Avantair

[Grizz]

GEX -

You're an idiot. Netjetwife is exactly who she claims to be. A wife of one my closest friends at NetJets. There are a ton of NetJets pilots on here that know exactly who she is. Hell - PM me your phone number and I'll explain all the facts of life to you. Then you can go back to your Global Express as an enlightened idiot at least.

 

[angryoneincher]

Angry, don't doubt for a minute that management IS "working on it". What the pilots don't get to hear, however, is WHAT they're working on. The truth is, they're working on their plans to keep paying the pilots as little as they can get away with, including your benefits. As long as you're flying the airplanes and the grumbling is low enough in volume not too disturb them, nothing will change. They're pros at stringing people along. Just look at how long the NJ pilots put up with it until they dug in their heels and followed the lead of SU. If the owners/managers of the frac companies had respect for pilots, they'd all have professional compensation packages and schedules that balanced their work and personal lives. QOL issues would be a company priority, not just a pilot concern. Nothing will improve at the frac companies until the pilots force management to meet their demands. Management sees no reason to change a system they find satisfactory. The promising statements they make are only to keep the complaints down and the status quo firmly in place. Until the pilots take a stand and fight back, their futures are as empty as those endless promises that are never delivered.

you dont have to convince me

 

[Grizz]

By the way GEX -

Sikntired and netjetwife are both wives at Netjets and they are friends. What a tool.

 

[netjetwife]

Oh please, not again!

Obviously, you didn't do a search on my name. I suggest you read my early posts on this board, made before there was even an 1108 or SU. If you had bothered to do that, you'd know that Hawkered and I had plenty of posts made on the opposite sides of the NJ debate. He didn't have the benefit of the front row seat that I have, and was slower to believe that SU was really all that I bragged about. His strong support is a welcome surprise.

It is human nature to be excited about winning a hard fought battle. Actually, given the number of NJ pilots and their spouses, I'm surprised there aren't more of us posting here. Maybe they're all still busy buying new homes, cars, etc and treating themselves to a few of the nice things they went without while they fought for what they deserved. As for SNT, I first "met" her on the NJ board and became good friends when we formed an online support group for the spouses. We met in person at Omaha.

The NJ pilots know who I am and how involved my husband is. My absence from the board was explained. I was fighting a personal battle for justice. My family is waiting to see if the promises we were given by the prosecutor will be kept. That particular struggle is so heart-breaking that I use the union fight to renew my hope that uphill battles can be won. Go back and read some of my early posts and you'll find that I have been trying to get the other frac pilots to stand up for themselves long before the actual card drive began. I simply have strong convictions and don't mind speaking out about them. There are serious issues affecting real families.

A real wife with a serious interest,
LB/NJW

 

[avbug]

Then he said, " Now I know why the Avantair pilots dont always seem too motivated. I wouldn't be even as nice as you guys are for the money you make."

Regardless of what you're paid, if your clients are noticing that you aren't motivated, you have a problem.

Everybody would like more pay. You would like it. I would like it. Wouldn't we all? But having just read that post, I have to say I'm more than a little disgusted at the lack of professionalism that would lead a pilot to work for a company and not give his or her all. If clients are noting that pilots aren't performing at peak, then one can't blame the matter on management. If you are working at less than your best, either step it up and do your job as a professional, or get out and go somewhere else.

Keep plugging away for the benifits and wages you seek...I'll applaud you all the way. But do your job...you should be doing the same job you agreed to do, and were hired to do as a professional aviator, w(h)eather you're earning ten bucks a day or a thousand.

I've been involved in wage disputes and such issues before, when certainly the pay level could (and did) come up...but one constant for me has always been that added pay could never improve my performance. I was already doing my best, and paying me more couldn't make me perform better. I would be deeply ashamed if I learned that clients, customers, passengers, management, or fellow pilots believed I was performing sub par or acting at a lesser level...regardless of my pay, benifits, relations with mangement or the company, etc.

