Avantair

[netjetwife]

?????????????????????

Negative. Your words, and these serve to cloud the issue. I said no such thing. Word for word, no you didn't. But a person's "best" might be far more than the job requirement and the salary. Think of the expression "over qualified for the job". You are demanding a performance level of many frac pilots that is over-qualified for the salary.

According to my logic, workers should put their full attention and energy to the job to which they were hired, regardless of the wage paid. Obviously, the pilots are doing that based on the safe, timely arrival of the pax at their destinations. Or they should seek another job. Why should they do that when they can make improvements at the one they have? If a worker is paid for 8 hours a day, then the worker should give his or her all during those eight hours. If a worker is already giving 100%, then clearly paying the worker more will not elicit better or more work, because the employee is already doing his or her best. There goes bonuses and commissions, which are considered staples among many industries! Go ahead and take the whole idea of the "carrot approach" while you're at it, but I don't think students of human nature will agree with you. According to my logic, no worker should ever give less. I notice that you conveniently fail to mention the responsibility of the owner to fairly compensate the worker. In this perfect world of yours, the worker would be handsomely rewarded for giving 100%, surely? What happens when the worker is paid only 50% of what his skills/labor is worth? You'd have him quit. I say stay and fight for what you're worth.

If a pilot is employed to operate under Part 135, then that pilot should be giving his or her best for eight hours, ten hours, or fourteen hours, such as the job may require on any given day. Unless they are fatigued, at which point, a professional does not fly. Working under stressful conditions for a company that doesn't respect its workforce has a negative impact on the morale and health of those workers. That fact has been well documented across the years and throughout the economy.

Do you have such trouble understanding the English language? Resorting to personal insults rather than debating the subject academically? That's nothing new; you're not the first, nor will you be the last. That tactic doesn't work with me. Of course it disgusts me. Given the tone of your post, that is to be expected. That said, it doesn't mean I agree with your viewpoint. That the client/owner noticed anything amiss at all is a problem. That the pax was clearly going out of his way to gather information on a subject which most never address, must be taken into account. Based on his interest, it would be reasonable to assume that he was more observant than the average pax. It could well be that he made a habit of having in-depth discussions with each flight crew and was therefore privy to information that others didn't have. Given the paucity of our knowledge of the situation, your strong emotional reaction seems unwarranted, and perhaps even suspicious.

But that really wasn't the quote now, was it? The quote was available for anyone interested to read. I was simply sharing my thoughts regarding your post. Is that another veiled slight against my integrity? Typical of your side.

That the owner concerned himself with identifying with the "niceness" of the pilots is irrelevant...How can it be irrelevant? That is the very behavior that you are demanding of a professional pilot. How curious that you fail to give credit where it is due. that the owner noticed that "Avantair pilots don't always seem too motivated" IS the point. READ. Yes I did. I read and saw a big gap of missing information. How often is "don't always"? That could have been very few times. "Seem" is a totally subjective term, as is "too". Both may have been used as a result of thinking in hindsight after learning more about the problems the pilots were facing. What you want to dismiss as "irrelevant", is the MAIN point of the statement. That being, the owner's sympathy was for the pilots--not management. He clearly felt that they were being UNDERpaid and expressed the opinion that they were OVERperforming for the salary they were given, when he said, "I wouldn't be even as nice as you guys are for the money you make."


Aren't you forgetting that the employee agrees to the wage before being hired, and knows the score before one iota of work is ever demanded of that employee? I know that my husband was misled during his NJ interview when he was promised a quick upgrade and told a big raise was just around the corner. He was not the only one. It is a dishonest practice that has been mentioned by others, as well. The phrase "broken promises" is too often heard in the frac industry. READ the board. Would you submit that an employee, knowing the wage offered and the work demanded, should perform at a lower level until the employer coughs up more dough? I suggest that the frac pilots do only what they are paid to do--fly the plane. They are not responsible for solving the problems caused by the mistakes of others in the company, be it a mx problem, unrealistic scheduling, or sub-par catering. I submit that the employee should give his best at all times. I suggest that they demand to be treated and compensated like the professionals they are. By accepting employment, one has entered a verbal contractual agreement to provide his or her best in exchange for the wage. For those under a Salary, that employee has agreed to provide those services for that rate. Period. The frac pilot is being paid to safely fly the plane and provide a basic standard of services to the pax. Period. A huge part of the problem is their lack of a written contract, and attitudes like yours--demanding that the pilots give only 100% while management is excused for paying them only a fraction of what they're worth. Unbalanced, unjust systems are prone to failure. Break down in the morale of the workforce is a warning that smart managers heed, especially if they are doing their best, and earning the salary.

