Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[Doug Parker]

.


Hey Chingadero,

you said AWA pilots never flew WB aircraft - looks like the Price is Wrong, Bitch !!!

What about all of the East jumpseaters that all they could talk about was bidding West to fly Hawaii ?? Where the hell was the expectaion of the East to fly Hawaii ?? Was that coming shortly after the East exited bankruptcy ?? Yeah, I'll give you that they were going to exit bankruptcy - but it wasn't through reorganization, it was going to be LIQUIDATION.

Suck to be you,

Peace Out


.

 

[UALjan15]

This is starting to remind me of the fallout from the AA/TWA integration. No, there aren't a whole lot of similarities in the process, but what I find amazing is how genuinely hard it is to see the other side's point when you are involved in the fight.

I have good friends on both sides of the AA/TWA merger/acquisition/whatever, and on any other subject they are pretty much rational and open-minded. But bring up that integration, and all the AA guys can spout off is how lucky the TWA group was to be saved by them, and they should be grateful for a staple job, yada yada. Likewise, my TWA buds remain in complete denial over the state of their airline pre-merger, and cast all AA pilots as greedy bastards. The wounds are deep, and I don't see this getting much better with the passage of time.

Now that I am part of my own integration debacle (and they are ALL debacles!), I see myself falling into the same trap. For every east guy that cries about his 18 years of service and how can he be junior to some snot-nosed AWA new hire, I just want to scream Because that's where you would be after your airline liquidated and you came to AWA as a new hire! Likewise, I'm seeing zero open-mindedness from east to west. We're all just too close to the fight to be objective.

This brings me to my point. Love or loathe ALPA, they represent us all, and we live under their bylaws (voluntarily, I might add). We all had the choice of negotiating a integrated list outside of arbitration, but emotions ruled the day, and we all sent this to binding arbitration. At that point we gave up control of the process, knowing that favorable or not, we would have to live with the outcome. For months, our merger committees and the arbitrator did nothing but chew on this case, trying to adhere to ALPA merger policy. Finally, an outcome emerges, and the uproar begins. Where do we get off, as the peanut gallery on FI.com, calling this fair or unfair? Unless you sat in that room every day and listened to the case, or at a minimum read the entire report, you are just ranting emotions.

I know I am too close to this to be objective. If you have a dog in this fight, you are, too. I'm most interested in the take of those that have no stake either way.

Finally, we have to move forward somehow. I know from history that moving forward usually means entrenching ourselves in our respective positions and begrudging each other for the next 20 years. That is why I wanted no part of this merger in the first place. All of this talk about shutting down the negotiations, burning down the place, etc....WTF is the point? You've got your relative seniority, same seat, no bump/flush, and your widebody fences. Without a joint contract, you've got LOA 93 for another 3 or so years, and I would have to think that with retirement looming, you'd rather spend those 3 years earning decent money. Oh, and just to let a little secret out--there's not exactly a stampede of guys out here ready to go bid your system.

 

[trainer8]

Like I said,if you're "not sure he did you a favor",I would be more than happy to show you where the door is. The only pilots that have earned the right to complain are the 1590 furloughed pilots who have had the professional rug pulled out from under them,not some BarbieJet pilot who "negotiated" himself a new senority number.

PHXFLYR

And, like I said, you've confirmed my original post regarding professional posts on this board.

T8

 

[PlaneDrvr]

This is starting to remind me of the fallout from the AA/TWA integration. No, there aren't a whole lot of similarities in the process, but what I find amazing is how genuinely hard it is to see the other side's point when you are involved in the fight.

I have good friends on both sides of the AA/TWA merger/acquisition/whatever, and on any other subject they are pretty much rational and open-minded. But bring up that integration, and all the AA guys can spout off is how lucky the TWA group was to be saved by them, and they should be grateful for a staple job, yada yada. Likewise, my TWA buds remain in complete denial over the state of their airline pre-merger, and cast all AA pilots as greedy bastards. The wounds are deep, and I don't see this getting much better with the passage of time.

Now that I am part of my own integration debacle (and they are ALL debacles!), I see myself falling into the same trap. For every east guy that cries about his 18 years of service and how can he be junior to some snot-nosed AWA new hire, I just want to scream Because that's where you would be after your airline liquidated and you came to AWA as a new hire! Likewise, I'm seeing zero open-mindedness from east to west. We're all just too close to the fight to be objective.

This brings me to my point. Love or loathe ALPA, they represent us all, and we live under their bylaws (voluntarily, I might add). We all had the choice of negotiating a integrated list outside of arbitration, but emotions ruled the day, and we all sent this to binding arbitration. At that point we gave up control of the process, knowing that favorable or not, we would have to live with the outcome. For months, our merger committees and the arbitrator did nothing but chew on this case, trying to adhere to ALPA merger policy. Finally, an outcome emerges, and the uproar begins. Where do we get off, as the peanut gallery on FI.com, calling this fair or unfair? Unless you sat in that room every day and listened to the case, or at a minimum read the entire report, you are just ranting emotions.