I see your point. You are making the point that things are bad enough even the customers get it. I get that. But one should be embarassed that the customers notice, because it means the pilots who get noticed aren't doing their job. Make your point with the company. Sign your cards, don't sign your cards. Complain, send letters, negotiate, bargain. Discuss. Do whatever you must to make yourself heard or accomplish your aims, as your conscience will allow...but if you're being paid to do a job, and you've agreed to do that job...do it and do your best.

I'm not part of your management, and my comments here don't represent a need nor desire to sway you to do this or that. I am posting because the comment detailed above disgusted me...that the client is noting a lack of "motivation," period. Be a professional. Fight for your cause, whatever it may be, but don't let that impact your craftsmanship, your ability to do your job.

You ARE a professional, are you not?

 

[GEXDriver]

You are incredibly naive if you think that NetJetsWife is anything other than a paid Teamster's union organizer who has created an elaborate fiction to support her/his activities on behalf of the union.

Hawkered is another. They both appear anytime there is an organizing effort then disappear when their propaganda efforts are no longer required.

...and of course, how could I have forgotten Grizz. As always setting the bar high with his combination of ad hominem attacks, general thuggery and attempted intimidation. No facts as usual, just unsupported allegations spoken loudly as if that makes them true.

The only thing surprising about you, Grizz, is that you're a former Air Force officer - most have more character.







.

 

[Grizz]

Yawn.

One thing they taught us in the Air Force was to face the facts when we're wrong. Obviously you haven't learned that yet. It's a shame.

My offer still stands, fire me a number big man and I'll call you. Hell - I'll three way you into netjetwife so you can actually talk to her. Of course, then you'd have to admit you're wrong. I'm betting you don't take me up on it knucklehead.

 

[netjetwife]

Avbug, being a professional pilot can be accomplished with or without a smile. Treating the pax politely can be done with or without motivation. I find it offensive that you'd get disgusted about a situation you weren't there to witness and don't have enough facts about to justify your critical attitude. Perhaps that particular pax was seeking information and appreciated the candid discussion he had with the pilots. It could be that his comments on motivation were based on his deeper knowledge of the situation and not on surface appearances.

During the NJ pilots contract battle I advised them to JUST EARN THE PAYCHECK. We all knew that didn't require much effort. If the company wants pilots that go above and beyond the basic requirements then they need to pay more attention to treating them respectfully and compensating them like the professionals they are. You claim not to be taking sides, but if the pilots followed your line of thinking the company would never have a reason to change their treatment of them. When astute pax observe that the pilots aren't pleased with the situation, that should reflect badly on management--not the pilots. Those pilots have every right to try to improve the place they're at rather than be forced to move on. Those who quit just prolong the problem, leaving fellow pilots to deal with the situation. Labor trouble causes low morale. Managers know that. If they're willing to risk pax noticing that the pilots aren't motivated, it's because they are failing at their job and are focused on short-term gain rather than long term productivity.

 

[netjetwife]

...and of course, how could I have forgotten Grizz. As always setting the bar high with his combination of ad hominem attacks, general thuggery and attempted intimidation. No facts as usual, just unsupported allegations spoken loudly as if that makes them true.

The only thing surprizing about you, Grizz, is that you're a former Air Force officer - most have more character.

What unsupported allegations? That we're friends? That Griz works closely with my husband? That he also knows Sickntired? Those are easy. We all met on the board and then in person at Omaha. Griz and my husband are both leaders in 1108. We all feel strongly about the issues we post about. Those who know us aren't surprised at all. Griz is just one of a number of former AF officers who have stepped up to lead the NJ pilots. No one in the group questions his character or dedication to the pilots AND their spouses.

 

[avbug]

Avbug, being a professional pilot can be accomplished with or without a smile. Treating the pax politely can be done with or without motivation. I find it offensive that you'd get disgusted about a situation you weren't there to witness and don't have enough facts about to justify your critical attitude.

Oh, NJW, my comments were never made regarding something I knew nothing about, nor regarding a situation whence I was never present. My comments, and my disgust (which offends you so greatly) are based strictly and only on what was posted here. We can only go by the words of the poster, and it is the words themelves which disgust. Beyond that, further affiant saith naught.

