Awa Merger

[IHaveAPension]

My buddy at USAirs told me the current talk is of no DOH integration to appease the AWA pilots and to appease the USAir pilots, the current PHX based AWA pilots will have to relocate to PHL and the PHX flying will be done by current USAir PHL pilots. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. What do you think?

 

[321 busdriver]

How exactly would you expect me to react to a statement such as " we're the most beligerent, obnoxious group of pilots you've ever seen?"

Just look at the post by Crzipilot right after yours posted above ... I rest my case.


Re: "Bite Me" I thought you original Piedmont guys had more class than that

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Just received a DOH lecture jumpseating to work on you guys yesterday....should have known better. Sad part is it was the 3rd time I've heard that sentiment from you guys in the last 5 days and to be quite honest with you, I'm getting pretty fed up with it. Like I said in an earlier post.... I rest my case. Good night.

PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Where did I ever say I expected to fly the A330/A350? Currently AWA doesn't have the A330. I have no/zero career expectation of every flying this airplane. The A350 will be a new type to both airlines, so yes I guess I can have a small expectation if I'm around long enough. .

The A350 is simply an outgrowth of the A330. Same type rating, just spruced up to compete with the B787. Enjoy it! It should be a nice ride. Training on it will most likely be in CLT, as that's where the sim is. (the sim is convertible, even to the A340, as our options included A340's as well.....little known fact.) Believe it or not, great Mexican food very close to the hotel.

By most accounts, including the road show given to you guys before the merger was announced, it was find a partner or liquidate. I believe ALPA and the Unions did their own economic analysis and knew too that the writing was on the wall.

News Flash: This holds true for almost all airlines today save for the true "discounters." Your airline is no different, buddy. It's the much talked about "Industry Consolidation," and America West would have been freekin' toast had consolidation left it out in the cold. You are so arrogant (naive, really) to think differently.

I don't have any crazy career expectations. In fact, I'll be happy to keep my job. But I don't think that I should go to the street for some guy that has given six years flying a CRJ for a wholly owned. We have guys here that put in 10 years at US Air wholly owned regionals. Should they get a jump in seniority to honor their time?

First off, I was mainline, and most of my time at US Airways was in the Airbus. The CRJ thing is through Jets-4-Jobs, a little thing set up by those AAA Union guys that you and your buddies have been trashing.

Next, and most importantly, I don't think you or anyone else should "go to the street." I've never said that, and never will. Perhaps you've not worked for a carrier with huge retirements in the forecast, so I'll fill you in: it does affect career expectations, and it is a real force that moves people up the list in a big hurry. That's one thing that "my" group is bringing to the table, and is the reason why no one should have to see the street.

The line has to be drawn in the sand at some point. I don't want to fly your precious A330 and I don't want you bumping me out of PHX.

Oh, OK.....fine. Sheeze, what are we arguing about then? I thought you said I was never going to be recalled, that my expectations were......how did you say........ZERO. Now you say my career is still on track, minus about eight years of messing around? OK, good......we agree then. Hell, I've lived in PHX.....you can have it!

It's funny, the only sounds of anger are coming from the USAir furloughed guys.

Really? I think Whiskey Driver sounds pretty angry. PHXFLYR is getting a little bent out of shape. WD ain't even coherent.....he's talkin' major trash and swinging at the fences. Ever since this thing was announced the first thing out of anyone's mouth is "well those go*&^%med US Air fourloughees anin't getting anything! Period!" That's what every AWA guy on here has spewed, more or less (Exception: TWA Dude, because he's got some seasoning and some maturity.)

Most of the current flying guys on here seem great and they seem all for letting ALPA merger policy run its course. They also seem like stand-up guys that will be great to fly with once the dust settles.

Yeah, well, you'll have to trust on this one, but the US Air guys are great to fly with too. Oh, I know, I know.....someone rode in a van once and so and so said......But really, US Air was a great place to work. It will be again.

As I said before, I think it sucks you were furloughed. But you were furloughed for reasons that had nothing do to with AWA. I'm not willing to give up my job to bring you back - nothing personal.

