B6 to Sell FIVE A-320s

[JP4user]

As for the 190 rates, the raise is coming. Announcement soon I bet.

As for the military comment, what's your experience JP4? I spent 12 years on AD and am still in the reserves and I view the cabin cleaning thing exactly as starvingred describes it. The amount of time I actually clean is so low that it barely deserves a mention on any discussion of pilot contracts. On some turns there is only time do the pilot stuff required to get airborne again, so a nice row or two is about all you can muster.

Either way, it saves jb money and I am for it. A question however would be: if jb makes money hand over fist, would they do away with it and hire more professional cleaners? Not sure. BUT if any particular group (read: flight attendants, they do the lion's share) wanted to stop doing it, I bet a union or two would help management make up their mind though.

As for ALPA on its worst day? Has that day come yet?

190. I actually hope you are right. As I said to Curtain that would be a monumental step in the right direction. But with asset sales going on to raise cash, Is eriously doubt any fiscally prudent manager would use that money for wages increases. Not without a real fight anyway.

Cleaning. Well I disagree. Anyway you cut it it is prostituting your skills as a professional pilots. What happens if you flat out refuse to clean anything at anytime? What happens during your 5 year renewel?

ALPA, hopefully with Woerth gone that day will come.

 

[starvingredtail]

JP4 or 32...whoever you are,
Be careful about throwing stones in a glass house. Just look at what YOUR management did to all of you at United. Seems the B6 pilots knew the payscales going in and are hoping for it to go up as the company grows. Also, with the quick upgrades, they end up not doing too bad. I don't see the screwjob you are talking about. Its when you get your pay slashed, furloughed, or lose your benefits....and management gets options and perks...that is a screwjob. Look at all the retirement bubbas who paid into ALPA and had their retirements slashed. Don't kid yourself...there is no comaraderie (i can't spell) in ALPA or between any pilot group. It's all about bringing home your bacon. Do your United pals sit around and say "Let's not do this because it might hurt the guys over at Delta or American?" I did not think so.
As far as the pathetic remark goes, you have no class. I always try to lend a hand if I have the time. Its called leadership by example. Standing around with your thumb up your a$$ and watching everyone else working hard to make the crew van is kind of lame. You think by not ever helping out you are upholding the "professionalism" of the job??? Think again. You are just causing contempt for the profession.
That will do pig. That will do.

Hey MaMa,
Nice reply. However, it did make me look at his reply since he is on my ignore list. Again with the same seething, burning anger. An anuerism waiting to burst. I really liked his indignation at comparing cleaning the cabin with helping my loadmasters do a quick turn. Why is this different? Is it because we are so superior to mere FA's? Is it because being a pilot is like being a gentleman in victorian England? Give me a break. I started in this business as a janitor at a flight school just to be around airplanes. I moved up to lineman dumping the lavs and gassing them up. I went in the military and did whatever it took to "get the job done" or move the mission. Now I am supposed to turn up my nose at helping clean the airplane in a 2 minute symbolic jesture? I guess this is so that when JP4user goes to parties at his country club he can rub elbows with doctors and lawyers and look down at the hired help. Whatever it takes to make you feel "big" JP4.

Hey Bavarian Chief,
You answered him for me. Thanks
QUOTE BY BAVARIAN CHIEF:
As for the 190 rates, the raise is coming. Announcement soon I bet.

As for the military comment, what's your experience JP4? I spent 12 years on AD and am still in the reserves and I view the cabin cleaning thing exactly as starvingred describes it. The amount of time I actually clean is so low that it barely deserves a mention on any discussion of pilot contracts. On some turns there is only time do the pilot stuff required to get airborne again, so a nice row or two is about all you can muster.

Either way, it saves jb money and I am for it. A question however would be: if jb makes money hand over fist, would they do away with it and hire more professional cleaners? Not sure. BUT if any particular group (read: flight attendants, they do the lion's share) wanted to stop doing it, I bet a union or two would help management make up their mind though.

As for ALPA on its worst day? Has that day come yet?