You advise others to do the minimum, to do their job. My advice and my condemnation is that those who do not do their utmost and their best are liars, cheats, and fools, and poor practioners of their craft. You take the job, you do your best, regardless of the pay. Period. Anything less is shear dishonesty. You adovcate dishonesty, do you?

During the NJ pilots contract battle I advised them to JUST EARN THE PAYCHECK. We all knew that didn't require much effort.

Do the minimum to get by. Don't stand out. Don't do your utmost, don't do your best. Not until they pay you more. Not until you get what you want. Be average. Do the minimum. Just do what you have to do to keep your job, nothing more...after all, why be a professional?

You call that a tactic. I call that dishonesty.

 

[Jolimon]

I am all about bashing management, but didn't some fairly significant raises just go through? From talking to several people on the inside, these discussions have been going on since the new owner came into town. I am not about to hand my future over to netjetwife!

 

[Jim]

I am all about bashing management, but didn't some fairly significant raises just go through? From talking to several people on the inside, these discussions have been going on since the new owner came into town. I am not about to hand my future over to netjetwife!

I normally stay out of the Avantair threads since I haven't worked there for a couple of years but.....YOU ARE MANAGEMENT! Quit trying to pretend you're not.

 

[netjetwife]

Oh, NJW, my comments were never made regarding something I knew nothing about, nor regarding a situation whence I was never present. My comments, and my disgust (which offends you so greatly) are based strictly and only on what was posted here. My point exactly, Avbug! We can only go by the words of the poster, and it is the words themelves which disgust. We were told that an owner found it amazing that the pilots were as nice as they are given the circumstances, and that disgusts you?! Beyond that, further affiant saith naught. Fine. I, personally, thought you had over reacted as it was.

You advise others to do the minimum, to do their job. My advice and my condemnation is that those who do not do their utmost and their best are liars, cheats, and fools, and poor practioners of their craft. You take the job, you do your best, regardless of the pay. Period. Anything less is shear dishonesty. You adovcate dishonesty, do you? What a warped viewpoint! According to your logic, workers should put in 12 hours a day even if they are only paid for 8. They should keep working until they're tired, regardless of how long they were scheduled to work. Is that what you think? Aren't you forgetting that the notion of an honest day's work was based on the understanding that the worker was given a fair wage? What I am suggesting to the pilots is that their companies will never feel the need to pay them professional salaries if they're able to get it all for blue-collar wages. As you are turning this into a moral discussion, I propose that management is being dishonest when they mislead pilots during interviews and continually make false promises after they take the job.


Do the minimum to get by. Don't stand out. Don't do your utmost, don't do your best. Not until they pay you more. Not until you get what you want. Be average. Do the minimum. Just do what you have to do to keep your job, nothing more...after all, why be a professional? Professional pilots are paid to get the pax from point A to point B, safely. Period. They are not paid to be excited about the job. The company hires others to do scheduling. Pilots aren't required to cut short their break time just because the pax showed up early. Frac pilots are paid to make the catering available to the pax. If the hotdogs come still in the package, uncooked, it's not the pilot's job to use the FBO grill to cook them. (true example)

You call that a tactic. I call that dishonesty.

I disagree. Here's an example of dishonesty--the flight crew tells the pax they haven't finished their lunch break when they had actually used the full hour (or whatever agreed upon time they had coming to them).

I am advising that pilots be safe and civil. That is what you are paid to do. That is the professional skill you were hired for. Too many frac companies want their pilots to fix the mistakes others make from scheduling to catering. They want you to run yourselves ragged and give them unquestioned loyalty while they treat you like a machine and pay you far less than you are worth. I call that exploitation.

 

[avbug]

According to your logic, workers should put in 12 hours a day even if they are only paid for 8.

?????????????????????

Negative. Your words, and these serve to cloud the issue. I said no such thing.

According to my logic, workers should put their full attention and energy to the job to which they were hired, regardless of the wage paid. Or they should seek another job. If a worker is paid for 8 hours a day, then the worker should give his or her all during those eight hours. If a worker is already giving 100%, then clearly paying the worker more will not elicit better or more work, because the employee is already doing his or her best. According to my logic, no worker should ever give less.

If a pilot is employed to operate under Part 135, then that pilot should be giving his or her best for eight hours, ten hours, or fourteen hours, such as the job may require on any given day.

