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Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

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AutoBus:

Every East guy I have talked to expected their rightful place on the list.....length of service with one caveat. The caveat is that active pilots could not be furloughed by a returning furloughee. This may seem unfair at first blush to the AWA pilots as if U furloughed again, ODell and his classmates jobs would be at risk. But since the AWA guys thought their company was doing so well, I can't figure out why.

This type of integration would have allowed the East pilots to enjoy a few years in the left seat trying to put back their financial house in order before retiring. The West pilots advancement would not be delayed as there would be twice the opportunities, widebody flying, and with perhaps a 7 year fence, the floodgates and everyone, including ODell would be ready to upgrade. The West guys forget the average age of the East group including the furlougees. When I was furloughed, there were a grand total of 3 pilots on the East list under the age of 40. The average age was 52. That was 4 years ago.

This would have preserved the U pilots expectations of what was left of their careers and protected the career expectations of the AWA pilots as well. (as I have heard ODell expected a 7 year upgrade). Now ODell can upgrade in 4 years and the East guys will never upgrade.

A350
 
As one of the pilots on both list I can tell you I never planned on returning to AAA because I felt they were going to liquidate. I didn't get involved in jets for jobs or mid Atlantic because of the same reason. I just stayed at Polar flying a ratted out 747 until AWA hired me. After spending my time at polar doing s-h-i-t work and 16 day trips I was super excited when AWA hired me. I moved for PIT to PHX and felt I was finally away from the USAIRWAYS name forever.

Fast forward the merger was shoved down out throats. Not very many AWA pilots were excited about the entire deal.

Arbitration award comes out. I basically maintain my relative seniority of active pilots taken at the snap shot. Even if I wasn't at AWA I realized that my 99 AAA hire was going to be stapled. I thought the senior furloughees would have been give possible consideration, but I guess I was wrong on that one. I also felt the top several hundred would be protected and that the widebodys would be fenced.

I have said from the beginning that I would accept what the arbitrator awards. I realize that his decision is binding and there is no recourse.

I can really understand the anger on the East. I guess the easties have been prepped and prepared to receive DOH even though it is not in the merger policy. Also at the last meeting with the arbitration he stated that this was going to be awarded via ratios and slotting. The East did not back down on the DOH plan and the West maintained their plan. So this is the final result.

One thing the east needs to realize is there is not going to be a big influx of west people bidding east. The majority of the west pilots live out west. I don't see too many people taking that PHL reserve upgrade.

I have always told the west pilots that the east pilots are a good bunch of people to fly with. I realize we all have bad apples on both sides, but if this colossal mess ever gets worked out I look forward to flying with the east pilots again.
 
A350 said:
AutoBus:

(as I have heard ODell expected a 7 year upgrade). Now ODell can upgrade in 4 years and the East guys will never upgrade.

A350
Click to expand...

Then you don't understand how this works Dave won't see upgrade around here for atleast another 7yrs and that's on top of the time he has in already. No one's relative position changed that much. Bottom of the list at either carrier yeilded the bottom of the list at newco.


WD.
 
A350 said:
AutoBus:

Every East guy I have talked to expected their rightful place on the list.....length of service with one caveat. The caveat is that active pilots could not be furloughed by a returning furloughee. This may seem unfair at first blush to the AWA pilots as if U furloughed again, ODell and his classmates jobs would be at risk. But since the AWA guys thought their company was doing so well, I can't figure out why.

This type of integration would have allowed the East pilots to enjoy a few years in the left seat trying to put back their financial house in order before retiring. The West pilots advancement would not be delayed as there would be twice the opportunities, widebody flying, and with perhaps a 7 year fence, the floodgates and everyone, including ODell would be ready to upgrade. The West guys forget the average age of the East group including the furlougees. When I was furloughed, there were a grand total of 3 pilots on the East list under the age of 40. The average age was 52. That was 4 years ago.

This would have preserved the U pilots expectations of what was left of their careers and protected the career expectations of the AWA pilots as well. (as I have heard ODell expected a 7 year upgrade). Now ODell can upgrade in 4 years and the East guys will never upgrade.