to be continued....

 

[netjetwife]

Note: I didn't quote all of Avbug's post due to its length and redundancy.


If the employee feels the wage unfair, then why did the employee take the job in the first place? If the employee took the job feeling the wage unfair, and then performs accordingly, this represents an act of dishonesty on the part of the employee, who has agreed to work for the wage. This has been covered by many others, in depth. Search and read. The acts of dishonesty cannot be blamed on the pilots who are the victims of countless unkept promises by management. "Foot-dragging" is another infamous phrase that frac pilots are too well acquainted with, along with "shell-game".

If the employer offers a wage and then lowers it, this is dishonesty on the part of the employer. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about corporate greed and excuses. You want to focus on an isolated event which you know very little about it, as you weren't there to obtain a full understanding of what transpired. clients who notice that employees are unmotivated, That really wasn't the quote now, was it? By your own standard, you're being dishonest. and it is you that suggests such behavior is justified because the employee is not paid enough. By fiat, one may infer that you suggest the employee will perform better if paid more...Human nature dictates that employees who are treated with respect and compensated fairly make better motivated, productive workers.but as noted already, So you do realize that your post is redundant and most will not read all of it? an honest employee who is doing his or her level best cannot be made to perform better with an increase in wage, because he or she is already providing max effort. It would appear that you equate workers with machines. The honest employees have been doing their best, considering the growth in the industry. The frac pilots have ALREADY EARNED a raise. Their companies have been stringing them along with excuses and promises just to enable them to continue UNDERpaying the pilots. The IOUs are being called in and it is time to pay up. Verbal contracts are open for negotiation at any time and American workers have the right to form a union to represent their interests.

An employee who does not provide his or her best for the agreed wage is dishonest. Your emphasis on honesty points to a hidden agenda. Many of us who have followed the pilots' struggle closely have encountered this type of posting before. With your "shoot the messenger" attitude, your purpose for posting is easy to guess at. Let management sit down with 1108 and work out the details of an agreed upon--in writing--wage and we will revisit the subject of motivation and pilot performance.

Assuming you could count yourself as the exploited (you can't)...you're talking about volunteering for exploitation. Who was it, exactly, that put the gun to the head of the "exploited," and forced him or her to take the job through which he or she is being "exploited?" I find this part of your post offensive (and personally hurtful) as it makes light of the very real tragedies some families have been forced to endure. Two NJ families have had to face the murder--by gunshot--of a loved one. The extremism was uncalled for.


Regardless...sing to me softly again, and tell me all about how any of this justifies giving a subpar performance...one such that it catches the attention of a paying passenger. It all boils down to basic fairness. Your insistence on seeing only one side of the issue tells me which side you're on.

Justification is the narcotic of the soul...sounds to me like you might just be an addict.[/quote] Rationalization is used by those who seek excuses for their conduct...sounds to me like you lack the courage to stand up for your self, your peer group and their families. Luckily, I think you, Avbug, are in the minority when it comes to frac pilots.

 

[SCT]

Mamm,

"Are you part of management? I'm just wondering."

Like I stated before, I'm just a corporate pilot and should not be posting on this thread since I'm not a Frac pilot and have no interest one way or another what happens w/ Fracs and unions. Are you a union rep? Yes. Do you strap your ass to a plane like I do? No.

