Avantair

[netjetwife]

"I'm still sikntired

(sorry NJW, I've got a bad attitude about corporate greed, and can't get myself to change my name)"

I think you have the right attitude. In light of the fight that still continues in the industry, I have decided that you're name makes sense, my friend. Our side has raised the bar, but too many other frac families are still coming up short. As if that's not bad enough, do we want their low wages and less desirable QOL used against us at the table 4 years from now? The other frac companies have their own leaders quite capable of forming a SU within their ranks. When a group has enough will and determination to fight, giving them advice and encouragement may be all it takes to make a difference. I think 1108 can easily do that, in spite of their busy agenda. We'll all be better off if each Strong Union is a part of a strong industry.

 

[netjetwife]

SCT, there are a number of NJ pilots who have skills and experience in other areas that would allow them to hold managerial positions. You are overstating (twisting) what I said. I never claimed they could run the company, but I have no doubt that there are many middle-management jobs some of the NJ pilots could do because they have had such jobs in the past.

Save the world? More exaggeration. You are putting a spin on my posts that is your own entirely. I have suggested that 1108 has the potential to change the fractional industry. Many of the union leaders and pilots believe that, as well.

I think CS would do well to have their current situation protected with a written contract which comes with an amendable date. I also think the pilots there would fare better with a strong group dedicated to presenting their side in any disagreement with the company. It is commonly recognized that there is safety in numbers. The only fair and accurate way to find out what the majority of CS pilots want is by taking a vote. The decision should be theirs.

Standing by my posts,
Netjetwife

 

[SCT]

NJW, Where did I over state what you said? I quoted you directly, that " your husband can easily fill in for management." Well mamm, there are lots of folks that could easily fill in for your husband. Like I said before, what I, your husband, and the rest of the NJ pilots do is not rocket science.

You are very arogent and pompious. I have alot of respect for NJ pilots but none for you.
.

 

[SCT]

Also, your friend accused me of being management. Let me ask you this question. Are you being paid by the union?

 

[sikntired]

SCT,

I do believe that you are a corporate pilot and NOT in management at some frac operation...it just sounded as though you could be though! You are correct...I don't fly airplanes and frankly, just recently got over my fear of flying. Yep, my husband is a pilot and I was afraid of flying. Friends and relatives found that hilarious.

I find it a bit sad that you downplay the attributes and education required to be a GOOD pilot. You keep saying that it "isn't rocket science" and there are plenty of people available to do what NJW's husband & you do. Yes, that's true and upper management types love to let that be known to their "widgets". Quite a position of power to hold, isn't it? "Listen here Joe Pilot, we've got lots of guys like you lined up waiting for your job...it's not rocket science you know". Wimpy Joe is supposed to say, "My bad! Please, please let me stay...I'll work for peanuts...I'm just happy I gots me a job".

We're (Netjets pilots & families) saying that those days are over, that's all. My husband has always liked his job and moving on to someplace else wasn't the brightest thing to do, as so many people on this board keep saying. "If you don't like where you work, move on". NO. There was some serious tweeking that needed to be done and Strong Union did it. We're just saying get on the train because we've got it moving and it's only going to increase its speed.

The time has come for frac pilots to band together and receive just compensation for what they do and who they do it for. As for the UAW and the auto industry...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Being a member of IBT 1108 is no more like being a UAW union member than me standing in a garage makes me a car.

I'm sorry that NJW's and my posts torque a few people off. We are not pilots, and we are NOT paid union promoters/organizers. (NJW *could* be a detective though...seriously) I do think that we both understand the repercussions of the fractional business more than you give us credit for. I happen to have this thing about anybody that messes with my family. Netjets messed with my family and I didn't take it lightly. I got interested in reading the pilots message board so that I could *try* to understand what my husband was dealing with, which also affected me. Wouldn't I be a dope to NOT be interested in a battle that lasted for years and would ultimately affect my life? NJW and I became friends when a wives board was created just for NJ spouses/girlfriends...yes, there are a whole bunch of NJW's and sikntired's out there. I happen to like this board as well, because, well, it's like a car wreck...you've just got to look. (You've got to admit that it's interesting.)

It *is* difficult to figure out who's who on here, and why they're pushing their agenda. I'm very aware of the angst that other frac pilots and their families are going through, and that's really why I'm here now. I'll keep reading, but will try to stay out of the fray.

I'm still sikntired

 

[netjetwife]

SCT, my friend didn't accuse you, she asked you. Feel free to answer the question negatively, if such is the case. When sides are being drawn, it is natural to want to know who's with you and who's against you. She must have felt unsure of where your sympathy lays.

