Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[ALGFLYR]

You are an idiot. Enjoy the soup kitchen line. The difference from west to east is that we are a TEAM (and profitable before saving your a$$). I see that in PHL every time I fly into there. Your ridiculous operation embarrasses me and our airline you moron. Did I mention that you are an idiot? Our proposal was fair, your's was insane. The arbitrator had to rule for one or another.

Wow. I have never attacked anyone on this or any other board. No wonder many feel this board is a joke. I was just stating an apparent fact and asking for a West pilots point of view. If you can't add anything to the dabate, you just lash out at someone... truly professional... Your fear shows...

 

[ALGFLYR]

why don't we add all the pilots that work at any airways express carrier to that # because they have the same effect on his bidding position / job security which is jack sh_t. 1,750 people on furlough below him are of less value to him than the couple of pages of paper their names appear on - at least he can burn the paper for warmth.

Because they don't nor have they ever flown aircraft for US Airways, Inc.

 

[ALGFLYR]

How does he have 1750 pilots behind him? They are furloughed and provide no benefit to him. They brought nothing to the table. How hard is that to understand. I feel bad that usairways was doing so poorly but the fact of the matter is furloughed means no job, Active, as dave odell was, means he has something to offer. An actual seat as a 737 fo. These 1750 pilots mean nothing until they return.

Several hundred are already recalled. They will all have the opportunity to return very soon. (Of course we know they won't all come back). But if another 9/11 type event happens, Odell will have some serious cushion under him. And of course had this merger not taken place, any such event would have affected AWA too and Dave would be out on the streets... He just got some serious furlough insurance... maybe...

 

[PositiveRate]

ALG,

You do realize that Dave has had absolute stagnation for the last two years as a result of this merger right? He SHOULD have a cushion behind him of 300+, but he doesn't right now because of the merger...

And yes, he SHOULD be next to the 19yr pilot who was never furloughed. Before the merger these were two different airlines with two different realities. On one side, junior was just a couple months, and on the other, junior was 19yrs. This is basic stuff...it sucks for the East guy, but his integration spot is not unfair. The fact that he was the junior guy after 19yrs...that is what's unfair, but cannot be righted on the backs of the junior West pilots.

Flylow22,

I'm not going to just roll over and let whoever wants to run their mouth do so, because someone thinks that would be theraputic...you talk as if they suffered such unspeakable loss, when the reality is that the loss they suffered is NOT BEING ABLE TO SCREW me and the next 15 yrs of my career so they could finally get theirs. Grow a pair. If you need a shoulder to cry on, find a therapist.

 

[Doug Parker]

.

What I want to know is when can I bid A330 FO back east ?????

Since I'm on the 757, does that make me eligible to fly the 767 domestically ?????




.

 

[FR8mastr]

ALG,

You do realize that Dave has had absolute stagnation for the last two years as a result of this merger right? He SHOULD have a cushion behind him of 300+, but he doesn't right now because of the merger...

You are mistaken, there have been around 300 recalls, so Dave does in Fact have 300 below him

 

[Andy]

I'm at United, recently recalled and very junior. I fully expect to remain junior until 65 has fully unwound and pilots start retiring again. United is not growing; very much like USAirways east has been for the last 15 years (other than 1999-2000). So United's seniority list is going to be very much like Airways east.
That said, I think that DOH is, at best, a poor method of seniority integration. In spite of being super junior for many years with the possibility of a merger hanging over my head, I think that relative seniority is the only reasonable method.

With the USAirways east/west integration, I think that the east got a slightly worse deal. However, their insistence on DOH was so unreasonable that I am surprised that they fared as well as they did.
There are a lot of people from the east upset at the way that this integration turned out. A good share of the blame belongs with the man in the mirror.

 

[aroundtheblock]

I'm a furloughed East guy. The airline was screwed up then and is expodentially screwed up now. You 2 loser airlines deserve each other. You AWA guys sound alot like AA guys during the the TWA deal. I got the recall call 3 weeks ago. No way would I go back to an airline where these junior guys think they are equal to a 19 year guy. As a furloughed guy I expected to get stapled. But the 19 year veteran should have been treated better. To think otherwise shows a lack of respect and integrity on the West's part. What comes around, goes around. And no I have no desire to return to a bunch backstabbing losers. You can say it was the arbitrator's decision, but that doesn't make it ethical or right.

 

[AutoBus]

You are mistaken, there have been around 300 recalls, so Dave does in Fact have 300 below him

So suppose, some guys bypassed recall (which many did) and lets say the arbitrator descided to include the recalled east guys in the award (which he did not). How would you handle them? Would you put them (the recalled guys) ahead of the more senior east guys that decided to bypass recall for now? That would sort of be rewriting the east list?

 

[vtwin]

.

What I want to know is when can I bid A330 FO back east ?????

Since I'm on the 757, does that make me eligible to fly the 767 domestically ?????