We were told that an owner found it amazing that the pilots were as nice as they are given the circumstances, and that disgusts you?!

Do you have such trouble understanding the English language? Of course it disgusts me. That the client/owner noticed anything amiss at all is a problem. But that really wasn't the quote now, was it?

Then he said, " Now I know why the Avantair pilots dont always seem too motivated. I wouldn't be even as nice as you guys are for the money you make."

That the owner concerned himself with identifying with the "niceness" of the pilots is irrelevant...that the owner noticed that "Avantair pilots don't always seem too motivated" IS the point. READ.

Aren't you forgetting that the notion of an honest day's work was based on the understanding that the worker was given a fair wage?

Aren't you forgetting that the employee agrees to the wage before being hired, and knows the score before one iota of work is ever demanded of that employee? Would you submit that an employee, knowing the wage offered and the work demanded, should perform at a lower level until the employer coughs up more dough? I submit that the employee should give his best at all times. By accepting employment, one has entered a verbal contractual agreement to provide his or her best in exchange for the wage. For those under a Salary, that employee has agreed to provide those services for that rate. Period.

If the employee feels the wage unfair, then why did the employee take the job in the first place? If the employee took the job feeling the wage unfair, and then performs accordingly, this represents an act of dishonesty on the part of the employee, who has agreed to work for the wage.

If the employer offers a wage and then lowers it, this is dishonesty on the part of the employer. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about clients who notice that employees are unmotivated, and it is you that suggests such behavior is justified because the employee is not paid enough. By fiat, one may infer that you suggest the employee will perform better if paid more...but as noted already, an honest employee who is doing his or her level best cannot be made to perform better with an increase in wage, because he or she is already providing max effort.

An employee who does not provide his or her best for the agreed wage is dishonest.

Professional pilots are paid to get the pax from point A to point B, safely. Period. They are not paid to be excited about the job.

I am paid to accomplish my mission, whatever it may be on a given day. That may be moving passengers, it may be applying chemical to objects from an airplane, it may be any number of assignments. If I'm not excited to be there and deeply sincere about providing a professional service, then I should get out. Trouble is, I AM exicted about my job. Good Lord, woman. I'm paid to fly...and every day I thank God for it. Of course I'm excited about my job. If the day ever comes when this ceases to be the case, then I'll find something else to do. But I don't imagine that will happen.

I'm paid not for getting people from A to B, but for professional judgement.

I'm paid for good customer service. I'm paid for the sweat and very high price I've paid over my lifetime to posess the certification and skills to do the job. I'm paid for my time. I'm paid for my ability to satisfy each customer with whom I come in contact. This may be Air Traffic Control. It may be an ancy, angry government representative. It may be a passenger.

If a passenger needs me to walk her dog, I'm excited to do it. If a passenger arrives early and wants to go, I'm excited to do it. If someone wants to see my aircraft, I'm excited to show it to them. If I need to fly eight hours in severe turbulence in the smoke and ash with no chance to stop for lunch or take a break, I'm excited to do it. If I'm the guy that's stuck chugging around the pattern with a student in a little piston airplane, you don't have to ask me twice...I'm there. And excited for the chance to both teach, and enjoy the student's learning experience.

A lifetime of flying thus far, and it isn't dull, and yes, I look forward to every chance I get to strap on an airplane, no matter how routine, no matter how agressive, no matter how whatever...the day or the mission might be. I might not ever get another chance with whatever time I have left, and I don't want to miss a moment of it. Not ever. So speak for yourself...of course you can't do that...because you're not a pilot. Hmmm.

What I am suggesting to the pilots is that their companies will never feel the need to pay them professional salaries if they're able to get it all for blue-collar wages.

Quite possibly so...but who's the schmuck that agreed to work for those wages in the first place? Hmmm?

Too many frac companies want their pilots to fix the mistakes others make from scheduling to catering. They want you to run yourselves ragged and give them unquestioned loyalty while they treat you like a machine and pay you far less than you are worth. I call that exploitation.

