

Precisely my point.

Who's to say something like that wouldn't happen in a B6 merger? Or perhaps something we haven't even thought of? The only point I am making is that lip service from Delta's MEC and all the ALPA rules really don't mean jack squat. A group will do what it wants, despite ALPA's on paper merger policy, and there is a better than 50/50 chance that the end result will be a far cry from what you are saying.

At least a union would guarantee a staple, I'll give you that. But to think we're going to get a good deal if we get acquired by a large carrier with huge resources is is just dreaming in my opinion.

 

[CapnVegetto]

How do you think they would have fared without the ability to collectively act? The US Air pilots have themselves to blame. Look at Delta and NWA......an entirely different outcome. I have yet to run across any major airline pilot (outside of B6) who would rather have their own management team decide their fate rather than negotiate their own futures under the support of THEIR own union, whether it be ALPA, Teamsters, or Mickey Mouse.

Every unionized pilot group is responsible for making their own decisions as a collective group. ALPA is merely a toolbox of resources for each pilot group to use. The final word comes from each pilot group as a whole.......not ALPA. Yet many seem to use ALPA as a scapegoat.

Goddammit, I wish people would learn to F-ING READ.

I AM PRO UNION. I'm so sick of repeating it

A union result will undoubtedly be better than a non-union one. I DO NOT DISPUTE THIS.

What I am saying is that expecting anything other than a staple or near staple if a large legacy buys us is dreaming. That's it.

I also say I would be fine with that.

 

[linepilot]

I'm praying for preferential interviews or worse, because the jetblew interview was taylored for dorks and bum kissers, and administered by flight attendants.

Nothing would make me happier than to see this seniority list discarded by the real industry.:laugh:

Bunch of fricking losers.

 

[Lake Alice]

Precisely my point.

Who's to say something like that wouldn't happen in a B6 merger? Or perhaps something we haven't even thought of? The only point I am making is that lip service from Delta's MEC and all the ALPA rules really don't mean jack squat. A group will do what it wants, despite ALPA's on paper merger policy, and there is a better than 50/50 chance that the end result will be a far cry from what you are saying.

At least a union would guarantee a staple, I'll give you that. But to think we're going to get a good deal if we get acquired by a large carrier with huge resources is is just dreaming in my opinion.

CV let me first say I know you are pro-union.

In the end there is no guarantee with anything. My contention is with ALPA both sides have to abide by ALPA policy. If not both sides have the right to mediation and binding arbitration. In the airways case the MEC was specifically told DOH would not be awarded. They proceeded and and DOH was not awarded. Had JetBlue been AW we would have received a very favorable seniority integration. If DAL buys us as another ALPA carrier I am willing to take my chances with mediation and arbitration. Based on ALPA policy alone we would not be stapled. Fine with me.
With the bluebells DR version we won't even be stapled. OUr PEA will never supersede or override a CBA. No matter wether you believe the Dave will take care of you or not we are absolutely powerless and ultimately screwed and essentially out of a job.
I'm not fear mongering. When 4 different legal firms give the same opinion regarding our PEA's it's pretty sobering.
With an in house we have a shot but no war chest to pay for it.
ALPA will at least give us the opportunity to mediate, arbitrate and negotiate.

 

[CapnVegetto]

CV let me first say I know you are pro-union.

In the end there is no guarantee with anything. My contention is with ALPA both sides have to abide by ALPA policy. If not both sides have the right to mediation and binding arbitration. In the airways case the MEC was specifically told DOH would not be awarded. They proceeded and and DOH was not awarded. Had JetBlue been AW we would have received a very favorable seniority integration. If DAL buys us as another ALPA carrier I am willing to take my chances with mediation and arbitration. Based on ALPA policy alone we would not be stapled. Fine with me.
With the bluebells DR version we won't even be stapled. OUr PEA will never supersede or override a CBA. No matter wether you believe the Dave will take care of you or not we are absolutely powerless and ultimately screwed and essentially out of a job.
I'm not fear mongering. When 4 different legal firms give the same opinion regarding our PEA's it's pretty sobering.
With an in house we have a shot but no war chest to pay for it.
ALPA will at least give us the opportunity to mediate, arbitrate and negotiate.

I guess you just have more faith than I do. I don't believe for one damn second that DL's MEC would want to kumbaya with us. I believe what you heard from them was nothing more than Dave Barger-esque lip service, and as the US Air guys proved, ALPA policy really doesn't mean jack squat. There is always a way around it if you have the resources and the will, of which the DL has both.

It's still better than what we've got, but I just don't buy that little B6 will get a good integration, union or not, with any of the big boys. There is too much history that says otherwise.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Goddammit, I wish people would learn to F-ING READ.

I AM PRO UNION. I'm so sick of repeating it

A union result will undoubtedly be better than a non-union one. I DO NOT DISPUTE THIS.