I'll be the first to admit that the fractional pilots are way underpaid and over worked. I'm glad they got a raise. But for NJW to spout off that her husband could run the company better then NJ is ridiculious and arogent. It leads little credability to your crusade. You guys act like you are out to save the freaking world. Are you saying that you can operate a company better then Warren Buffet?....because I'm sure he doesn't hire idiots that can't perform. Maybe you, NJW, and your spouses should go start a company if you're so knowledgeable.

Once again, I'm glad all of you NJ pilots received a raise and I have no problem with the rank and file. But like I stated before NJW needs to come off her soapbox!

 

[netjetwife]

First off, I'm not a fractional pilot and should not even be posting on this thread.

But Mrs. NetjetWife, why did your husband accept the job if he knew what the position was paying? You act like NJ "owes" your husband a job. NJ does not owe your husband anything. And vice versa, your husband does not have to work for NJ. You keep talking about how pilots are professional and are underpaid....First off, who let you decide the pay scale? And not the capitalistic market? Second, we are professionals, but what we do is not rocket science. You state that your husband could do the job of most managers at NJ. That is a very pompious and arogent statement to make. I'm an intelligent person with a college degree but there is no way I could do the job that the CEO does for my company (F100). I wish you and your family the best but you need to come off your soap box.

The reasons my husband took the job have all been covered in previous posts. Suffice it to say, he likes the job--and thanks to SU/1108--he can now afford to keep it. They "owe" my husband a job? Hardly. I think their darn lucky to have him, though! The NJ pilots, with input from their spouses, voted on the payscale. As NJA is the largest frac company, that means that the capitalistic market is at work in the industry. Management is not just a small group as you seem to think. There are quite a few managerial positions at NJ that my husband is well qualified for due to his AF background. I didn't mention "CEO"--you did. The "soap box" analogy is your opinion which is not shared by all who read this board or post here. I believe that the majority of frac pilots, outside of NJ, are underpaid/overworked. Let the voting decide.

 

[SCT]

Like I stated before, I'm glad the NJ pilots received a pay increase. But you're on here spouting off like the unions are going to save the world. This is comparing apples to oranges.....but the whole UAW thing is working real well for the auto industry isn't it? Do you think CS should go to a union? If so keep on drinking that union CoolAid.

I still think its arogent to state that your husband "can easily fill in for management." You want respect from them and you make statements like that? And like I said before, we are professionals as pilots but what we do is not rocket science...

I stand by my statements.

 

[netjetwife]

"I'm still sikntired

(sorry NJW, I've got a bad attitude about corporate greed, and can't get myself to change my name)"

I think you have the right attitude. In light of the fight that still continues in the industry, I have decided that you're name makes sense, my friend. Our side has raised the bar, but too many other frac families are still coming up short. As if that's not bad enough, do we want their low wages and less desirable QOL used against us at the table 4 years from now? The other frac companies have their own leaders quite capable of forming a SU within their ranks. When a group has enough will and determination to fight, giving them advice and encouragement may be all it takes to make a difference. I think 1108 can easily do that, in spite of their busy agenda. We'll all be better off if each Strong Union is a part of a strong industry.

 

[netjetwife]

SCT, there are a number of NJ pilots who have skills and experience in other areas that would allow them to hold managerial positions. You are overstating (twisting) what I said. I never claimed they could run the company, but I have no doubt that there are many middle-management jobs some of the NJ pilots could do because they have had such jobs in the past.

Save the world? More exaggeration. You are putting a spin on my posts that is your own entirely. I have suggested that 1108 has the potential to change the fractional industry. Many of the union leaders and pilots believe that, as well.

I think CS would do well to have their current situation protected with a written contract which comes with an amendable date. I also think the pilots there would fare better with a strong group dedicated to presenting their side in any disagreement with the company. It is commonly recognized that there is safety in numbers. The only fair and accurate way to find out what the majority of CS pilots want is by taking a vote. The decision should be theirs.

Standing by my posts,
Netjetwife

 

[SCT]

NJW, Where did I over state what you said? I quoted you directly, that " your husband can easily fill in for management." Well mamm, there are lots of folks that could easily fill in for your husband. Like I said before, what I, your husband, and the rest of the NJ pilots do is not rocket science.