Assuming you could count yourself as the exploited (you can't)...you're talking about volunteering for exploitation. Who was it, exactly, that put the gun to the head of the "exploited," and forced him or her to take the job through which he or she is being "exploited?"

Regardless...sing to me softly again, and tell me all about how any of this justifies giving a subpar performance...one such that it catches the attention of a paying passenger.

Justification is the narcotic of the soul...sounds to me like you might just be an addict.

 

[Safetycheck]

Hey HAWKERED>>>

Then what are you all waiting for..get on with it! Send in your cards and show 'em you're serious!!

Let's Go Avantair!!!

Git 'r Done!

Can I ask WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE....

Netjetwife and others,

We don't want to discourage any ongoing efforts on the part of the many fractionals to join us, but we can only do so much with the resources we have available.

I hate to admit this, but we have to slow down just a little bit so that we can get FLOPS and Flexjet established, before we can really give the other groups as much support as they need. Our resources are being used wisely, but there are only so many hours in a day. Together with this, we need to maintain the integrity of the new contract at NJA.

Thanks to everyone for all of their support of the Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots.

I thought your union was too busy to deal with the little guy.

 

[Safetycheck]

Omg

NetJetWife,

Shouldn't you be hanging upside down in the attic?

Dilligaff

Muahhaahahaha.

OMG. That is a classic Dilligaff.

_____________________________

Ok, on topic here. Netjetwife, you got a problem with garbage men and truck drivers? You saying they do not deserve to make what they make?

I detect a hint of animosity towards those who make good money, management included. You want low paid management types??? because remember, according to the logic on display here, you GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Would you like the management of your company to be fresh out of college? Competent, gifted management types, CEO's, entrepreneurs, etc are worth their weight in GOLD. Strong innovative companies are the backbone of this economy, of this country. They SHOULD be paid generously. Your hubby wouldn't be in this industry if it werent for the innovator of the fractional industry and others who are constantly refining how business is done. The pilots are here because of management, and the jobs will remain provided there is competent and active management who should be generously compensated.

Getting back to the garbage man and the truck driver, I know you are using those examples as an illustration of how absurd it is to have a low paid pilot. I cant help but notice however that by using those examples you are inferring that they are overpaid for what they do, and that is just not right.

 

[ilikecheese]

Haven't seen much about Avantair lately. Just wondering if anything new (rumor or real) is going down these days.

If your a mute, send in your resume. If you open your mouth and actually state the facts over at that place, your guaranteed to get fired. (A la EU and DH).

 

[netjetwife]

Safetycheck, those were 2 examples from previous debates that came to mind. I could give you a list of other workers, as well, that are paid more than many pilots. You were only correct in thinking that I used the examples to show how UNDERpaid pilots are. I was not saying the other workers are OVERpaid. I hope that clarifies the issue for you. As far as management goes, we've all seen ridiculous salaries that weren't justified by the results. Companies are often top-heavy with people who don't perform half as well as pilots who are paid only a fraction (fractional industry has 2 meanings, it seems) of a manager's salary. In any aviation company the pilots are the backbone--not management. AT NJ there is a lot of talent among the pilots. My husband, and others, could easily fill in for members of management. How many of them could fly the planes? How can you possibly think that it's acceptable for a pilot's family to qualify for government assistance? Yet that happens. Our son qualifies for the "poor kid" lunch program at his public school, based on FO wages. Too many frac families can share stories of how shocked people are to learn how low the pay is. That needs to end. Fairness demands it. I expect pilots to be paid fairly--like the professionals they are!

 

[SCT]

First off, I'm not a fractional pilot and should not even be posting on this thread.

But Mrs. NetjetWife, why did your husband accept the job if he knew what the position was paying? You act like NJ "owes" your husband a job. NJ does not owe your husband anything. And vice versa, your husband does not have to work for NJ. You keep talking about how pilots are professional and are underpaid....First off, who let you decide the pay scale? And not the capitalistic market? Second, we are professionals, but what we do is not rocket science. You state that your husband could do the job of most managers at NJ. That is a very pompious and arogent statement to make. I'm an intelligent person with a college degree but there is no way I could do the job that the CEO does for my company (F100). I wish you and your family the best but you need to come off your soap box.

