Avantair Hiring

[-FlyAuburn-]

Yeah, start in the mid $60's, make money for a couple of years and get furloughed. Makes sense? Not to me...

Again you are not quite getting the point. NetJets didn't ( and wouldn't have) furlough(ed) because they were paying new F/Os 60k a year. They furloughed because they were huge and the economy tanked and the market could no longer bear it's size and growth. If the market could still bear 3300 pilots or whatever the number was, then paying F/Os 60k a year would not have put a dent in it.

Why people still think we furloughed because we pay "too much" is still beyond me. It's that kind of thinking that I'm talking about that has/is/will continue to bring the profession down. I'm sorry but when you can make more to start driving a truck than flying an airplane (the skill and education don't even come close in matching up) then something is VERY wrong. Something is even more wrong when pilots think that it is ok because they need to "help grow the business".

The "35k a year so my company can grow" crap is straight from management. A more respectable starting salary might be 45k+, and would be easily doable even in the current market.

My situation sucks, but I'll be damned if I am going to do the same job I did at NJA for 60k (more like 80 if you factor in all the extras) for 35k a year. It was already hard not seeing my family half of the year, but it's down right not even worth it at that pay.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Well...Continental pays $27K to start. You could try there..oh wait. They have over a hundred on furlough too.

Good luck. Too bad Avantair sucks too much for you. There must be some job out there that will start you at 60K. Let us know what you find.

Glass, I never said Avantair sucks. Please don't put words in my mouth. I think you guys definitely have a good thing going. I just completely disagree with the starting salary. And I wouldn't try Continental either for the very same reason, but I'm not sure that number is accurate. I'll have to ask my friends that work there.

You guys are basically flying jet equivalent airplanes doing the exact same job. You (and even your new hires) should be compensated accordingly.

It's great that your company is hiring. That is a good sign for the industry as a whole.

It's just my personal opinion that 35k/year is NOT ok for a fractional pilot new hire when the stated minimums are 2500+ hours and the "competitive" minimums are much higher.

Maybe if the minimums were 500 hours like the regionals, and Avantair didn't care about turnover or it becoming simply a stepping stone to a better paying job, I would understand the pay. That is the problem NJA had and the reason why there was an IBB.

Again, just my personal opinion.

 

[HOMER D POE]

Avant Air has a nitch...Nitch companies have always done well in downturns.. NJ is a huge company with massive market share... even the slightest hiccup would require an action..nothing personal to pilots, but cutting costs is cutting costs and the guy he brought in did it somewhere else..Hatchet men enjoy their jobs. they thrive on misery... things are turning around so maybe it won't be bad. AA's business model probably wouldn't support higher pay..it's still a Tprop under 12,500. nothing wrong with that... all the best!

 

[HazMat]

Guys don't be silly. 5 year pay at AvantAir is comparable to netjets due to the upgrade times. Yes you have to suck it up in the first year or two but that is by design. It is a terrific place to work and you are downright crazy if you have the oportunity to pass it up. Guys who have been here 7 years are bringing home 6 figures this stuff about pay is just wrong. The model works you have to earn it though it is not handed to you

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Guys don't be silly. 5 year pay at AvantAir is comparable to netjets due to the upgrade times. Yes you have to suck it up in the first year or two but that is by design. It is a terrific place to work and you are downright crazy if you have the oportunity to pass it up. Guys who have been here 7 years are bringing home 6 figures this stuff about pay is just wrong. The model works you have to earn it though it is not handed to you

From AirlinePilotCentral:

Now obviously I don't work at AA, but I do work (for now) at NJA and the numbers on this site for us are dead on. Also, I don't know what the upgrade times are at AA, but I would venture a guess that in the current economy they are stretching out longer than they have been in the past.

I see that a 5 year F/O makes 43,000? Not terrible but that is after 5 years! Still doesn't seem right....

Somebody made an argument that they were "only" turboprops etc. I disagree with that mentality. I have seen the airplane and the numbers on it's capabilities and it is basically a jet. Also, if you crash the thing the people get just as dead as in a Beechjunk.

All I have been saying is that for 2500 hour mins and 5000 competitive, just to get in the door, the first year pay should reflect that experience level. That is the only point I'm trying to make.

NJA finally figured that out and so did the other fracs. I'm sure AA management is using the economy and the growth factor as a reason to keep F/O pay low, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[lowspeed]

im a two year fo and im going to clear 45 with a bit of overtime and straight three yr pay is 44k

 

[jonjuan]

im a two year fo and im going to clear 45 with a bit of overtime and straight three yr pay is 44k

You only have to suck it up for the first year or two according to hazmat which I take to mean you will upgrade your third year.

 

[HazMat]

Correct. I have no clue what the upgrade time is at NetJets a captain there told me 10 years. So you are comparing fo pay at netjets to captains pay at AvantAir from year three until you upgrade at netjets.

 

[wacoflyr]

Whenever somebody suggests that they Know when specific upgrades will take place, I wince. No one knows. If somebody asks, the only honest answer is that nobody knows. Any other answer is sunshine. The economy dictates, and we dance to the tune.