A350
Click to expand...

That's the typically east position, we deserve this we deserve that, you got what you deserved! YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO MY POSITION OR MY SENORITY, And that's what the easties want. AWA and AAA brought active aircraft and crews to that table that's what gets considered in the seniorty list. DOH in this case does not, lenght of service does not. It's relative position. Read the alpa merger policy some time, don't like it? quit!

Oh the Easties are in a huff right now, but I'm betting your lawyers are telling you the same thing at your emergency meeting.


Let's not confuse the facts....

THIS AWARD IS NOT A WINDFALL FOR THE AWA GUYS, POSITION WISE I AM ABOUT WHERE I WAS, THAT'S FAIR!! oh but the poor east guys, the arbitrator did not allow you to steal MY Job, carrer expectations or senorty. OH That's right you've given up Sooo Muchhh!! maybe we should just give you poor guys a break.

You screwed up YOUR OLD company with labor costs (parity plus 1%), work rules and laziness.
 
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AutoBus said:
You screwed up YOUR OLD company with labor costs (parity plus 1%), work rules and laziness.
Click to expand...


Autobus the parity plus 1% was a concessionary contract that wolf shoved down their throats. Yes this was a paycut contract. Wolf said if you don't sign this he will cancel the 400 airbus orders and downsize the airline.

Then United and Delta got big contracts and this blew up in Wolfs face and they had to give us a raise.
 
UALjan15 said:
So here's a magic question: If you could go back and undo the merger, would you? My guess is that the vast majority of AWA guys would go it on our own in a heartbeat, even with this integration. I've yet to hear an AAA guy say that they should have gone it alone, because deep down, they knew where that road was leading.
Click to expand...

BINGO!

After the list came out, every AWA guy/gal who has asked me how I felt about it got the same answer: "I still wish this merger never had happened."
I think even more so, now. But can the EAST side say the same thing now, let alone BEFORE the list came out???
 
DustyBottoms said:
BINGO!

After the list came out, every AWA guy/gal who has asked me how I felt about it got the same answer: "I still wish this merger never had happened."
I think even more so, now. But can the EAST side say the same thing now, let alone BEFORE the list came out???
Click to expand...

Agreed, for better or worse I wish this merger never happened.
 
Auto:

Re read my post, then yours. If you have reading comprehension skills above the first grade you will understand the following points.

I don't want your job. Never did, never will. However, You have no right to the attrition of the East. Any idiot who can read a seniority list can figure out that in less than 10 years, the upper half of the combined list will be ALL West pilots. That includes the widebodies, that includes the upgrades. The progression of a West pilot possibly included a 7 year upgrade. With the business what it has been the past few years with high fuel and competition, lets say it could be up to 9 years. And we are talking about the LAST guy on the west list. This will come to pass easily. An East pilot, who has been continually employed for the past 19 years may never upgrade. If you think this passes the windfall test, you aren't thinking rationally.

My particular situation is not unique. A single digit seniority number awaited me....all I had to do is keep a medical until I was 60 and for the last 5 years of my career, I would be flying whatever I wanted, wherever I wanted. Looking forward now, I will be lucky to upgrade when I am 50 (7 years from now and in my 25th year) and never break the 1000 mark on the list. That hardly passes the stink test either. I am one of the youngest guys from the 1989 classes.

Quit? I already work elsewhere. Coming back was a possibility. Now it is only possible if my current company fails completely. This is a moot point for me but for my brothers/sisters at the East, this is a complete slam.

Your rant about how I and my fellow easties "screwed" up the company, you sir are an uneducated a$$. At least we HAD work rules and a pension to take. And if there wasn't any east flying, you would have nothing to look forward to other than your west flying. No merger, AWA would be hurting. Just ask your CEO.

I will give you the last word. Please try not to spew uneducated accusations.

A350
 
Try this for comphrension. In 2015 Mr. Odell will have moved up approximately 2300 numbers. Now obviously, the AWA list is what. About 1800 total? Out of those 2300 numbers. 1800 from the East, 500 from the West. And those retirement numbers are from those that were active, not any furloughees....