Quote by DH2
This discussion is about B6 selling planes. Not United.
Bottom line......
DN sees a cash crunch coming and needs to sell off planes to improve the short term balance sheet. It's not good any way you cut it. The added costs of adding a second fleet type are biting him in the ass more than he thought. The marginal increase in revenue with the RJ are not outweighing the long term costs of having 2 fleet types. He knows it and is trying to correct his major f-up.
I have a lot of friends at B6 and I hope it's successful but selling off planes when you are a brand new company is not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.
You B6 guys are spinning the facts that the company is starting to lose money and DN is now concerned with maturation costs starting to creep up.
You cannot turn back the clock by selling off old planes. Be very weary.
Hey DH2,
I am not spinning any facts. B6 is reducing growth from 3x% to 2x%. How would you do that? Get rid of old assets that are more expensive or get rid of new assets that are cheaper? There is no spin in admiting the 3x% growth was too agressive. When we goof up we admit it and press on. No excuses. You can never turn back the clock. What you can do is come up with a plan and put it in place the cheapest, smartest way possible. The anaylists agree that 06 will be 3 pretty good quarters and 1 bad 1 for a break even 06. They feel that 07 will be profitable. The long term plan seems to make sense. The 190 seems to be the right plane for the market we are hitting and the growing pains seem to be over or almost over. I really don't see number wise how you are calling this a major f up. TED was a major f up.
NEW STANDARD DISCLAIMER:
1. 190 rates are low. B6 leadership knows this and I trust them to fix it like they did 320 pay. They have a track record for doing what is right.
2. Cleaning the cabin is a different thought process. But no different than helping your loadmaster with a quick turn in the military. Its a Leadership/teamwork thing I am surprised more folks don't understand. (and hot young FA's smell better than loadmasters and their smiles of appreciation warm my old heart) I am sorry that JP4user did not understand leadership while he served in the military. Some never get it.
3. Contract/No Union--Screw ALPA. Paid dues for 8 years at NWA and recieved nothing because I was so junior. Good leadership at B6 goes a long way. The worst day at B6 is far better than a good day at ALPA.

Now I return you to your previously scheduled B6 bashfest.

 

[Longhorn]

I would eat my words and say congradulations to each and every one of you. Well most of you anyway. That would be a huge step in the right direction for the wage scales on that cancer jet throughout the industry. Present and future.

Cancer jet?
I love it. At most majors, they pawn off their flying to regional subsideraries and people attack them for giving away their flying and not doing it themselves. Then the regionals are looked at as bringing down the industry by "takin flying" away from the major who does it. Now....you have us. We decided not to contract out our flying to keep the brand in check, keep it on the property and keep the moral of the group up as it is US that is doing the flying, not xyz express. We have eliminated the "scope" issue as well as other hot topics that other majors deal with when it comes to their regionals. Example, Delta...how many regional are co-sharing for them, 2, 3, 4? We simply do not have that issue but we still get beat up on. Yes...we have agreed that the pay on the 190 is low but it WILL come up. When we first started the 320 pay was low but mgnt said "lets give it a year and we will review a raise" What did they do? They gave a raise like they said. Now with the 190 they have said the same thing. Give it a year and the rates will be re-looked at. That is what is going on now. I trust our mgnt since they have kept their word so far and I think we will see a raise on the 190 really soon. When they do get raised JP4, well then you can eat your words and well meet for a beer!!:beer:

 

[JP4user]

I started in this business as a janitor at a flight school

That is also where you will end up in this business. Look at the glass half full way of things, at least you will have currency in this area.