You are very arogent and pompious. I have alot of respect for NJ pilots but none for you.
.

 

[SCT]

Also, your friend accused me of being management. Let me ask you this question. Are you being paid by the union?

 

[sikntired]

SCT,

I do believe that you are a corporate pilot and NOT in management at some frac operation...it just sounded as though you could be though! You are correct...I don't fly airplanes and frankly, just recently got over my fear of flying. Yep, my husband is a pilot and I was afraid of flying. Friends and relatives found that hilarious.

I find it a bit sad that you downplay the attributes and education required to be a GOOD pilot. You keep saying that it "isn't rocket science" and there are plenty of people available to do what NJW's husband & you do. Yes, that's true and upper management types love to let that be known to their "widgets". Quite a position of power to hold, isn't it? "Listen here Joe Pilot, we've got lots of guys like you lined up waiting for your job...it's not rocket science you know". Wimpy Joe is supposed to say, "My bad! Please, please let me stay...I'll work for peanuts...I'm just happy I gots me a job".

We're (Netjets pilots & families) saying that those days are over, that's all. My husband has always liked his job and moving on to someplace else wasn't the brightest thing to do, as so many people on this board keep saying. "If you don't like where you work, move on". NO. There was some serious tweeking that needed to be done and Strong Union did it. We're just saying get on the train because we've got it moving and it's only going to increase its speed.

The time has come for frac pilots to band together and receive just compensation for what they do and who they do it for. As for the UAW and the auto industry...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Being a member of IBT 1108 is no more like being a UAW union member than me standing in a garage makes me a car.

I'm sorry that NJW's and my posts torque a few people off. We are not pilots, and we are NOT paid union promoters/organizers. (NJW *could* be a detective though...seriously) I do think that we both understand the repercussions of the fractional business more than you give us credit for. I happen to have this thing about anybody that messes with my family. Netjets messed with my family and I didn't take it lightly. I got interested in reading the pilots message board so that I could *try* to understand what my husband was dealing with, which also affected me. Wouldn't I be a dope to NOT be interested in a battle that lasted for years and would ultimately affect my life? NJW and I became friends when a wives board was created just for NJ spouses/girlfriends...yes, there are a whole bunch of NJW's and sikntired's out there. I happen to like this board as well, because, well, it's like a car wreck...you've just got to look. (You've got to admit that it's interesting.)

It *is* difficult to figure out who's who on here, and why they're pushing their agenda. I'm very aware of the angst that other frac pilots and their families are going through, and that's really why I'm here now. I'll keep reading, but will try to stay out of the fray.

I'm still sikntired

 

[netjetwife]

SCT, my friend didn't accuse you, she asked you. Feel free to answer the question negatively, if such is the case. When sides are being drawn, it is natural to want to know who's with you and who's against you. She must have felt unsure of where your sympathy lays.

You claim that you quoted me directly, but that isn't correct. I copied the quote from my post---"AT NJ there is a lot of talent among the pilots. My husband, and others, could easily fill in for members of management. How many of them could fly the planes? " You have overstated what I said by leaving out other talented pilots and narrowing a wide field of managerial positions to top management.

Another example of overstating what I said--"But you're on here spouting off like the unions are going to save the world". Many NJ pilots and/or their spouses can testify that 1108 has made a positive difference in their lives. I have stated that I think the other frac pilots can accomplish the same thing by standing up for themselves. No one can do that for them. 1108 can advise them, but they must be willing to fight their own battles. It all begins by casting a vote in favor of representation. That is an individual action, for all the impact it has on their fellow pilots. The pilots ARE the union, and as such, they have the power to save themselves.

As for my being "arogent and pompious"? I think that a truly arrogant, pompous person wouldn't even bother responding to your posts. I do so because of my strong sense of fair play, which compels me to set the record straight. I also hold strong convictions that the frac pilots need to stand up to corporate greed and demand to be treated/compensated like the professionals they are.