What I am saying is that expecting anything other than a staple or near staple if a large legacy buys us is dreaming. That's it.

I also say I would be fine with that.

Point taken. You may want to stay away from sharp objects when posting.......just a suggestion.

 

[Smarta$$]

I guess you just have more faith than I do. I don't believe for one damn second that DL's MEC would want to kumbaya with us. I believe what you heard from them was nothing more than Dave Barger-esque lip service, and as the US Air guys proved, ALPA policy really doesn't mean jack squat. There is always a way around it if you have the resources and the will, of which the DL has both.

It's still better than what we've got, but I just don't buy that little B6 will get a good integration, union or not, with any of the big boys. There is too much history that says otherwise.

One point you are not acknowledging is the independent mediation and arbitration. DAL won't get to play steamroller entirely. Just mostly.

 

[Smarta$$]

For lake Alice, I can't conceive of a likely scenario where we would not at least have a staple. We may be stapled, but we won't be unemployed.

 

[Lake Alice]

For lake Alice, I can't conceive of a likely scenario where we would not at least have a staple. We may be stapled, but we won't be unemployed.

True dat! And the benefits and retirement will be better if it was DAL. Anyhow, back to my beloved DR.

 

[Smarta$$]

I would take DL staple tomorrow ... but I live in a DL hub...

Not that I don't like it here. I do.

 

[$$$4nothin]

For lake Alice, I can't conceive of a likely scenario where we would not at least have a staple. We may be stapled, but we won't be unemployed.

Man I really hope you are right. However if mother D buys us they will have to give up ALOT of slots in JFK. If we can make it another 24 months we might keep our job just due to the Delta retirements. However if they buy us in the near future I could easily see them getting rid of alot of us. Lets just hope Dave at least negotiates some recall rights for us while he negotiates his millions. In the mean time I am only 6 months from being debt free just in case.

 

[Flyby1206]

Man I really hope you are right. However if mother D buys us they will have to give up ALOT of slots in JFK.

+1

I dont want to turn this into another B6 merger thread, but DAL would have to give up so many slots in JFK that it wouldnt make a merger worthwhile in my opinion. Those slots would either go to AMR, or to a VX/SWA type carrier. The end result would be removing jetblue from JFK, only to strengthen AMR and allow more LCCs into the arena.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

No mergers until the election cycle is complete. The DOJ will change if M.R. gets in the White House. Mergers will face less pressure. Obama can not allow more jobs to be lost right now. So forget any merger. We are safe I would say until 2013. By then who knows the Euro and entire global financial system could be kaput. Rendering all this talk as moot.

 

[$$$4nothin]

We are safe I would say until 2013. By then who knows the Euro and entire global financial system could be kaput. Rendering all this talk as moot.

Well I guess when that happens I am driving to the marina, "borrowing" a 40 foot sail boat, and sailing to the Grenadines to dissapear.

 

[Lake Alice]

Man I really hope you are right. However if mother D buys us they will have to give up ALOT of slots in JFK. If we can make it another 24 months we might keep our job just due to the Delta retirements. However if they buy us in the near future I could easily see them getting rid of alot of us. Lets just hope Dave at least negotiates some recall rights for us while he negotiates his millions. In the mean time I am only 6 months from being debt free just in case.

Dave negotiate recall rights for us? Please tell me your joking. Your PEA makes it very clear what Dave intends to do.

 

[linepilot]

...and The Dave and his attorneys make it clear what they think of the enforceability of your PEA every time they face the 3A Arbitrator.

 

[PCL_128]

There is always a way around it if you have the resources and the will

No, there really isn't. The USAirways pilots haven't gotten around anything. They have merely delayed the inevitable. Despite what they want to believe, binding really does mean binding. The Nicolau award is the list, whether they like it or not. If Parker ends up buying AMR like he wants to, the new arbitrator will use the Nic award as his starting point for integrating the USAirways pilots with the American pilots. No matter how loudly USAPA cries, and how hard they pound their fists on the table, the arbitrator's award under ALPA Merger Policy will always stand.

 

[Flyer1015]

No, there really isn't. The USAirways pilots haven't gotten around anything. They have merely delayed the inevitable. Despite what they want to believe, binding really does mean binding. The Nicolau award is the list, whether they like it or not. If Parker ends up buying AMR like he wants to, the new arbitrator will use the Nic award as his starting point for integrating the USAirways pilots with the American pilots. No matter how loudly USAPA cries, and how hard they pound their fists on the table, the arbitrator's award under ALPA Merger Policy will always stand.

How has it stood for the last 5 yrs?

 

[CapnVegetto]

How has it stood for the last 5 yrs?

Precisely. There is ALWAYS a way around, whether he wants to admit or not. USAir proves it.