So for arguments sake, fleet stays the same, etc. Mr. Odell, in 8 years will have climbed up to be in the 50% of the Seniority list. Whereas, If AWA would have stayed static and not shrunk by 15%, Mr. Odell would have moved about 500 spots on normal AWA retirements, and put him about 71% of his list. Now this is just over 8 years. No windfall here?? He gains 20% of seniority simply from the East side retirements. With only 500 retirements on the West side, a threat of shrinking 15% and 839 f/o's senior to him, I highly doubt he was looking at upgrade in 8 years, Would imagine it would take a little while longer, as all of your retirements are not straight from Capt. positions either, as you like to throw about the east numbers.
 
Crzipilot said:
Try this for comphrension. In 2015 Mr. Odell will have moved up approximately 2300 numbers. Now obviously, the AWA list is what. About 1800 total? Out of those 2300 numbers. 1800 from the East, 500 from the West. And those retirement numbers are from those that were active, not any furloughees....

So for arguments sake, fleet stays the same, etc. Mr. Odell, in 8 years will have climbed up to be in the 50% of the Seniority list. Whereas, If AWA would have stayed static and not shrunk by 15%, Mr. Odell would have moved about 500 spots on normal AWA retirements, and put him about 71% of his list. Now this is just over 8 years. No windfall here?? He gains 20% of seniority simply from the East side retirements. With only 500 retirements on the West side, a threat of shrinking 15% and 839 f/o's senior to him, I highly doubt he was looking at upgrade in 8 years, Would imagine it would take a little while longer, as all of your retirements are not straight from Capt. positions either, as you like to throw about the east numbers.
Click to expand...

You can doubt all you want about our upgrades over here but when I was hired the up grades were running 7-8yrs. Now I am 2yrs senior to Dave but be that as it may I was still looking at up grade in 2010 or 2011 now it more like 2014!!!! So just for argument sake what were the AAA up grades running prior to the buyout??? you guessed it 22yrs!!! The east made out just fine in this thing. They need to get a clue and move on!!!

WD.
 
Wiskey Driver said:
You can doubt all you want about our upgrades over here but when I was hired the up grades were running 7-8yrs. Now I am 2yrs senior to Dave but be that as it may I was still looking at up grade in 2010 or 2011 now it more like 2014!!!! So just for argument sake what were the AAA up grades running prior to the buyout??? you guessed it 22yrs!!! The east made out just fine in this thing. They need to get a clue and move on!!!

WD.
Click to expand...

Wasn't "doubting" your upgrades. Was speaking on at the merger time, everything being stagnant, and how people would flow due to attrition, no growth etc. Just looking at age 60 it showed the west with 490 or so by 2015. East was 1800 of just the active guys. 2363 if you include the furloughees.... Either way, it's bound to be interesting. Need a spreadsheet guru to layout a spreadsheet with all the numbers on it...
 
Ya there are, their names appear twice on the list. I believe they get their choice of which number they want. Hard decision. LOL....think they averaged increasing their number by 1000+ spots or more, by getting hired 4 years later or so....
 
Crzipilot said:
Ya there are, their names appear twice on the list. I believe they get their choice of which number they want. Hard decision. LOL....think they averaged increasing their number by 1000+ spots or more, by getting hired 4 years later or so....
Click to expand...

Yo Criz do you still have a Mustang?

Red Cobra from your class.
 
Crzipilot said:
Wasn't "doubting" your upgrades. Was speaking on at the merger time, everything being stagnant, and how people would flow due to attrition, no growth etc. Just looking at age 60 it showed the west with 490 or so by 2015. East was 1800 of just the active guys. 2363 if you include the furloughees.... Either way, it's bound to be interesting. Need a spreadsheet guru to layout a spreadsheet with all the numbers on it...
Click to expand...

One thing you have to factor in is the west has a bunch of attrition to other carriers. They always have and always will. We still have guys bailing. It is starting to sound like a good idea to me.
 