.

I don't know, when can I ride your wife out west?

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Look at the friggin list its RELATIVE SENIORITY. Airways pilots have been on the property forever at their airline. Their most junior guy has been there for what a billion years, BFD!

The list saved AAA top 500 a place first in line. Fenced off the widebody flying, integrated with RELATIVE SENIORITY for everyone else and stapled the furloughed guys like every other merger in history, even back when DOH ruled the road.

AAA you guys are driving me crazy. Nothing has changed, I'm still WAY junior and I'll never see a widebody in my career thanks to this list. SO... STFU and lets get a contract to increase everyone's quality of life and payrate.

Jesus!

 

[FLYLOW22]

These 1750 pilots mean nothing until they return.

Are you saying that I have meant NOTHING for 5+ years? Man... that's harsh!! Any more generalizations?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Flylow22,

I'm not going to just roll over and let whoever wants to run their mouth do so, because someone thinks that would be theraputic...you talk as if they suffered such unspeakable loss, when the reality is that the loss they suffered is NOT BEING ABLE TO SCREW me and the next 15 yrs of my career so they could finally get theirs. Grow a pair. If you need a shoulder to cry on, find a therapist.

I guarantee that one day, the tables will turn on you in some way or another. You will see life through different eyes then you do now.

What people say means nothing. Talk is talk. I need no shoulder to cry on as I have found other aviation opportunities that have drawn me away from this dog fight over scraps; the meat being the very integrity of professionalism left in this busniness between what were considered at one time in the past to be Brothers. If you knew me, you'd know that I need no more balls than I already have. One thing I HAVE managed to do over the years, however, is balance out the balls with brains... and judgement. This is something you are still working on obviously.

These are all grown men with decades of experience in the aviation industry you are refering to. They have earned respect for that if nothing else. These are men with children, many still in college. All have more time behind them than ahead of them in the industry. You must understand the imedous behind their calls for DOH. You would had the positions been reversed.

No harm no foul. If crushing East guys further on this message board gets you your jollies... good on you Bro.

There is no more screwage to worry about from the integration. It is over.

Why the continued hostility though? Seriously. What is your goal?

I will close by saying that nothiong stays the same and regardless of the outcome of intergration, US Airways (New or not) has SIGNIFICANT hurdles to jump ahead. The more time that is spent keeping an eye on that evil East guy next to you you spend is less time to spend time where needed; watching management and the competition.

Flame on, FIRE AWAY.. shoot all torpedos, whatever makes you feel better. It's all about you anyway.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

At this point you have 3 choices:

1: Accept the senority list and move forward with making a good joint contract since there's nothing you can do about the list. The list is final.

2: Let it eat you up and make you a bitter jerk that people can't stand to be around...and a less safe pilot, for that matter. Or...

3. Quit.

To you guys that keep saying that you are so discouraged that you will not accept being recalled...fine. Don't come back. I'm not saying you shouldn't but I am saying it doesn't make any difference to me if you come back or not. If you're just going to be pissed off for the next 20 years then I'd prefer it if you just dissappeared.

Before you go out of your way to be a jerk to me when we pass in the terminal just remember I didn't make the list. I agree with it but I didn't make it. It was decided by an arbitrator that both of our MECs agreed to.

You guys that talk about wanting to see US Airways fail or doing things that you think will help the demise of the company are insane. You'd really rather loose everything? Unbelievable.

We can all sit here and say "this is what should have happened..." or "we got screwed" but the fact is a new list is out there and its permanent. Now its up to you to choose from one of the three choices above. Choose wisely.

 

[Fast43]

But it is ok for "Save Dave" to be the VERY LAST pilot on the West list, but now has 1,750 pilots below him?

Yes

But more accurately he now has only 300 active (working pilots) below him and that as the Arbitrator pointed out is a direct result of the Merger. Without the merger they would not be now working and more than likely the rest of them would also be unemployed. If there is any proof that this is not the case the AAA merger committee could not find it or convince the Arbitrator of it.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

At this point you have 3 choices:

1: Accept the senority list and move forward with making a good joint contract since there's nothing you can do about the list. The list is final.

2: Let it eat you up and make you a bitter jerk that people can't stand to be around...and a less safe pilot, for that matter. Or...

3. Quit.

To you guys that keep saying that you are so discouraged that you will not accept being recalled...fine. Don't come back. I'm not saying you shouldn't but I am saying it doesn't make any difference to me if you come back or not. If you're just going to be pissed off for the next 20 years then I'd prefer it if you just dissappeared.

Before you go out of your way to be a jerk to me when we pass in the terminal just remember I didn't make the list. I agree with it but I didn't make it. It was decided by an arbitrator that both of our MECs agreed to.

You guys that talk about wanting to see US Airways fail or doing things that you think will help the demise of the company are insane. You'd really rather loose everything? Unbelievable.

