Bluetruthpilots

[Lake Alice]

never mind

 

[BeachBummer]

You've gone to the other spectrum of Barney! LOL, not sure how we got onto Rich Dad Poor Dad topic but I agree with ya on your points. What was this thread about agian?

I Should tone it down??? Really?? Have you even READ some of his posts? Like the crap he spews about voting no just to spite everybody?

Don't expect me to not call people on their bull$hit dude. If someone acts like an a$$, they will hear about it from me.

Where is your post calling him out on his assumptions about me?

EDIT: For purpose of elaboration, I will add to this.

I have way too may people that I actually care about that are looking for jobs and trying to feed their kids to tolerate the incessant, pathetic whining of some ******************************bag captain with a six-figure income pi$$ing and moaning about his station in life when I personally know a gargantuan number of people that would give anything to be where he is.

It makes me sick.

Don't talk to me about your bills, kids' college, etc. I'm in the same damn boat. I have a family to take care of, too. If you can't make your life work on a six figure income, you have a serious problem. I make more money now than I ever have, but I know how to manage it, and I know how to do without stuff. Sure, I could afford to live in a McMansion in an expensive neighborhood, but I choose not to because I'd rather that money be put toward college. I choose to drive two 10 year old vehicles until they die because they are paid for. I choose to not buy a boat, a second house, a sports car, or any number of other frivolous things because I would rather have a nice fat savings earmarked as an "oh $hit fund".

I am ready for the future. I think about it all the time, probably more than most. Every year I make more money, but my lifestyle doesnt change. I have ZERO debt except my mortgage, which will be paid off in 12 years at the rate I'm going. It's not that hard!! An extra $300 bucks a month. That's nothing. Its all about choices. Lots of people on here should learn to make better ones.

95% of what I see with pilots that whine and moan about money are people that made poor choices when they were my age, and it caught up with them later in life. I am making choices and sacrifices now that will pay off for me later. I had a good example in my parents. They live a very comfortable retirement now because they didn't blow their money on stupid crap when they were my age. I am attempting to do the same thing now, knowing it will pay off in the end.

 

[BeachBummer]

However, just because your making "more money now than you ever have" doesn't mean your being compensated fairly.

 

[CapnVegetto]

However, just because your making "more money now than you ever have" doesn't mean your being compensated fairly.

That is not in dispute. There are definitely improvements that need to be made. However, the market dictates what pilots are paid, and thankfully we have unions at most companies placing upward pressure on those wages.

The seniority system is the biggest problem we have, though, not management.

When I flew corporate/charter, if someone treated me like crap, or cut my insurance, I could take my $30,000 type rating and go somewhere else that would treat me better. That is not an option in the airlines unless you are junior enough or at a crappy regional. The guys that have been at B6 for a while are stuck, unless they want to start over at the bottom and take it in the shorts financially for a while.

Due to the seniority system, companies do not have to compete for pilots. The ONLY thing that keeps wages, work rules, and benefits decent are the unions. That is why we need one. As long as Barger has 12,000 applications on file for pilots that want to work here, and about 1,000 or so senior captains that are stuck as hell no matter what he does because they can't afford to start over anywhere, it sucks to be us. A union is the only chance we have for real improvements unless the seniority system is dumped.

Of course, a pilot's definition of 'fair compensation' compared to management's definition and society's definition are very different things. Who's right? That is an entirely different debate. All we can do is get whatever we can get.

At least we'll be able to fight a bit once we get a union.

 

[n757st]

The only fight some of these kids have is for the old farts (the ones who tried to organize this place three different times) and the left seats they are keeping them from. Their benefactors at jetblew have given them a pretty darn good job and the new paradigm is just fine for now.

Of course in 20 years, if they swing that way, they may have families and the exact same unrealized expectations.