 

[FO 4 Life]

As an outsider, you can't compare NJA pay to Avantair for one reason. Time.

NJA started in the 60's. Avantair started in 2003.

I don't know when NJA signed their contract with the current rates, but I'm sure it took longer than the 6 years Avantair has been in business.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

As an outsider, you can't compare NJA pay to Avantair for one reason. Time.

NJA started in the 60's. Avantair started in 2003.

I don't know when NJA signed their contract with the current rates, but I'm sure it took longer than the 6 years Avantair has been in business.

You can't compare the pay based on time in business true, but you can compare it based on the stated minimum qualifications for the job(2500tt, etc., same as the rest of the fracs). Based on the pay and the fact that "it has only been in business a short time" and it is "only a turboprop"(not my words), the mins should be around 500-1000 hours.

 

[C425Driver]

From AirlinePilotCentral:

I see that a 5 year F/O makes 43,000?

Nope. The APC information is out of date. FO payscales were increased several months ago and they are getting another bump on January 1.

 

[Willy21]

Correct. I have no clue what the upgrade time is at NetJets a captain there told me 10 years. So you are comparing fo pay at netjets to captains pay at AvantAir from year three until you upgrade at netjets.

I looked at the numbers, considering an f/o at AvantAir for 2 years followed by 8 years as captain, your base salary would be $732,000 over 10 years. At NetJets, considering 10 years as a f/o, your salary would be $697,000 over 10 years. (This is only comparing 7&7 schedules and base aircraft at NetJets, ie no >40,000 lbs catagory)

If you project an upgrade at NetJets for years 11 and 12 the total salary would be $947,000 and AvantAir is $936,000. (AvantAir only has a 12 year payscale so that is why I stopped at year 12)

If you look just at the numbers there isn't much of a difference. The big "IF" is will an AvantAir newhire upgrade in 3 years? NetJets went from ungrades in basic indoc to >4.5 years. (there has not been any upgrades in the past year so this number is growing daily) I hope AvantAir continues to have sucess, but if you are looking for the three year upgrade in my mind you have already missed the boat. This has been proven time and time again to be true. You need to look no further than the unfortunate situation 495 fellow pilots and there familes are dealing with through no fault of there own.

Again, I am not trying to bash anyone, but chasing upgrades, big contracts, new airframes ect. can be be good and also bad at the same time. If it were me looking into flying for AvantAir I would make sure I could make ends meet on f/o pay for 10 years and if an upgrade comes early that is just a bonus.

M. Williams

 

[glasspilot]

You can't compare the pay based on time in business true, but you can compare it based on the stated minimum qualifications for the job(2500tt, etc., same as the rest of the fracs).

You seem hung up on the published mins.

The reality is that there are so few pilot jobs out there, so few companies hiring, and so many pilots looking for work that it really doesn't matter what the mins are. That is why I tongue in cheek said you needed 5 shuttle missions and a landing in the Hudson.

The reality is that there are right now thousands of guys trying to get into a class of 4 at Avantair. If Avantair wanted to they could demand a 757 type with PIC time, time in the SR-71 or F-22 and a letter from a Congressmen who has personally flown with the applicant. With all of those requirements Avantair would still fill the class.

And the pay is 35K. The pay was only 30K when I came and I blew my entire first year pay on legal expenses (long story) and I am still very happy I came here instead of anywhere else.

I may drive over to see the next new hire class just so I can shake the hands of the best pilots in the world. Point is, relax on the whole 2500 TT posted min. It doesnt' really matter does it?

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

You seem hung up on the published mins.

The reality is that there are so few pilot jobs out there, so few companies hiring, and so many pilots looking for work that it really doesn't matter what the mins are. That is why I tongue in cheek said you needed 5 shuttle missions and a landing in the Hudson.

The reality is that there are right now thousands of guys trying to get into a class of 4 at Avantair. If Avantair wanted to they could demand a 757 type with PIC time, time in the SR-71 or F-22 and a letter from a Congressmen who has personally flown with the applicant. With all of those requirements Avantair would still fill the class.

And the pay is 35K. The pay was only 30K when I came and I blew my entire first year pay on legal expenses (long story) and I am still very happy I came here instead of anywhere else.

I may drive over to see the next new hire class just so I can shake the hands of the best pilots in the world. Point is, relax on the whole 2500 TT posted min. It doesnt' really matter does it?

Glass, believe me I get it it. It all has to do with what the market will bear, which isn't much at this point. I guess the point of my original post was in no way meant to bash AA, but to point out that the state of our industry and specifically our profession is very sad. Managers will use opportunities like this to justify lower pay, and we all eat it up because "that's just the way it is" etc. We all deserve more. It's not greed, it's just my opinion on what I know I have personally gone through financially and the sacrifices I've made. The return on investment just hasn't measured up IMO. I'm sure my story is very very similar to the other 494 furloughees at NJA and the rest at every other air carrier. It's just a big downer to be on the street and see another company hiring, but at such a low initial pay rate.