And, as I've said before, I wouldn't think of asking you to. What none of you guys seem to want to admit is that there's a potential windfall for you. You keep saying things like "you were never going to be recalled" and "your career expectations were zero" and it certainly seems like your trying to take something that never belonged to you. Listen close: US Air's demise has been the favorite USA Today story for as long as anyone can remember. They've been crying wolf since before Wolf worked here, and have been doing it ever since. But year after year, we keep paying the employees and hauling the pax. We haven't lost as much since 9/11 as Delta lost last year! And I say this not to flame or incite, but to tell you that US Air brings a lot more than debt and unwanted employees to the table. You and Whiskey D and PHXFLYR ought to give your CEO a little more credit than that.

 

[321 busdriver]

Just to clarify, you heard it from "you guys". You didn't hear it from me and won't. Generalizations are dangerous in all walks. Try not to lump all of us together. This will continue to be an emotional issue and there are going to be people on both sides that are going to say and attack AWA and U as a group. Do you really want to be one of "those guys?" Frankly, most of the "guys" I fly with really don't care one way or the other if this thing happens or not.

Just received a DOH lecture jumpseating to work on you guys yesterday....should have known better. Sad part is it was the 3rd time I've heard that sentiment from you guys in the last 5 days and to be quite honest with you, I'm getting pretty fed up with it. Like I said in an earlier post.... I rest my case. Good night.

PHXFLYR

 

[321 busdriver]

Excellent and accurate post.

The A350 is simply an outgrowth of the A330. Same type rating, just spruced up to compete with the B787. Enjoy it! It should be a nice ride. Training on it will most likely be in CLT, as that's where the sim is. (the sim is convertible, even to the A340, as our options included A340's as well.....little known fact.) Believe it or not, great Mexican food very close to the hotel.



News Flash: This holds true for almost all airlines today save for the true "discounters." Your airline is no different, buddy. It's the much talked about "Industry Consolidation," and America West would have been freekin' toast had consolidation left it out in the cold. You are so arrogant (naive, really) to think differently.



First off, I was mainline, and most of my time at US Airways was in the Airbus. The CRJ thing is through Jets-4-Jobs, a little thing set up by those AAA Union guys that you and your buddies have been trashing.

Next, and most importantly, I don't think you or anyone else should "go to the street." I've never said that, and never will. Perhaps you've not worked for a carrier with huge retirements in the forecast, so I'll fill you in: it does affect career expectations, and it is a real force that moves people up the list in a big hurry. That's one thing that "my" group is bringing to the table, and is the reason why no one should have to see the street.



Oh, OK.....fine. Sheeze, what are we arguing about then? I thought you said I was never going to be recalled, that my expectations were......how did you say........ZERO. Now you say my career is still on track, minus about eight years of messing around? OK, good......we agree then. Hell, I've lived in PHX.....you can have it!



Really? I think Whiskey Driver sounds pretty angry. PHXFLYR is getting a little bent out of shape. WD ain't even coherent.....he's talkin' major trash and swinging at the fences. Ever since this thing was announced the first thing out of anyone's mouth is "well those go*&^%med US Air fourloughees anin't getting anything! Period!" That's what every AWA guy on here has spewed, more or less (Exception: TWA Dude, because he's got some seasoning and some maturity.)



Yeah, well, you'll have to trust on this one, but the US Air guys are great to fly with too. Oh, I know, I know.....someone rode in a van once and so and so said......But really, US Air was a great place to work. It will be again.



And, as I've said before, I wouldn't think of asking you to. What none of you guys seem to want to admit is that there's a potential windfall for you. You keep saying things like "you were never going to be recalled" and "your career expectations were zero" and it certainly seems like your trying to take something that never belonged to you. Listen close: US Air's demise has been the favorite USA Today story for as long as anyone can remember. They've been crying wolf since before Wolf worked here, and have been doing it ever since. But year after year, we keep paying the employees and hauling the pax. We haven't lost as much since 9/11 as Delta lost last year! And I say this not to flame or incite, but to tell you that US Air brings a lot more than debt and unwanted employees to the table. You and Whiskey D and PHXFLYR ought to give your CEO a little more credit than that.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Just to clarify, you heard it from "you guys". You didn't hear it from me and won't. Generalizations are dangerous in all walks. Try not to lump all of us together. This will continue to be an emotional issue and there are going to be people on both sides that are going to say and attack AWA and U as a group. Do you really want to be one of "those guys?" Frankly, most of the "guys" I fly with really don't care one way or the other if this thing happens or not.