I know I am too close to this to be objective. If you have a dog in this fight, you are, too. I'm most interested in the take of those that have no stake either way.

Finally, we have to move forward somehow. I know from history that moving forward usually means entrenching ourselves in our respective positions and begrudging each other for the next 20 years. That is why I wanted no part of this merger in the first place. All of this talk about shutting down the negotiations, burning down the place, etc....WTF is the point? You've got your relative seniority, same seat, no bump/flush, and your widebody fences. Without a joint contract, you've got LOA 93 for another 3 or so years, and I would have to think that with retirement looming, you'd rather spend those 3 years earning decent money. Oh, and just to let a little secret out--there's not exactly a stampede of guys out here ready to go bid your system.

If it will make you feel better listening, I will tell you that I don't have a dog in this fight. That said, I have done a fair amount of consulting work, writte, researched and know that industry quite well.

The problem that I have with most of the postings/info on this board is that I deal pretty much in just 'factual' information. On this subject, when people say that the old US Air was going to 'liquidate, go out of business, or AWA saved US Air, or AWA bought US Air, etc, and so on' and all of this is just "rhetorical babble." Just like this was all Doug Parker's idea. The truth is the idea/plan for this merger came from the then CFO of the old US Air, who took the idea to Lakefield, then to Parker and the outside investors. The planning started well over six months before this merger was consummated. Yet the rhetoric is that US Air was just 'days' away from liquidating. Do you realize how much time it takes to put together a deal like this? I do. AWA did Not 'buy' US Air, as I don't think that they had $1.6B in the bank to write a check. All of the money people were in place long before this deal ever took place, and these money people knew exactly what the situation was. Most of the talk of US Air's imminent dismise was more designed to 'sell the merger' to the regulators, gov't, etc. I suppose you also believe that Parker (and Goldman Sachs, of course) were just going to 'save Delta' a few months ago??? Well, enough about that whole financial thing, on to the Arbitrator.

I have read the transcripts of the hearings and also the Arbritation ruling/findings; and the Arbritator seem to place some significance on the financial plight of the old US Air and also the possible financial future of AWA. None of this is (or should be), within the scope of his arbritation, the so called, 'failing carrier doctrine.' There were those who wanted to bring this issue up in the FedEx/Flying Tiger arbritation; that Flying Tigers was failing and needed to merge. That issue was set aside as not appropriate for an arbritator to decide, as he should not 'guess' or try to predict what might have occurred in the future, rightfully so.

No where that I know of in ALPA merger policy does it call for an examination or prediction of the financial future of a carrier. However, once the arbitrator in this case took a 'strange detour' into this area, didn't he have an obligation to examine, as people often say in merger times, "what you have brought to the table"?? Fact, over 2/3ths of the revenue of the New US Airways (LCC) is generated from the old US Air (East), also a higher yield (leading the the Net$$), comes from the East system. Have you read the financials?? Yes, LCC was very profitale last year, and that was due, in a Very Very large part, from the East, the old US Air. But, again, ALPA merger policy does not call for this evaluation, as the arbitrator make a 'guess' or prediction as to what would have happen to a carrier had a merger not taken place. The Arbritator has an obligation to do no more than take the status quo, and take into account 'planned growth' (a/c orders), or reasonable growth or contraction, when figuring progression/movement and 'career expectations.'

With the number of retirements on the old US Air (East) side, even accounting for little or not growth, even some contraction, US Air would have needed to recall approximately 180-250 pilots/yr. And, with the retirements there would have been normal upgrades and movement from narrow-wide body progression. Had the Arbritator figured the 'retirements' into his calculation, and placed a 5-7 yr (maybe less) 'base fence' (and probably an 7-8 yr fence on the wide-body flying, as AWA has pretty much NO career expectation of flying a wide-body), and even given that probably only 50-60% of the furloughees would ever return; all of the furloughees would have returned due to retirements in probably less than 4 yrs. and there still would have been some 'windfall' to the AWA guys, due to the future retirees. And, I looked over both of the seniority proposals, and with the above stated fences, looking out about 5yrs. things would have looked about like the East proposal would have predicted, and everyone would have benefited. Well? Instead, it seems that he gave, all of the windfall of the retirements on the East side to the West side, and created little or NO career progression on the East side.

Ergo, the Arbritator did not follow ALPA merger policy, NOT even close, and futhermore, went beyond his scope in attempting to make future financial predictions and assumptions about the carriers involved; again, Not part of ALPA merger policy. And, to tell you the truth, I have been in this business for over 25yrs. (cargo, passenger, etc), consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the business/industry, and even I would not want to make any predictions about where any one carrier will be financially, six months or a year from now, as that is the nature of the business. Not sure why he (the Arbitrator) wanted to stray into that area.