We can all sit here and say "this is what should have happened..." or "we got screwed" but the fact is a new list is out there and its permanent. Now its up to you to choose from one of the three choices above. Choose wisely.

Well, looking at it objectively from the outside; you missed something. (i guess that would be #4)

4. NOT agree to a joint contract, the carriers will NOT be integrated, continue to operate separately and the combined list will be 'meaningless.' Then all of the retirements/attrition on the East side will go to East pilots. Guys will upgrade, move to the widebodies and int'l flying (thus getting some pay increase), and if this continues for about 5 yrs. of so; it will be like a 'pilot imposed fence,' something the arbitrator probably should have done.

This will probably make Parker happy anyway, as I don't really think he cares if the carriers are integrated. I believe he has made public statements, numerous times, that he has no problem continuing to operate with two certificates indefinitely, if necessary. After all, then he can just play one side again the other; let's see, two pilot groups with absolutely NO unity, sound about right? Also, there is absolutely Nothing in the FAA, DOT regs. that say he cannot continue to operate them separately, Right??

Let's see, if I was on the East side; what would be my choice? I'm guessing #4 (it was multiple choice?)

By the way, the arbritator really did not follow ALPA merger policy and it does set a dangerous precedent. An arbritator is merely a 'judge' and you guys act like you have never heard of a judge making a bad decision.

And, I would explain to you where the arbritator when wrong; however, do not wish to waste my time with people who don't want to listen, or not smart enought to understand and just want to argue and 'rant'

Enjoy your victory, I am happy for you. Guess you won the battle, but Lost the war!!

Have fun........Now, ready, set, GO; "rant away" (as I don't really care what you think or say).

DA

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

No way would I go back to an airline where these junior guys think they are equal to a 19 year guy.

the 19 year veteran should have been treated better.

The recent history of the airline merger is not a pretty one for labor.

AA buying TWA
SWA buying Morris
AWA buying USAir
NWA and all their merged folks


The only hope is when a few stars align--two very similar seniority lists, unlike U and AWA, and growth. Or just not a fleet reduction

Can't wait until the next merger is announced (sarcasm) Especially with Tilton talking about a needed merger with corresponding reductions. He must be extra fun to work for.



As far as the 19 year guy and expectations. Those guys rolled the bones staying at USAir. Some chose not to apply anywhere else because, "They didn't want the younger guys feeling equal to them."

That attitude seriously inhibited their careers. The furloughed USAir guys who managed to get hired at AWA before the merger have fared better. The guys hired by NJA have done better. The guys who did almost ANYTHING else did better. It doesn't pay to have too big an ego in this business. You can never put your resume away for good and you have to swallow your pride to move if necessary. Knowing that is key.

Someone should do a study of how often it pays to stay at a troubled carrier vs. leaving at the first sign of trouble. I'm guessing the folks who leave when a more stable company is hiring have higher career earnings. Looks like the DAL guys are making good on staying. UAL guys may make out too. CAL guys rode it out but I don't know if they would have done better to leave or stay. Eastern, Pan Am, TWA guys are wishing they left. Except for the few at Pan Am on the 727. The Morris guys did o.k. (but put on the bottom of the list). Kiwi, National, and others did poorly. Valujet guys are glad they stayed. Many ATA guys wish they had left.

And the UAL folks who left to start JetBlue. They went from being idiots, to being geniuses to now who knows. I wonder how many of them are dusting off the resume and floating it out now?

Don't ever buy that garbage during indoc about "This is the last job you'll ever have".

 

[PHXFLYR]

[
....These are all grown men with decades of experience in the aviation industry you are refering to. They have earned respect for that if nothing else. These are men with children, many still in college......


And guess what...so are we!

PHXFLYR

 

[Andy]

Well, looking at it objectively from the outside; you missed something. (i guess that would be #4)

4. NOT agree to a joint contract, the carriers will NOT be integrated, continue to operate separately and the combined list will be 'meaningless.' Then all of the retirements/attrition on the East side will go to East pilots. Guys will upgrade, move to the widebodies and int'l flying (thus getting some pay increase), and if this continues for about 5 yrs. of so; it will be like a 'pilot imposed fence,' something the arbitrator probably should have done.

You haven't fully thought that one out, have you? With Parker operating under two separate contracts, he can shift block hours and equipment from one contract to the other. Which way do you think he's likely to go, should he choose that action? To the side where he has a happy work force, or to the side where the work force wants to burn the place down?
Yep, East can operate under a separate contract until all that's left is a couple of baggage carts. Good plan.

 

[Green]

Harsh, but true grog. What do you West sides think about our guys that keep on picking up all the extra flying?

One of them is our PHX FO rep!!!!!! 99-101 hours per month...month after month. This while we are in the middle of a DO YOUR OWN JOB CAMPAIGN. Somebody needs to have a serious talk with this rep. Thank god our reps were'nt in charge of the merger committee.