I'm trying not to , I really am ... But to be quite honest with you, between what I've experienced the last week or so and what I've read on this web board and others, it is getting more and more difficult. I appreciate the way you feel about some of these issues. I really do. But I'm beginning to wonder if you are in the minority. As for me, I hope this thing never sees the light of day and that we both can go our seperate ways. Best wishes.


PHXFLYR

 

[321 busdriver]

Thank you. I just called a friend of mine to ask him what he's hearing on line and in the cockpit. He said no one is even hardly talking about it. Mostly a non issue. Anyway, the point is, it's a hot topic with an obvious amount of emotion tied to it. I sincerely hope that not one AWA guy is adveresly affected. It would be easy to fall into a NWA/ Republic type of merger, but I personally think that no one wins in a case like that. Good luck to you as well and I officially retract my " bite me" statement.

I'm trying not to , I really am ... But to be quite honest with you, between what I've experienced the last week or so and what I've read on this web board and others, it is getting more and more difficult. I appreciate the way you feel about some of these issues. I really do. But I'm beginning to wonder if you are in the minority. As for me, I hope this thing never sees the light of day and that we both can go our seperate ways. Best wishes.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Re:.... " ...I officially retract my 'Bite Me' statement."


See ?? I knew you Piedmont guys were a class act!


PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.[/QUOTE]


Not sure which post of mine you were referring to, but no where have I said an AWA pilot should be put on the street. Anything I've heard from AWA guys have been....the furloughees have been cast off..and should have no right. So that way us AWA 6 month hires will gain the advantage of having 1900 age 60 retirees in front of us...and 1540 furloughees behind us. Let me see...that equals about 3500 numbers. Nope, no windfall there at all. I being a lowly line pilot have not a clue what would be the best avenue, though I did throw one thought out there, either way, there has to be a way (either fences, slotting / delayed recall, or something) which screws both sides equally.

As for the comment someone made that US was toast and it was mentioned in the roadshows, well actually, I think the roadshows said IF LOA 93/91 whichever wasn't passed it would put a hurt on US. After all the contract negotiations were done, There were 3 avenues to take. Look for a partner, go at it alone, or liquidation. That was the quote. So yes there was still a possibility of going at it alone. Was that the preferred route, don't know, Was consolidation the preferred route, I dont know. You see our current CEO is here as a favor to Bronner to watch over the place. As quoted he'd rather be playing golf than CEO. BUT he is/was a big time money/wallstreet guy, and most likely is the catalyst as to where all this money is coming in from for the MERGER. No AWA isn't putting up the money, neither is US. Third parties.

To the comment that our contracts are worthless, well that's wrong too. The comment that they can just be thrown out in BK court, well that's wrong too. Go read up on BK proceedings. there's a thing called 1113 which dictates how that is done, and well we've already gone there and done that. Our current agreements state the contracts agreed upon are the ones which will stand in BK and the company won't come after any more peanut butter jars, unless the company is in immenient danger of liquidation. Which appears to not be the case.

The Airbus 350 as a new type??? Well the Q/A portions have stated that is actually a replacement for the 330, IIRC the remainder of the 330 options will prob. be excercised (forget how many there are) and then when the 350 is available they will replace the 330's that are on the property. In fact had a SR 330 checkairman on the j/s and he said it would be a short transition course to the 350, such as going from the the 320 to the 330, something like that. Anyways, it wouldn't be a new fleet type from what I can see.

Then of course to your 10 yrs of seniority at a WO. That brings up another basket case, as you see there is now a CEL list. This allows the WO's that have agreed to the J4J program to flow up to MDA then ML, or just sit tight and flow up to ML when there is an opening. All of this is sewn into all the LOA US is so fond of creating. The other interesting point is that the LOA's at the WO's state that their LOA becomes null and void (for flying the jets) as soon as the J4J program becomes null and void. Sooooooo now you have a flow through which has to remain in place for the J4J program to remain in place. If you keep the furloughee guys out on the street, which would mean prob. keepng the J4J guys employed at the WO's, where do the WO's guys go in the integration??? Since their career expectations are also based on all those retirements that are forthcoming. (now would be a great time to visit a national seniority list or something along those lines. Put the AWA/US/WO's list together and figure it out from there) Either way it's gonna go be a monkey f****** a football to work this out.