Respect for NJ pilots--finally, something we can agree on. The NJ pilots have raised the bar; unfortunately, there are some (like yourself and Avbug) that haven't raised their own sights high enough to see it, yet.

In the interest of giving respect where respect is due, I'd like to add to the list, those pilots at FltOps and Flex that are courageous enough to stand with the NJ pilots in their fight for fairness. Hopefully that list will continue to grow as more pilots recognize the need for change in the fractional industry.

 

[avbug]

It all boils down to basic fairness. Your insistence on seeing only one side of the issue tells me which side you're on.

I'm on no side. I am sick to death of seeing you glob onto any post and turn it into a union festival. Your monotony was deathly sickening with all the netjets crap, I got sick of hearing it in FBO's across the country, and you can't keep your poison to netjets threads...you take it on the road with a burning desire to infect everybody. Shut up, already.

You're not a pilot. You're not management. You're a poison pen partner of a pilot with a bug up your backside and a firm belief that you have a right to dominate every conversation that comes up here, arguing to the death your right to be right. You're not right, nor do you have tat right.

But at least you see which side I'm "on."

The honest employees have been doing their best, considering the growth in the industry. The frac pilots have ALREADY EARNED a raise.

Of course, madam. And the world owes you a living. You betcha.

Earned that raise by working hard. Just the bare minimum to stay employed, but...still really hard. Sitting in that cockpit, flying point to point, letting that mighty autopilot work so hard. Being brave, getting the coffee, ice, and papers...that ought to qualify as hazard pay. Ought to merit workers comp for the paper cuts one might get. Earn, dick. Earn. See dick earn.

I find this part of your post offensive (and personally hurtful) as it makes light of the very real tragedies some families have been forced to endure. Two NJ families have had to face the murder--by gunshot--of a loved one.

Are you trying to tell me that netjets had two of their pilots murdered, shot to death? Or did you merely throw that in there to cloud the issue. If two pilots were murdered, what has that to do with the company, unless the company ordered it? Is it your assertion that Netjets caused the death of gunshot of two pilots in their employ? Your true colors are showing.

You are demanding a performance level of many frac pilots that is over-qualified for the salary.

We wouldn't want those heroes to chip a fingernail, or anything. Ouch. Poor, overqualified slaves. I am demanding too much performance, by suggesting that a pilot should give his best. My heart bleeds. It really does. You're making me misty.

If a worker is paid for 8 hours a day, then the worker should give his or her all during those eight hours. If a worker is already giving 100%, then clearly paying the worker more will not elicit better or more work, because the employee is already doing his or her best. There goes bonuses and commissions, which are considered staples among many industries!

Once again, taking the concept of "the world owes me a living" to a whole new level. Bonuses are, by definition, extras. Incentives, if you will, but the worker who believes that he is owned a bonus is a bloody idiot. the audacity of demanding a gift is utterly ridiculous, and at best, exceptionally pompus. Regardless, if a worker is already giving his or her best, then he or she is incapable of giving more. Increasing pay cannot increase productivity, thugh it may do wonders to express appreciation..

The worker who refuses to give his or her best, at any time, is a cheat, and dishonest. The worker who hires on at a known wage and then does not deliver his or her all because he or she feels the wage is insufficient has gained and kept employment by fraud. The worker who refuses to do his or her level best until receiving gifts and bonuses lacks honor, and integrity.

But a person's "best" might be far more than the job requirement and the salary.

Salary is irrelevant. If a persons best is "more" than the job requirement, the person should still do their best. What utter foolishness to always seek the minimum. That is not professionalism. No law prevents you from seeking excellence. Only a very poor craftsman won't make the effort.

The fact that you preach and are proud of mediocracy speaks more volumes about your agenda and character, as well as your glutony and greed than any number of replies could ever say. Your attitude disgusts me, you disgust me...that's all I have to say on the subject and this thread.

 

[RoughAir]

All this crap about NJA and its wife. I just want to read about Avantair, which is what this topic was originally about.