Hard to say who they'll blame it on, but damn sure, it won't be their SUPERIOR choices. One way or the other, they will have sowed up retirement and health care for life.:laugh:

Lol.... The "Old Farts" we're organizing and the young studs were the "no" votes? How about during the next OC we compare the average age of a BOB to an OC member and compare results. Linepilot, you still going to vote no during the next union drive to spite us young'ins?

 

[$$$4nothin]

Lol.... The "Old Farts" we're organizing and the young studs were the "no" votes? How about during the next OC we compare the average age of a BOB to an OC member and compare results. young'ins?

This is also a fact. I am a 30 something, as are all the guys in my pad and my new hire class. Even a couple 20 somethings. Guess how 98% of 20 and 30 somethings that I know voted or will vote given the chance. Yet I fly with all old guy captains. I would say most of the 1193 are 45+. Also the concept that the company hired 250 young pilots to move the vote is BS also because the last 150+ guys hired were not eligible to vote. Go convince your old guy friends to pay down debt, vote Yes, and the next drive will pass.

 

[B6Driver]

Please, no facts are allowed here, you know the rules.

 

[linepilot]

Lol.... The "Old Farts" we're organizing and the young studs were the "no" votes? How about during the next OC we compare the average age of a BOB to an OC member and compare results. Linepilot, you still going to vote no during the next union drive to spite us young'ins?

I don't care if the place burns to the ground at this point and you'll know it if you fly with me. Feel free to keep your pie hole shut. :laugh:

 

[n757st]

I don't care if the place burns to the ground at this point and you'll know it if you fly with me. Feel free to keep your pie hole shut. :laugh:

A well reasoned mature responce. Why anyone takes you seriously is beyond me.

 

[BeachBummer]

I don't care if the place burns to the ground at this point and you'll know it if you fly with me. Feel free to keep your pie hole shut. :laugh:

Maybe you should take a spoonful of your own advise... Your comments do nothing to help.

 

[Smarta$$]

A well reasoned mature responce. Why anyone takes you seriously is beyond me.

I agree. Worthless.

 

[Lake Alice]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

 

[Flyby1206]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

A staple would be great, where do I sign? I would hazard a guess and say a majority of the bottom 25% would gladly be stapled to a DAL/AA/SWA type seniority list.

You've said it yourself, anyone hired here in the past few years will never see the left seat based on retirements/aircraft deliveries. So why not be at the bottom of a list that will at least have some movement from retirements over the next decade.

 

[CapnVegetto]

The junior pilots stand to lose the most at Jetblue. You PEA states the bottom 50% can be stapled and if you listen to the PVC and the opinions provided by this latest round of attorneys M/B may not apply to us. We will essentially be forced to fight this battle individually.

If you think we'd get anything other than a staple in a merger with WN, DL, or AA you are dreaming, union or no union.

We'd have a shot with Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, etc, sure. But of you think anything other than a staple is coming with a large carrier M&A then splash some water in your face and get back to real life, bro.

A union will only help us with a non-legacy or non-WN merger.

 

[CapnVegetto]

A staple would be great, where do I sign? I would hazard a guess and say a majority of the bottom 25% would gladly be stapled to a DAL/AA/SWA type seniority list.

You've said it yourself, anyone hired here in the past few years will never see the left seat based on retirements/aircraft deliveries. So why not be at the bottom of a list that will at least have some movement from retirements over the next decade.

Bingo. This nails it.

LA's logic is flawed. We have the LEAST to lose. We're junior 1st and second year FO's, starting over somewhere else isn't that big a deal. The people that have much more to lose are the people that have seniority and time invested here.

I can always go get a charter job or something and make about what I make now for a hell of a lot less work. If I were a captain or senior FO, that wouldn't be true.

Think about it.

 

[Lake Alice]

If you think we'd get anything other than a staple in a merger with WN, DL, or AA you are dreaming, union or no union.

We'd have a shot with Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, etc, sure. But of you think anything other than a staple is coming with a large carrier M&A then splash some water in your face and get back to real life, bro.