 

[JP4user]

Cancer jet?
I love it. At most majors, they pawn off their flying to regional subsideraries and people attack them for giving away their flying and not doing it themselves. Then the regionals are looked at as bringing down the industry by "takin flying" away from the major who does it. Now....you have us. We decided not to contract out our flying to keep the brand in check, keep it on the property and keep the moral of the group up as it is US that is doing the flying, not xyz express. We have eliminated the "scope" issue as well as other hot topics that other majors deal with when it comes to their regionals. Example, Delta...how many regional are co-sharing for them, 2, 3, 4? We simply do not have that issue but we still get beat up on. Yes...we have agreed that the pay on the 190 is low but it WILL come up. When we first started the 320 pay was low but mgnt said "lets give it a year and we will review a raise" What did they do? They gave a raise like they said. Now with the 190 they have said the same thing. Give it a year and the rates will be re-looked at. That is what is going on now. I trust our mgnt since they have kept their word so far and I think we will see a raise on the 190 really soon. when they do get raise JP4, well then you can eat your words and well meet for a beer!!:beer:

I spoke in terms of "cancer" jet with the degradation of pay not where the 190 is flying and for whom. I should of made that clearer.

I happen to agree with everything you said above. However I think you are really fooling yourself to put so much trust in management. Any management for that matter. B6 knew loud and clear the displeasure of the rates the 190 caused yet they went ahead with them anyway. The A320 raises happened during a differnt era financially for B6

The shareholders will go beserk if monies appropriated form asset sales are offset by wage increases. I don't see Neeleman wanting to rock the stock boat by this.

 

[starvingredtail]

That is also where you will end up in this business. Look at the glass half full way of things, at least you will have currency in this area.

I just had to drop the ignore. And then I see this. I am........crushed.......humilated by my past. I will once again be condemmed to emptying trash and cleaning floors for minimum wage. Because, by JP4user's standard, I am dirt. Of course, JP4 has learned that as 3210LT, he should never divuldge information about his past or his current company, because then others could point to how his particular situation has contributed to the "downfall of the industry". JP4 has positioned himself as a sucessfull pilot in a mysterious position above any involvement in this industry's current position. This allows him to throw stones from a position of protection. Quite cowardly. Anyhow, if my fate is to return to the broom and bucket, it will be because B6 failed. If B6 fails, I will at least have worked for a company that has tried a different approach to the industry. So far they have been truthfull and forthcoming and actually employs leadership by example.
JP4, were you the guy in class who always thought you were saying funny, cutting things and then ended up being the only guy laughing at your remarks? Oh yeah, then as now you were not perseptive enough to know or care. Happy Father's Day.

 

[starvingredtail]

Cancer jet?
I love it. At most majors, they pawn off their flying to regional subsideraries and people attack them for giving away their flying and not doing it themselves. Then the regionals are looked at as bringing down the industry by "takin flying" away from the major who does it. Now....you have us. We decided not to contract out our flying to keep the brand in check, keep it on the property and keep the moral of the group up as it is US that is doing the flying, not xyz express. We have eliminated the "scope" issue as well as other hot topics that other majors deal with when it comes to their regionals. Example, Delta...how many regional are co-sharing for them, 2, 3, 4? We simply do not have that issue but we still get beat up on. Yes...we have agreed that the pay on the 190 is low but it WILL come up. When we first started the 320 pay was low but mgnt said "lets give it a year and we will review a raise" What did they do? They gave a raise like they said. Now with the 190 they have said the same thing. Give it a year and the rates will be re-looked at. That is what is going on now. I trust our mgnt since they have kept their word so far and I think we will see a raise on the 190 really soon. When they do get raised JP4, well then you can eat your words and well meet for a beer!!:beer:

Great Post.
It is great to have a factual track record to point to with the naysayers.
viva la B6

 

[furloughed dude]

I saw problems with this company for awhile now. Their biggest problem is that their YIELDS SUCK. They have very low costs (and slave labor wages on the -190). But they can't sell their seats at any kind of premium and face intense pressure from their competition.

Raises: Who know if they will get a -190 raise or not. They might if enough folks leave. I left when they announced those pitiful rates and had all of those BS sessions about why they needed to pay so low. I also loved the surprise "new agreement" sent by DHL. I completely lost trust with D3. "But you can upgrade faster, We kept the flying in house (for those rates, who cares?), etc." When I was hired at Jetblue, in spring of 2003, all of the buzz around was that there was an impending raise. Haven't seen it yet.