That said, I will repeat what I said in my previous post; all this ruling/finding did is basically insure that these two carriers will NEVER be integrated. Now there is no incentive for the East guys to ever agree to a 'joint contract' as they would be taking money (maybe a little money), and losing seniority and career progression. And, as I stated before, how many times has Parker said that he has no problem with continuing to operate as two separate carriers with two separate contracts?? Also, stated before, with domestic demand weakening, and the potential of 'open skies with Europe' next year, any possible growth would have to come from U.S. to Europe (with 757/767s, and additional A330, probably next year); and most (if not all) of this growth would more than likely go to the East. So, the East not agreeing to any contract/integration, means "all" of the windfall of retirements benefiting the East (none going to the West) and the possibility of added Int'l flying to Europe. So again, tell me, as a AWA pilot, exactly how does this ruling benefit you??

And, all because the arbritator did not follow ALPA merger policy. As a 'fair' integration, as the policy calls for, would have meant everyone, (East, West, furloughees, etc) move ahead, benefited.

My guess/prediction; I see further stagnation on the West side, small growth/progression on the East, and little liklihood of any pay increase for anyone.

For what its worth, but you did ask for view from the 'outside'

Sorry to go on so long, but this should have the morons plenty to 'rant' about. Have fun, but remember, I really don't give a rat's a$$ what any of you think. That's why I lead a totally 'stress-free' life; that and the fact that I invested my money well (meaning somewhere other than aviation).

DA

 

[PlaneDrvr]

.


Hey Chingadero,

you said AWA pilots never flew WB aircraft - looks like the Price is Wrong, Bitch !!!

What about all of the East jumpseaters that all they could talk about was bidding West to fly Hawaii ?? Where the hell was the expectaion of the East to fly Hawaii ?? Was that coming shortly after the East exited bankruptcy ?? Yeah, I'll give you that they were going to exit bankruptcy - but it wasn't through reorganization, it was going to be LIQUIDATION.

Suck to be you,

Peace Out


.

Not sure if this reply was to me, but I never said that AWA never flew wide-bodies. However, given the mindless posts and rants that you have written here; I offer this old thought for you;

"It is often better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Read it slowly, take your time and think about, I am sure that you will get it.....never mind, probably NOT. Just keep talking, as it comes out to everyone very clear

That's all for you, little man. Don't have time for those who are too stupid to think clearly for themselves.

DA

 

[DustyBottoms]

I really don't give a rat's a$$ what any of you think. That's why I lead a totally 'stress-free' life; that and the fact that I invested my money well (meaning somewhere other than aviation).

DA

HAhaha! A stress free life? You say this after posting over a couple thousand word diatribe?

…and the fact that you needed to tell everyone how well of an investor you are, was priceless! You can’t get drama like that!!! –I love it!!!!!!

I’m not even going to delve back into your essays for your hypocrisies, I need a drink. It’s still Cinco de Mayo somewhere, right? Or is that 5 o’clock?

 

[TWA Dude]

If it will make you feel better listening, I will tell you that I don't have a dog in this fight. That said, I have done a fair amount of consulting work, writte, researched and know that industry quite well.

PD: that was a well thought-out post but by claiming Nicolau didn't follow ALPA Merger Policy all you're really doing is interpreting it differently. I don't want to put myself in the position of trying to defend Nicolau's reasoning so suffice it to say you and him don't see eye to eye on the meaning of "career expectations" which by necessity means making certain guesses regarding the future.

 

[tomgoodman]

Course reversal?

All this accomplished is 'guarantee' that there will NOT be an integration of the two carriers...

Hmmm... If this is true, what are the chances that Parker will try to SELL one of the pieces, collect a fat bonus, and move on?

 

[Saabslime]

I find it laughable at how some on the east side say that the arbitrator didn't follow ALPA merger policy while their MEC's only argument was for DOH which was specifically removed from that same policy years ago. Hypocrisy at its finest.

I don't think I've ever seen more self centered, selfish, irrational behavior from a group of people who want to call themselves professionals. All this talk about burning down the house (even though the company didn't have a hand in this whatsoever) without any regard for the fact that there are thousands of other employees outside of the pilot group who's livelihood is tied to the success of this company. You have no one to blame but yourselves. Your MEC and merger committee fought for what you as a pilot group directed them to fight for and they did no matter how unreasonable it was and lost the argument (as if it stood any chance in the first place). It's time to pick yourselves up, act like adults and move on. With some of the attitudes I've seen displayed so far, I shudder to think that some of you actually have children that look up to you as role models.

 

[hooter]

I am totally pissed on the basis of principal and integrity. Nicolau, the arbitrator, has neither and has totally f**** over the furloughed U guys with 15 years seniority and basically every U pilot that was furloughed. It should have no bearing on weather a pilot has been furloughed as to where he should rightly be on the new list. This is a matter of right and wrong and the U GUYS GOT WRONGED BIG TIME. Hope all the junior aw guys enjoy their windfall.