 

[Cactus73]

Crzipilot,

As I said before, I'm not trying to start an argument here. My sincere hope is that Southwest comes in with a lot of cash, buys some gates, and lets AWA and USAir go their separate ways. If we each have enough to survive on our own, great.

I don't really know much about the A350. If you say its the same type, fine. I really don't care.

The retirement projections being tossed around by both our management and the guys on this board are a little optimistic. There are a lot of retirements at USAir but the majority are in the 5-10 year range not 2-3 year range. Furloughs are very likely to occur on both properties in the shorter term.

Parker was asked about the current furloughees at a town hall and he responded that he wouldn't allow a furlough employee to return to bump and active employee. He has to sign off on any seniority list.

You can say what you want about AWA's financial condition. It wasn't great but it wasn't dire. Both sides are going to bring investment banking firms and financial advisors to the arbitrator. Since we have no control over the decision of the arbitrator, let's let him/her decide.

If I were furloughed from AWA tomorrow because AWA was bankrupt, I wouldn't give up on my career expecations, but I would definitely consider them mostly gone. I would probably get out of aviation and do something else. If AWA then merged with another carrier, it would be nice to return, but I would have some great expectation.

The point here is that it doesn't matter what I think or you think for that matter. What happens to the furloughed pilots at both airlines is out of my/your control. I'm just giving my opinion that the furloughed pilots at Airways are stuck in a tough position. I have also been a little upset lately at both the statements made by USAir furloughed pilots both in person and on this board. Yes, your fellow pilot I met on the van fully expected me to go to the street to facilitate her return.

As for no AWA guys hitting the street, you are smoking too much of your own product if you think AWA guys aren't going to get furloughed in this deal.

 

[erjdude]

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.


Interesting concept here. Though talk of career expectations, Yes I'm furloughed at present time, BUT, as Airways has shown, it continues to limp along and survive, even though it's been rumored it's going Chp 7 for the past 5 yrs, or longer. With that said, expected recall date, with present fleet, prob. less than 5 years, more like 2 or less. Beyond that, I'm expected to spend last 10 yrs left seat of a widebody, retireing in the top 10 of the seniority list. With that being said, I should be brought back behind someone hired at AWA 3 months ago? Hmmmmm.......try again. Maybe take that concept, and as positions become open, the furloughees are brought back, with where they would be slotted with their seniority. Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.

crzipilot,

I have no reason to doubt your time line or career expectations at u if it did indeed stay in business on its own and you get recalled.


However answere this. Where would you be on the seniority list of active pilots on the first day you get recalled? I would be willing to bet a lot of money you would be on the bottom of the list!!!

I hope you are recalled and I hope you are given credit for years of service for pay, vacation etc. But simply by vertue of the fact you are furloughed means you are on the bottom of the list at u and you will remain at the bottom of the list. sorry.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well as I've been saying, not really arguing the point, just throwing ideas from both sides. I've just seen less ideas from the US side than the AWA side.
The retirements, well that's what we've been talking about is the 5-10 year range. As they aren't planning on putting the airline together until, 3 years down the road, which would prob. put it at the end of 2008/beginning of '09. Now the merger commitees must come up with a combined seniority list way before they are planning on putting the airlines together, one other interesting footnote is that the company can not use the combined seniority list, untill such time that a combined contract has been negotiated either. Which may delay the whole thing even more. So with those timelines, it looks like alot of U guys will be gone, and hence alot more room for the AWA to move up etc....be unaffected. What I really expect to see, is after Sept. as more U guys retire, and they need more pilots, there won't be recalls, but actually a transfer of flying over to the AWA side. I know they have said they won't pit the two groups against each other, but just the way it's been going on over here they are finding more and more ways to pare down the US list. They won't recall, and yet are short staffed. Some estimates by 3-400. Guys that are #2 in base on equipment are getting JA'd (or at least called for such) on a weekly daily basis. That shouldn't be happening......
And as I've said, it's going to goto arbritration and each side will be justly pissed off about something. Only one happy will be the #1 guy. #2 guy will be pissed 'cause he couldn't become #1.
As to statements, I agree, on another board there's a AWA EE (not sure if pilot or what) but he enjoys putting a big picture of a staple in the message threads, so ya both companies have their 10%ers.
As to the idea of SWA coming in and buying gates and letting us go seperate ways, naaaa...would rather see these two put together, albiet the seniority issue is going to be a snag for a bit across all work groups, and the combined entity run by someone that wants to run an airline. I think if done correctly the combined could be a force. A very big one. Now who in the Midwest has a decent size network we could gobble up?