Some of these guys are so happy to have a job that they can't see the forest. This company will be TU in 5 years or so and D3 (Dumb, Dumber, Dumbest) will be living large.

 

[DH2WN]

Great Post.
It is great to have a factual track record to point to with the naysayers.
viva la B6

What facts? It's all opinion and speculation. The only fact is they are selling 5 aircraft after only being in circulation for 5 or so years because revenue isn't covering their costs and cash is precious.

They will show a profit in the next two quarters due to this short term correction but you will see a loss in the last quarter and for the year. The two fleet types long terms costs are going to start catching up when pilots start bidding in and out of the two types. I imagine it hasn't happened yet on a large scale. DN can see into the future and it doesn't look good without a major correction on his stupid decision to start regional flying a la Midway and Independence Air. B6 will live but the next 5 years are going to be pain, pain and more pain as they lose money and other work groups start to unionize. You will then see DN's true colors surface and the Blue Aid will be well worn off. That's my opinion and speculation based on the facts and opinions of DN from the Morris Air guys who apparently had an awful time working for the guy.

 

[B6Driver]

JP4user vbmenu_register("postmenu_1033481", true);

I noticed you spent the entire day at the computer bickering back and forth
about a subject and company you claim to have no real interest in.

"OK, you got life all worked out and things are just fine.
If you have kids, I really feel sorry for them.
You need serious help or at least a change in your meds.
You no longer exist on my read list.

 

[B6Driver]

DH2WN vbmenu_register("postmenu_1033596", true);

"That's my opinion and speculation."

thanks for nothing.

 

[Longhorn]

DN2WN,
Where do you get a loss in the 4Q? We are already projected to profitable in Q234. Yes things change but that info was based on performance and projections BEFORE any selling of the aircraft.

 

[3BCat]

Desperate times require desperate measures...thats all many of you seem to see in all this.

Innovative ideas are always controversial when you first hear them. I heard about the plan to sell aircraft as they age. I heard it years ago. Its part of their business plan. The fact that Wall street likes it now is fine with me.

Thats just one more thing to love about JetBlue. They have a plan; a long term plan. When was the last time your management talked about 2012 to your pilot group? For that matter, when was the last time your management talked to you?

The plan hasn't changed. JetBlue is changing according to plan.

 

[Lear70]

Just my opinion, but I don't see JB going anywhere.

Neeleman isn't an idiot... he wouldn't be doing this without good hard financial data that proves it to be a good idea.

The rest of us brainstorming about prices of originally-purchased aircraft, rates of leases, and sales prices amounts to jack squat. What's important is that they take their EXISTING aircraft, re-deploy them on more profitable routes, and do so with the future deliveries.

All of which is above our pay grade anyway...

 

[starvingredtail]

What facts? It's all opinion and speculation. The only fact is they are selling 5 aircraft after only being in circulation for 5 or so years because revenue isn't covering their costs and cash is precious.

They will show a profit in the next two quarters due to this short term correction but you will see a loss in the last quarter and for the year. The two fleet types long terms costs are going to start catching up when pilots start bidding in and out of the two types. I imagine it hasn't happened yet on a large scale. DN can see into the future and it doesn't look good without a major correction on his stupid decision to start regional flying a la Midway and Independence Air. B6 will live but the next 5 years are going to be pain, pain and more pain as they lose money and other work groups start to unionize. You will then see DN's true colors surface and the Blue Aid will be well worn off. That's my opinion and speculation based on the facts and opinions of DN from the Morris Air guys who apparently had an awful time working for the guy.

The factual track record is the fact that the 320 pay started low and a pay raise came based on input from the pilot group. This 190 situation is running along the same "track". Q2,3,4 anticipated profit for a net loss in 06 with all of 07 anticipated in profit. This is not short term thinking. Have your hatefest if you wish, its a free country but lets deal in facts. I am pretty sure the entire indusrty will be dealing with pain, pain, pain for the next 5 years because of oil uncertainty and management having the upper hand with labor. I think I already know DN's true colors and they are nothing like Doug Steenland's.