You claim that you quoted me directly, but that isn't correct. I copied the quote from my post---"AT NJ there is a lot of talent among the pilots. My husband, and others, could easily fill in for members of management. How many of them could fly the planes? " You have overstated what I said by leaving out other talented pilots and narrowing a wide field of managerial positions to top management.

Another example of overstating what I said--"But you're on here spouting off like the unions are going to save the world". Many NJ pilots and/or their spouses can testify that 1108 has made a positive difference in their lives. I have stated that I think the other frac pilots can accomplish the same thing by standing up for themselves. No one can do that for them. 1108 can advise them, but they must be willing to fight their own battles. It all begins by casting a vote in favor of representation. That is an individual action, for all the impact it has on their fellow pilots. The pilots ARE the union, and as such, they have the power to save themselves.

As for my being "arogent and pompious"? I think that a truly arrogant, pompous person wouldn't even bother responding to your posts. I do so because of my strong sense of fair play, which compels me to set the record straight. I also hold strong convictions that the frac pilots need to stand up to corporate greed and demand to be treated/compensated like the professionals they are.

Respect for NJ pilots--finally, something we can agree on. The NJ pilots have raised the bar; unfortunately, there are some (like yourself and Avbug) that haven't raised their own sights high enough to see it, yet.

In the interest of giving respect where respect is due, I'd like to add to the list, those pilots at FltOps and Flex that are courageous enough to stand with the NJ pilots in their fight for fairness. Hopefully that list will continue to grow as more pilots recognize the need for change in the fractional industry.

 

[avbug]

It all boils down to basic fairness. Your insistence on seeing only one side of the issue tells me which side you're on.

I'm on no side. I am sick to death of seeing you glob onto any post and turn it into a union festival. Your monotony was deathly sickening with all the netjets crap, I got sick of hearing it in FBO's across the country, and you can't keep your poison to netjets threads...you take it on the road with a burning desire to infect everybody. Shut up, already.

You're not a pilot. You're not management. You're a poison pen partner of a pilot with a bug up your backside and a firm belief that you have a right to dominate every conversation that comes up here, arguing to the death your right to be right. You're not right, nor do you have tat right.

But at least you see which side I'm "on."

The honest employees have been doing their best, considering the growth in the industry. The frac pilots have ALREADY EARNED a raise.

Of course, madam. And the world owes you a living. You betcha.

Earned that raise by working hard. Just the bare minimum to stay employed, but...still really hard. Sitting in that cockpit, flying point to point, letting that mighty autopilot work so hard. Being brave, getting the coffee, ice, and papers...that ought to qualify as hazard pay. Ought to merit workers comp for the paper cuts one might get. Earn, dick. Earn. See dick earn.

I find this part of your post offensive (and personally hurtful) as it makes light of the very real tragedies some families have been forced to endure. Two NJ families have had to face the murder--by gunshot--of a loved one.

Are you trying to tell me that netjets had two of their pilots murdered, shot to death? Or did you merely throw that in there to cloud the issue. If two pilots were murdered, what has that to do with the company, unless the company ordered it? Is it your assertion that Netjets caused the death of gunshot of two pilots in their employ? Your true colors are showing.

You are demanding a performance level of many frac pilots that is over-qualified for the salary.

We wouldn't want those heroes to chip a fingernail, or anything. Ouch. Poor, overqualified slaves. I am demanding too much performance, by suggesting that a pilot should give his best. My heart bleeds. It really does. You're making me misty.

If a worker is paid for 8 hours a day, then the worker should give his or her all during those eight hours. If a worker is already giving 100%, then clearly paying the worker more will not elicit better or more work, because the employee is already doing his or her best. There goes bonuses and commissions, which are considered staples among many industries!

Once again, taking the concept of "the world owes me a living" to a whole new level. Bonuses are, by definition, extras. Incentives, if you will, but the worker who believes that he is owned a bonus is a bloody idiot. the audacity of demanding a gift is utterly ridiculous, and at best, exceptionally pompus. Regardless, if a worker is already giving his or her best, then he or she is incapable of giving more. Increasing pay cannot increase productivity, thugh it may do wonders to express appreciation..

The worker who refuses to give his or her best, at any time, is a cheat, and dishonest. The worker who hires on at a known wage and then does not deliver his or her all because he or she feels the wage is insufficient has gained and kept employment by fraud. The worker who refuses to do his or her level best until receiving gifts and bonuses lacks honor, and integrity.

But a person's "best" might be far more than the job requirement and the salary.