A union will only help us with a non-legacy or non-WN merger.

I have to disagree a little. Without embarking on a union/non-union argument at the very least we would be able to negotiate something. During the ALPA campaign I had opportunity to speak with several of the ALPA heads and the DALPA MEC Chair and here is what they said. If we(another ALPA carrier) were to merge our seniority list it would not be date of hire or straight percentage of seniority but rather an integration based on the size of AC we fly. So in essence our largest AC is a 320 so domestic narrow body is where our negotiated integration would start on the master list. We have pilots, based on Jetblue propaganda, who think since they are in the 20th percentile at Jetblue either our PEA's or M/B will place them at that same level at, say, Delta. Clearly not realistic.

Based on the current PVC's meetings with the attorneys our current PEA's will do nothing to protect us and neither will M/B. Currently we will be LUCKY to get a staple but, again, that is something each of us will be forced to negotiate INDIVIDUALLY.

And flyby1206 I agree with you about the staple. Where do I sign. I'd suffer a QOL hit but in nearly every other category it's an instant upgrade.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I have to disagree a little. Without embarking on a union/non-union argument at the very least we would be able to negotiate something. During the ALPA campaign I had opportunity to speak with several of the ALPA heads and the DALPA MEC Chair and here is what they said. If we(another ALPA carrier) were to merge our seniority list it would not be date of hire or straight percentage of seniority but rather an integration based on the size of AC we fly. So in essence our largest AC is a 320 so domestic narrow body is where our negotiated integration would start on the master list. We have pilots, based on Jetblue propaganda, who think since they are in the 20th percentile at Jetblue either our PEA's or M/B will place them at that same level at, say, Delta. Clearly not realistic.

Based on the current PVC's meetings with the attorneys our current PEA's will do nothing to protect us and neither will M/B. Currently we will be LUCKY to get a staple but, again, that is something each of us will be forced to negotiate INDIVIDUALLY.

And flyby1206 I agree with you about the staple. Where do I sign. I'd suffer a QOL hit but in nearly every other category it's an instant upgrade.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. A lot of people say a lot of rosy things, but at the end of the day, whoever we merge with is obligated to take care of THEIR membership, not ours. They may paint a nice rosy picture now, but when the rubber meets the road, do you think they'll follow through? I doubt it.

Dave Barger promised us a lot of $hit, too, you know. Pilots are even greedier than he is. I just flat out don't buy that the APA, SWAPA, or even DL ALPA will do anything other than hose us. It's really easy to pay lip service to little ol' B6's cute little union rep when they come callin to big daddy DL, but when the chips are down, what is REALLY going to happen?

All I read on here are pilots complaining about being lied to by those in power, getting screwed by senior guys selling out scope for a pay raise, etc. etc. Maybe I'm a bloviant misanthrope, but all I'm doing is looking at history. I guess the question of the day is, what in the world makes you think that promises made by a potential merger partner would be ANY different than all the other bull$hit promises you've heard over your career, and complain about every single day both on here and on Bluepilots?

Now with that being said, you and Flyby are right. Staple the crap out of me. I'll take it tomorrow! It's an upgrade in pretty much every damn category. Sign me up!!

 

[PCL_128]

Vegatto, if you're an ALPA member merging with an ALPA carrier, then ALPA Merger Policy applies. That means negotiations, mediation, and arbitration. The Delta MEC couldn't just staple you because they're bigger. Now, going in as an unrepresented group? Different story.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Vegatto, if you're an ALPA member merging with an ALPA carrier, then ALPA Merger Policy applies. That means negotiations, mediation, and arbitration. The Delta MEC couldn't just staple you because they're bigger. Now, going in as an unrepresented group? Different story.

LOL

you mean like it did with the US Air guys?

People look put for their own interests. They could give a crap about ALPA.

 

[Lake Alice]

actually an arbitrator, as the policy dictates, made the decision. the process worked. the us air pilots didn't like the result.