 

[DH2WN]

Have your hatefest if you wish.....I think I already know DN's true colors and.....

Taking this all a little personally aren't you. Sorry your company has to take drastic measures in the face of millions in losses but your "hate fest" (spelled correctly) comment is way off base. I have more friends at B6 then you have friends. I want them to succeed and fulfill a long career. However, in my opinion, B6's financial success is bleak and the selling of 5 aircraft is a just line in the blueprint of financial disaster.

You can anticipate all you want that doesn't make it fact. Companies always project positive news. I wonder why. Duh! You should probably put down the USA Today and pick up a WSJ and learn something about quarterly projections from corporations.

The facts of the case are simple and you don't like it. Too bad.

 

[Snoopy Mendoza]

Companies always project positive news. I wonder why. Duh! You should probably put down the USA Today and pick up a WSJ and learn something about quarterly projections from corporations.

I doubt Jamie Baker reads USA Today and he certainly doesn't drink the blue "cool-aid".
Later...:beer:

 

[FDJ2]

Cancer jet?
Now....you have us. We decided not to contract out our flying to keep the brand in check, keep it on the property and keep the moral of the group up as it is US that is doing the flying, not xyz express. We have eliminated the "scope" issue as well as other hot topics that other majors deal with when it comes to their regionals.

Just to be clear, YOU haven't decided anything. You have no say in who flies the E190 or any other jet at JBLU. You haven't eliminated the scope issue, it is a non issue, since management can dictate the terms of employment and dictate pay rates. You have no CBA, no representation and you're an at will employee.

Now JBLU might be a fine airline to work for, cabin cleaning aside, but the fact remains that few airlines have a business plan that includes selling aircraft when they are 5 years young just to avoid a "C" check, while they simultaneously take delivery of new aircraft.

 

[regionaltard]

Now JBLU might be a fine airline to work for, cabin cleaning aside, but the fact remains that few airlines have a business plan that includes selling aircraft when they are 5 years young just to avoid a "C" check, while they simultaneously take delivery of new aircraft.

"We'll get rid of the airplanes before we have to pay to maintain them.....BRILLIANT!"

I wonder why nobody else has thought of that?

 

[Longhorn]

Just to be clear, YOU haven't decided anything. You have no say in who flies the E190 or any other jet at JBLU. You haven't eliminated the scope issue, it is a non issue, since management can dictate the terms of employment and dictate pay rates. You have no CBA, no representation and you're an at will employee.

Now JBLU might be a fine airline to work for, cabin cleaning aside, but the fact remains that few airlines have a business plan that includes selling aircraft when they are 5 years young just to avoid a "C" check, while they simultaneously take delivery of new aircraft.

I am simply talking about the track record of our mgnt. They have held their end of the deal up for us so why would we want to go out and seek representation? The overall majority of pilots here want nothing to do with a union. We, and I include myself, have all seen what unions can do for your company. If a union ever was even discussed, it would be in-house, not alpa. I use the word WE because so far it has not been an US vs THEM attitude. We are all on the same page. mgnt for the most part discuss plans with the employee groups before making a change. Now there has been a few things that have not gone over very well, the 190 rates and health costs for example, but other than that we have had a say in our company. My point as to scope is that we, being jetblue as a whole, (crap, I am sounding like a lawyer now) dont farm out our flying or contract with regionals to do the express or smaller market service. We do it ourselves. Not that there is anything wrong with the regionals, I was there, but the company has decided to keep it all under one roof and we like it that way. I just think its funny how people who dont work here think they know anything about the workings of our company, the pilot contract or anything else that involves the inside of our company. Thats not ment to offend, its just the truth. I just laugh when some of the same guys from other airlines show up for the jumpseat and suddenly have nothing but great things to say about us, the contact, our plans and company then turn around on here and spout off on how we are going belly up in 5 and we all work for slave wages. I know since I have seen it first hand. Its sad