As to ERJ, you made my point. I'm expected to be at the bottom of the U list and able to take advantage of the U retirements. Not share those retirements. So ya...I'd still be at the bottom, but there would be a much quicker upward mobility than what the AWA pilots are expecting out of their seniority list. I haven't seen the list but I suspect their list is quite a bit younger. I know there were alot of guys that got on with AWA during the mid/late 90's that bailed to go other places, etc etc.....and then after 9/11 they have repopulated their list with furloughees and such.....

Anyone know the projected retirements at AWA btw?

 

[Crzipilot]

Crzipilot,

As for no AWA guys hitting the street, you are smoking too much of your own product if you think AWA guys aren't going to get furloughed in this deal.

Ahh forgot the add, my product is very good, I learned from the best.....Flew S.America for about 9 years

 

[miles otoole]

Gonna be interesting if/when retirement moves up 3-5 years.

 

[Publishers]

It is the same mindset as " they took our flying". Well pilots do not have their flying either.

That said, revenue is not generated until the flight completes. Unearned revenue is what you have until then. If the flight never goes, then the revenue is returned as a no sale.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'm expected to be at the bottom of the U list and able to take advantage of the U retirements. Not share those retirements. So ya...I'd still be at the bottom, but there would be a much quicker upward mobility than what the AWA pilots are expecting out of their seniority list. I haven't seen the list but I suspect their list is quite a bit younger.

Very good point and very important part of the " career expectations " argument. As I said way towards the beginning of this thread, someone one at my age ( 40 ) and hire date ( Oct 89 ), even though furloughed now, would expect to be in the top 1% of the USAirways list upon retirement and have very good seniority their last five years ( i.e. widebody Captain ). That must be taken into account in any fair arbitration otherwise the younger AWA pilots get a huge windfall over the long term.


TP

( Widebody Captain at profitable intergalactic airline, so you can have my spot )

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Very good point and very important part of the " career expectations " argument. As I said way towards the beginning of this thread, someone one at my age ( 40 ) and hire date ( Oct 89 ), even though furloughed now, would expect to be in the top 1% of the USAirways list upon retirement and have very good seniority their last five years ( i.e. widebody Captain ). That must be taken into account in any fair arbitration otherwise the younger AWA pilots get a huge windfall over the long term.


TP

( Widebody Captain at profitable intergalactic airline, so you can have my spot )

AWA upgrade is 6 years now. Pre merger plans. Grow 5 to 10% a year.
Every AWA pilot on the list should be in the left seat in 6 years period. That is our career expectations. By the way I am also furloughed AAA and my career expectation is to never return to AAA due to liquidation. I do not expect to jump up on the post merger list being I have a number at both companys. Really I don't expect anything from the AAA MEC they didn't represent us when we were active and have totally written us off on furlough. My bet is the AAA MEC will write off the furloughed pilots to save the senior pilots. Sad but they have always been known to eat their young.

 

[Green]

typhoonpilot,

Career expectations? Do you honestly believe that without a lifeline from AWA your airline would be in business in 5 years, let alone 15? Furloughs are a terrible thing and this is a dirty, unfair business but I don't think that you can sanely bring career expectations into this argument. Without trying to sound like a complete a##hole, you don't have any career expectations as a furloughed US Airways pilot. We should be fair but bringing hundreds of AAA pilots off the street to sit captain for an AWA fo is not fair, regardless of when US Airways hired you.

 

[PHXFLYR]

321 Busdriver...see what I mean?

AWA upgrade is 6 years now. Pre merger plans. Grow 5 to 10% a year.
Every AWA pilot on the list should be in the left seat in 6 years period. That is our career expectations. By the way I am also furloughed AAA and my career expectation is to never return to AAA due to liquidation. I do not expect to jump up on the post merger list being I have a number at both companys. Really I don't expect anything from the AAA MEC they didn't represent us when we were active and have totally written us off on furlough. My bet is the AAA MEC will write off the furloughed pilots to save the senior pilots. Sad but they have always been known to eat their young.

This from one of your own.... See what I mean?

PHXFLYR