Salary is irrelevant. If a persons best is "more" than the job requirement, the person should still do their best. What utter foolishness to always seek the minimum. That is not professionalism. No law prevents you from seeking excellence. Only a very poor craftsman won't make the effort.

The fact that you preach and are proud of mediocracy speaks more volumes about your agenda and character, as well as your glutony and greed than any number of replies could ever say. Your attitude disgusts me, you disgust me...that's all I have to say on the subject and this thread.

 

[RoughAir]

All this crap about NJA and its wife. I just want to read about Avantair, which is what this topic was originally about.

 

[learflyer]

Whatever. I happen to love the ladies who are sticking up for us frac pilots. At least (before ibt 1108 came around ) somebody is!!

 

[On Your Six]

All this crap about NJA and its wife. I just want to read about Avantair, which is what this topic was originally about.

I'll second that. These threads drift so easily... Can we get back to talking about Avantair?????????

 

[DO-82 driver]

Who????

 

[learflyer]

I'll second that. These threads drift so easily... Can we get back to talking about Avantair?????????

This is in a way still talking about avantair. You guys will see soon enough that you will be talking about the same union stuff as we are!!

 

[angryoneincher]

Regardless of what you're paid, if your clients are noticing that you aren't motivated, you have a problem.

Everybody would like more pay. You would like it. I would like it. Wouldn't we all? But having just read that post, I have to say I'm more than a little disgusted at the lack of professionalism that would lead a pilot to work for a company and not give his or her all. If clients are noting that pilots aren't performing at peak, then one can't blame the matter on management. If you are working at less than your best, either step it up and do your job as a professional, or get out and go somewhere else.

Keep plugging away for the benifits and wages you seek...I'll applaud you all the way. But do your job...you should be doing the same job you agreed to do, and were hired to do as a professional aviator, w(h)eather you're earning ten bucks a day or a thousand.

I've been involved in wage disputes and such issues before, when certainly the pay level could (and did) come up...but one constant for me has always been that added pay could never improve my performance. I was already doing my best, and paying me more couldn't make me perform better. I would be deeply ashamed if I learned that clients, customers, passengers, management, or fellow pilots believed I was performing sub par or acting at a lesser level...regardless of my pay, benifits, relations with mangement or the company, etc.

I see your point. You are making the point that things are bad enough even the customers get it. I get that. But one should be embarassed that the customers notice, because it means the pilots who get noticed aren't doing their job. Make your point with the company. Sign your cards, don't sign your cards. Complain, send letters, negotiate, bargain. Discuss. Do whatever you must to make yourself heard or accomplish your aims, as your conscience will allow...but if you're being paid to do a job, and you've agreed to do that job...do it and do your best.

I'm not part of your management, and my comments here don't represent a need nor desire to sway you to do this or that. I am posting because the comment detailed above disgusted me...that the client is noting a lack of "motivation," period. Be a professional. Fight for your cause, whatever it may be, but don't let that impact your craftsmanship, your ability to do your job.

You ARE a professional, are you not?

Avbug,

If you would learn to read, you would notice that it wasn't my performance that was being called into question. I do not know who the pilots were that this owner was referring to. I, like you, do my best every day in spite of pay and other issues. However, when quality of life is in the toilet and pilots have a tough time paying bills and saving for retirement because they're getting paid squat for what is supposed to be a professional position, I do not blame people for becoming disillusioned. And yes, I AM a professional- lot of good it does me- at least in this company. That's why my resume is on the street.

 

[angryoneincher]

Earned that raise by working hard. Just the bare minimum to stay employed, but...still really hard. Sitting in that cockpit, flying point to point, letting that mighty autopilot work so hard. Being brave, getting the coffee, ice, and papers...that ought to qualify as hazard pay. Ought to merit workers comp for the paper cuts one might get. Earn, dick. Earn. See dick earn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that mighty autopilot will fly you staight into a mountain or a tower, if you dont watch what it's doing. And if you dont care that the guy handing you your Subway sandwich makes about as much as an Avantair pilot, fine. Just stay out of this thread then. You're part of the problem.

 

[country]

For all the pissing and moaning about unions,mgt,pay,the color of the sky,taste great less filling....bla..bla..bla...do us all a favor.

If you have a burning passion to argue for your side, spread the gospel and tell the world about your charter in life (union or mgt) then by all means please post your contact name and number so those who are interested can call you direct regarding pro union or pro mgt issues. Lets stop hiding behind the vail of the web and get down to the brass. Otherwise would you folks kindly, please quit jumping into threads and turning it around to your direction. It is becoming a waste of time.

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