 

[sikntired]

~sigh~

OK, here's the deal. My husband accepted a job with Netjets 7 years ago. He told me that the pay was pitiful, but the new contract was 'right around the corner'. He was told at his interview that there would be a significant pay increase. Follow me? He believed what he was told and felt that flying for Netjets could prove to be a decent career choice. Don't EVEN start with me about him being a fool to believe what he was told. In a civilized society, one tends to believe and trust what they are told during an interview by both management and line pilots...especially coming from a heavy hitter like Netjets. Only a crooked operation would do otherwise, wouldn't you think?

Crawl forward 6 and a half YEARS and keep turning that big ol' corner, and the Netjet pilots FINALLY got their contract. Not because upper management felt that it was the 'right thing to do'.....nooooo, they hired a union busting firm to help them continue to pay the pilots the insulting, low pay that they were used to paying and break everyone's moral. FUD. Fortunately for the NJ pilots, it didn't work. Netjets spent a whole lotta jingle to some outside firm, rather than 'do the right thing'.

Negotiations didn't move one inch until the pilots dumped their affiliation with Local 284 and formed their OWN union specifically FOR pilots, run BY pilots. We're still under the Teamsters umbrella, which has advantages, *but* we have much more control of our destiny with Strong Union 1108.

NJW and I, along with other NJ pilots that post on this board KNOW what most of the pilots from other fracs are going through. What is so difficult to understand about our desire to alleviate other pilots from going through what we went through? It sucked, and I wouldn't wish the treatment that management played on the NJ pilots on anyone. That's why we post. We're *trying* to encourage frac pilots to understand that things don't have to go the way their company management is telling them it has to be. Do you have a clue as to how much money "those people" make? How about the waste that continues hour after hour without any accountability? It's UNREAL.

As for the shame that someone on here tried to put on a pilot who's pax mentioned the "down" attitudes...Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that every pilot, during EVERY flight, is doing his/her job at 100%??? There isn't much room for error, is there? Smoking holes come to mind when I think of a pilot doing a half-azzed job. During contentious negotiations, many pilots just did their 100%....going the extra mile and doing their typical 150% just wasn't giving them enough return on their investment. Call it a bad attitude or whatever...they still got the job done safely and efficiently.

I still contend that many of the pilots wives that I know (NJW is one of them), could more effectively run the operations in the Puzzle Palace...even without some fancy degree. (I'll be hearing from Familyguy, CMHtroll, and a few others I bet...they disappeared after the contract was settled, so you tell me exactly who is a paid shill on here). It doesn't require a degree in anything to understand and execute an operation that could and *should* be run efficiently. Some people "get it", and some don't. A degree doesn't guarantee that a person has common sense either. I live next door to a college professor and he doesn't know that you're supposed to shut the storm windows in the winter. Real smart guy.

Am I the wife of a pilot? Yes. Are you part of management? I'm just wondering. Do I really care if other frac pilots jump on board with IBT 1108? Not really, because I think that we've got enough on our plates to deal with, but that's just me. I can't stand the thought of other pilots and their families living through many years of struggle because someone from "on high" says there's no money. It only makes sense that all frac pilots *should* be on the same page and work together towards realistic goals. I don't believe for one minute that many of the frac companies discussed on this board will offer a reasonable salary with QOL issues taken into account without a monster fight. We're here to offer encouragement to the people who are being toyed with by the people that they work for.

I'm glad that truck drivers and sanitation department people (garbage guys) get paid well. Do ya think that *maybe* someone who flies human souls for a living should *maybe* be paid accordingly? The money is there, don't insult anyone's intelligence about that. The FACT that many FO pilot's families qualify for reduced school lunches is a crying shame.

Factor in the time, money, energy and investment in your flying certifications, as well as the time building, flight instructing, low paying stepping stone jobs, and/or military service, then working for a frac company and being away from home for half of each year, making jack shi#, and then tell me that you don't deserve to be paid well. C'mon.

The time has come to take a stand and be treated and compensated like the professionals that you are.

I'm still sikntired

(sorry NJW, I've got a bad attitude about corporate greed, and can't get myself to change my name)