 

[learflyer]

Whatever. I happen to love the ladies who are sticking up for us frac pilots. At least (before ibt 1108 came around ) somebody is!!

 

[On Your Six]

All this crap about NJA and its wife. I just want to read about Avantair, which is what this topic was originally about.

I'll second that. These threads drift so easily... Can we get back to talking about Avantair?????????

 

[DO-82 driver]

Who????

 

[learflyer]

I'll second that. These threads drift so easily... Can we get back to talking about Avantair?????????

This is in a way still talking about avantair. You guys will see soon enough that you will be talking about the same union stuff as we are!!

 

[angryoneincher]

Regardless of what you're paid, if your clients are noticing that you aren't motivated, you have a problem.

Everybody would like more pay. You would like it. I would like it. Wouldn't we all? But having just read that post, I have to say I'm more than a little disgusted at the lack of professionalism that would lead a pilot to work for a company and not give his or her all. If clients are noting that pilots aren't performing at peak, then one can't blame the matter on management. If you are working at less than your best, either step it up and do your job as a professional, or get out and go somewhere else.

Keep plugging away for the benifits and wages you seek...I'll applaud you all the way. But do your job...you should be doing the same job you agreed to do, and were hired to do as a professional aviator, w(h)eather you're earning ten bucks a day or a thousand.

I've been involved in wage disputes and such issues before, when certainly the pay level could (and did) come up...but one constant for me has always been that added pay could never improve my performance. I was already doing my best, and paying me more couldn't make me perform better. I would be deeply ashamed if I learned that clients, customers, passengers, management, or fellow pilots believed I was performing sub par or acting at a lesser level...regardless of my pay, benifits, relations with mangement or the company, etc.

I see your point. You are making the point that things are bad enough even the customers get it. I get that. But one should be embarassed that the customers notice, because it means the pilots who get noticed aren't doing their job. Make your point with the company. Sign your cards, don't sign your cards. Complain, send letters, negotiate, bargain. Discuss. Do whatever you must to make yourself heard or accomplish your aims, as your conscience will allow...but if you're being paid to do a job, and you've agreed to do that job...do it and do your best.

I'm not part of your management, and my comments here don't represent a need nor desire to sway you to do this or that. I am posting because the comment detailed above disgusted me...that the client is noting a lack of "motivation," period. Be a professional. Fight for your cause, whatever it may be, but don't let that impact your craftsmanship, your ability to do your job.

You ARE a professional, are you not?

Avbug,

If you would learn to read, you would notice that it wasn't my performance that was being called into question. I do not know who the pilots were that this owner was referring to. I, like you, do my best every day in spite of pay and other issues. However, when quality of life is in the toilet and pilots have a tough time paying bills and saving for retirement because they're getting paid squat for what is supposed to be a professional position, I do not blame people for becoming disillusioned. And yes, I AM a professional- lot of good it does me- at least in this company. That's why my resume is on the street.

 

[angryoneincher]

Earned that raise by working hard. Just the bare minimum to stay employed, but...still really hard. Sitting in that cockpit, flying point to point, letting that mighty autopilot work so hard. Being brave, getting the coffee, ice, and papers...that ought to qualify as hazard pay. Ought to merit workers comp for the paper cuts one might get. Earn, dick. Earn. See dick earn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that mighty autopilot will fly you staight into a mountain or a tower, if you dont watch what it's doing. And if you dont care that the guy handing you your Subway sandwich makes about as much as an Avantair pilot, fine. Just stay out of this thread then. You're part of the problem.

 

[country]

For all the pissing and moaning about unions,mgt,pay,the color of the sky,taste great less filling....bla..bla..bla...do us all a favor.

If you have a burning passion to argue for your side, spread the gospel and tell the world about your charter in life (union or mgt) then by all means please post your contact name and number so those who are interested can call you direct regarding pro union or pro mgt issues. Lets stop hiding behind the vail of the web and get down to the brass. Otherwise would you folks kindly, please quit jumping into threads and turning it around to your direction. It is becoming a waste of time.

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