FR8mastr said:
Because the guys that are slotted around you are much older, so right about the time you and the guys around you start to upgrade they retire.

So a guy from the east that would have had a couple of years as captain before being shown the door now will not get that chance because of the much younger "relative seniority" West pilots that are now senior to him

What this means basically is in 5-10 years the remaining West pilots will hold the vast majority of the Captain slots, while the EX East pilots will hold the FO slots
Click to expand...

At AWA if you can hold CA but are 58 or older, you are awarded CA and paid, just not trained, so you get CA pay to sit right seat and bid top of the list. Whose going to shed any tears for him?
 
Boeing747Driver said:
Yo Criz do you still have a Mustang?

Red Cobra from your class.
Click to expand...


Hey man, Wellllll, still have the '65, the '94 got wrapped around a telephone pole, Long story.....LOL. Anyways looking at getting another one here possibly, BUT have a son that's starting to throw hints as to what he wants in 2.5 years (he's almost 14) So I might be buying a Chevy sprint instead...hahah......If he ends up driving a car anywhere close to how he does a Jetski...
 
Boeing747Driver said:
One thing you have to factor in is the west has a bunch of attrition to other carriers. They always have and always will. We still have guys bailing. It is starting to sound like a good idea to me.
Click to expand...



Be more than happy to show you the door,as would a few others. Might want to take your buddy Trainer 8 along with you.


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
nwaredtail said:
Your whole "unfair" argument seems to hinge on the treatment of the furloughees, not the active pilots on the list. The arbitrator obviously concluded that they shouldn't get the same treatment as active pilots. I happen to agree with him, but I'm willing to listen to examples from the past of how furloughees have been integrated.

Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...

That's what I took also. Instead of the East furloughees being p'ssed at the AWA guys, who have never been furloughed, why don't they thank the senior USAir pilot's who gave all of the narrowbody flying away during the contract negotiations to try to save their own pensions? This extended their furloughs and now screws them even more.

Constantly amazed at the thought process of pilots.[/quote]


Thought process and pilots...isn't that an oxymoron?;)

PHXFLYR:cool:
 
PHXFLYR said:
Thought process and pilots...isn't that an oxymoron?;)

PHXFLYR:cool:
Click to expand...


That I like!


Now back to the topic, the "arbitration award":

Was it fair? I don't know, "fair" is dependant upon who is looking & deciding. Personally the decision seems a little 1 sided to me. Unreasonably so? Maybe not. Any way you look at it, it was going to be a herculean task to integrate 2 seniority lists, 1 with 2005 new hires the other with 1988 furloughs.

3 things I am certain of:

1. Glad I didn't have to make the decision.

2. I was fairly certain that the decision wouldn't be DOH, and stated so several times.

3. When the decision came out, with any thing less that DOH, the AAA boys would scream like they had a body part severed.



Let's not forget that the AWA boys didn't make this happen, so don't take your frustration out on them.
 
I read the post by the former U guy who is now NJA.

All I can say is I feel for you guys. You deserve better.

This situation should be used as the example when someone wants a definition of "turbulence" when we talk about how turbulent an airline career is. Uncertain future, unexpected twists and turns, broken promises, starting all over somewhere else halfway or more into your major career. In years past it was Frank Lorenzo, Legacy domination, LCC expansion, or 9/11 that crushed more than a few careers. Right now its further consolidation thru merger.

I like to think that knowledge is power, but knowledge is often of little use in this career. Crazy things happen. It was unusual when AWA used investor cash to buy USAir.

More than anything it hurts when young guys, through timing, work their way in ahead of you. No apologies are recognition of their luck. Often they just say too bad for you and good for me.

ALPA can work for you, but is often powerless or unwilling to work your issue.

When good things happen to folks in this industry I am most likely to think "What a lucky break" no matter what it is. I used to think it had to do with good planning, but no longer.

I think the young guys still believe their superior smarts and skill guide their careers. Unfortunately, many will learn otherwise when they get the shaft at some point.
 
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